The Ancient Israelites were God’s chosen people. Are they still God’s chosen people nowadays ~ Is the current nation of Israel still God’s ‘chosen’ nation…?

Well, against all odds, God brought them back to the Middle East and Israel became a nation in 1948 after 1900 years. Repeated discrimination and pogroms didn't move them but the holocaust finally did. They still reject Christ but they play large in the Bible's eschatology. For that matter, many of the Jews around the world don't follow God, either, let alone Christ. They're secular Jews, with no religion. They've long since lost track of what tribes they belong to but God knows and his prophecies will come true as written. We just don't understand much of it yet. Revelation says that 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes will be sealed. There's a lot of questions about exactly what that means but many Christians believe it means that 144,000 Jews will come to know Christ and will become the greatest missionaries in history.

One of the biggest things I've struggled with concerning the Bible is this very subject. It has been very hard to believe that the Jews are still His chosen people, after the way they rejected Jesus. I'm not an anti'Semite, and I have always supported the nation of Israel in her struggles against the Arab nations that wish to wipe her off the face of the earth. But, given the way that most Jews are politically, especially those outside of Israel, it is hard for me to accept that they are still God's chosen ones. But, nowhere in the Bible does it say that they are not. I guess it's one of those things I'll always have trouble believing.

The nation of Israel is made up of all who accept revelation in its fullness, spiritually in line with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It's certainly not made of up of those who, to this day, applaud the crucifixion of the Son of God. Such are, in fact, excluded from the nation of Israel.

The polity residing in Palestine, referring to itself today as Israel, has nothing whatever to do with the Israel spoken of in Scripture, and its people are better characterized as Israel's enemies, and that by their own choice.

The 144,000 of Revelation is a fixed number, all Jews... John in Rev 7:9 saw another group, UN-countable (constantly changing) - Christians.

Deut 32 GOD tells them what is in store for 'Israel' ..... but verses 44-47 indicates the 'land promise' while 'forever' from GOD, was also conditional as far as Israel's part.

Ephesians 2 explains that there are NO MORE Jews and Gentiles, but that we are all one New Man, much like it was in and shortly after the Garden, either Children of God or children of men......... now it is either In Christ or not... suggest reading Rom 6,7,8....

This allegory is further explained in Galations 3: 15 through gal 4:31 and into chap 5 --- 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

IMHU

So to answer the OP - It seems NO!

I know that Paul said in Romans they are our “enemies” and Jesus called them “synagogues of Satan” ?

I'll wait to hear from God before deciding? I mean if they're his peeps ....?

The way I handle it is I feel its between God and them. I don’t care, and I don’t support organizations that have become fronts for funding Israel in the name of God.

Most especially when they introduce legislation like recently to make it a crime to mention Jesus. Yes, they did !

Does God forsake his people? Did Jesus not reportedly say that he had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

,.and the lost sheep followed Jesus. Those that didn't missed the bus. Basically, God sent the Messiah to show the correct path for Jews to follow. Those who followed the Messiah are the chosen.

If you're a Christian, how can you possibly see it any other way?

Unfortunately, the chosen of the new covenant have largely turned their backs on God these days and their society is paying the price for it as spelled out by the Apostle Paul in Romans 1 starting at verse 18.

So here we are.

If they don’t convert to Christianity, their fate is between them and God. God tells me to Discern and to flee from evil.

Badda-Beep Badda-Bap Badda-Boop Badda-Beep Badda-Bing!

Precisely.

lol. Israel has more spies in the US than any other nation yet we still give then hundreds of millions in aid. Its amazing how dumb, brain washed and blind Americans are to the truth.

I'll take the bait. Isaiah foretold the return of the chosen to their land as did Ezekiel. Isaiah 66, the last chapter of Isaiah tells of the regathering of the people and how all the world will pay homage to Jerusalem.

Sorry, but God has obviously not forgotten his covenant with Abraham and his actual seed.

Notice that even now the Jews are less than 2% of the world population but they control the finance of the world.

Jesus never disowned the Jews and the first Christians were predominately Hebrew. Only after the Roman government took on what they called Christianity were the Jews as a race blamed for killing Jesus.

For the most part the nominal Christianity of today has no relation to the real Christianity of the Hebrew led churches of Israel and Asia Minor.

John 8:42-47,