Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Israel and their current place in God’s economy.

Exactly!

There is no reason to insert a personality made up by men to try to explain God. I think it's more the portrayed personality that is objectionable to you than the possibility of a creating force.

Think on this. If all life springs from a central life force. I mean whatever force causes this planet to bring forth life, that life force cannot scientifically be simpler than that which it produces.

You don't know that - maybe it is very simple. You prefer to complicate it with your factually devoid idea of creation, but it falls apart when you consider where your god came from - a more complex god? etc etc

"Life force" appears to be easily reducible to chemistry, not magic.

What is the title of that book? Where can it be bought?

As to Jesus comment on Jonah, as I remember it Jesus was saying the people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah and now a greater than Jonah was there (Jesus) and they repented not.

No and no. I'm just saying portions of the law doesn't apply to me because I don't fit the categories it pertains to. Not a king, not a Levite priest, etc. Never had the opportunity to pour frankincense or olive oil on a sin offering. Never have dealt with a leper and as I said earlier my wife had a hysterectomy so the prohibitions on consorting with menstruating women do not apply to me. Jesus is the one who said the law and the prophets would last as long as heaven and earth do, not me. I'm just living in this world and doing my best to comply with God and Jesus.

But Jesus did not say that. And you are twisting the words that He did say. If there ever was a verse that the Torahists hang their hats on, it’s Matthew 5:18. This verse clearly does not present a clear and unambiguous teaching that the Mosaic Law would last as long as heaven and earth do, as the Torahists claim.

Jesus is clearly teaching that there won’t be even the slightest change in the Law of Moses until some condition is met. Either until heaven and earth pass away, or until all in the Mosaic Law is accomplished, or both. Heaven and earth clearly have literally not passed away. But the Torahists themselves clearly do contortions to try and explain why they are no longer bound by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of commands in the Mosaic Law, as we’ve seen done right here on this thread. So clearly things much more significant than an iota or a dot have already passed from the law. And clearly there have been many changes to the Mosaic Law that resulted from the redemptive work of Jesus Himself.

For example, the sacrifice of animals is required under the Mosaic law to atone for sin. But the New Testament teaches that Jesus was our sin offering “once and for all,” and therefore “there is no longer any offering for sin.” The Law of Moses required a regular offering for sin. The New Testament does not. That alone is a pretty significant change.

Another example, the Mosaic Law required a big curtain in the temple to separate the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place. The Torah describes it as “a veil of blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen. It shall be made with cherubim skillfully worked into it.” But in the New Testament, at the very moment Jesus died on the cross, God Himself ripped that temple veil in two from top to bottom. That’s a pretty significant occurrence, and it’s a pretty significant change.

Another example, the Law of Moses required that all priests come from the tribe of Levi, yet under the New Covenant, Jesus is our High Priest, even though He is from the tribe of Judah. That’s also a pretty significant change.

And Jesus made it crystal clear that He came to fulfill all that was in the Law. And He fulfilled it. He made it crystal clear that He came to accomplish all that was in the Mosaic Law. And He accomplished it. And in doing so, He clearly brought the Law to its pre-planned and pre-designated retirement.

What someone believes doesn't make it so. There is no point in building an Ark and gathering the animals two by two if it's just a local flood.

Hopefully Ringman can give you a link,,, he mentioned it somewhere in this or the other thread.

I saw it as ironic him giving book writing advice...

Kent

You apparently missed the point too. The point is that it doesn't matter in the least if every square inch was covered or if one mountain top was left out.

Job is another one... the lesson of the story is faith through tribulations. Some of the story line seems a bit contrived for the dramatic.

Kent

Joh 19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Done.

DEUT 32 Moses is addressing 'heaven and earth' -- he was speaking to Israel

ISA 51: about v 16 ...I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to [g]establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’” - literal heaven and earth were built/created/existed, whatever, LONG before GOD put words in anyone........... - Sion/Zion = Israel

Isaiah is addressed to 'heaven and earth' -- Israel

Peter said the first 'earth' was destroyed with/by water - literal earth was NOT destroyed.....

Peter says the 'present heaven and earth' are reserved for fire..... literal??? or the earth 'like' the one destroyed by water..... in the flood Moses basically said airbreathing land animals died.....

JESUS said 'until heaven and earth pass away, no part of the Law shall in anyway pass' --- IF any part of the Law has passed, then heaven and earth have passed......

There was an 'earth' destroyed by water, there was or will be an 'earth' destroyed by fire, but yet Peter looked for a NEW 'heaven and earth'......!?!?!?!?!

Antlers: You know how to read and you know heaven and earth have not passed. Jesus has not yet returned and therefore "till al be fulfilled" has not happened. Heaven and earth have not passed away.

Jesus would not have left his remarks about so important a subject open to speculation and interpretation.

And in verse 20 Jesus clearly stated " That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the the scribes and the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven". And after that he goes into a long spiel about the law and makes it plain that the letter of law and more importantly the spirit of the law are to be followed.

I understand folks would like to throw out the most important sentence of the sermon on the mount but alas, it means what it says. There is no code language or ambiguity. This was not a parable with an intrinsic message such as The Prodigal Son where the son was mankind and the father was God and the message was that all God wishes for and requires is repentance (and reform) and return to him.

You twist what Jesus said to fit your theology. Plain and simple.

In Matthew 5:18 Jesus was talking specifically about the Law. He was talking specifically about the fulfillment of the Law. He wasn’t talking about the end of time or His return or anything else. The “till all be fulfilled” was clearly in reference to the Law, and nothing else. And everything in the Law was fulfilled by Jesus.

It’s clear that you want to twist the “till all be fulfilled” into something other than what Jesus said in order for it to fit your theology. That’s your prerogative.

Hastings
Allow me to explain where you have missed it. You are taking the quote "till all be fulfilled." to mean all things. Jesus was not saying that not one jot or title would pass until all things were fulfilled. as in the end of Revelations. Jesus was saying that all the law, every jot and title would stand until all of the LAW had been fulfilled.


The question then becomes has the law been fulfilled? If you understand scripture you know that it has because of the role Jesus played. It's exactly all Jesus accomplished and the reason he died on the cross. Let me explain my friend. Jesus met every requirement of the law by being completely sinless, and yet paying the full penalty just as if he had committed every sin. In this way Jesus both kept the law, and paid the price for not keeping the law for all who trust in him. That's how the law is fulfilled.

Now as to Jesus saying, "Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees". The meaning here is to shock the audience. Those scribes and Pharisees were knownn to be sticklers to all the law and the sacrifices. Jesus was telling them that all their laws wouldn't be enough. They would need his righteousness which exceeded all their best efforts in keeping the law. They would need his righteousness by faith in him.

The biblical flood is described, and if it did not happen as described there is something wrong. The issue isn't about a mountain top being exposed, but that there was no flood as told in the bible.

KJV Genesis 7:19–20 “And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered”.

And 15 cubits is what? Maybe 50 feet, maybe less. The ice age ended. Yes, there was climate change then also. Water from the ocean broke over into what is now the Black Sea and inundated early civilization there. Other similar events happened all over the world. That is why there are legends of a great flood in other societies.

It isn't far fetched to say that an event somewhat like the Noah story happened. A farmer on the shore of the lake that became the Black Sea had a boat that he had recently built and loaded up his family and animals and survived. My family has legends and lore that go back to the early 1800s and tell of how my 3X Great grandparents eloped in Georgia and ended up in Louisiana for the 1810 census. And the older generations told me stories about that which may or may not have been exactly accurate and that was only a little over 200 years ago.

No telling how a story 2000-3000 years old could get a bit romanticized in the retelling.

If all the highest mountains under the whole sky were not covered then God is a deceiver. If God is a deceiver here, how can we trust anything in Scripture?

You mentioned we need to compare Scripture with Scripture to get the correct understanding. Jesus was referring to faith. Abraham believed and it was counted as righteousness. APOSTLE PAUL writes believing results in righteousness. Jesus was telling His listeners to have faith. Something the Pharisees lacked.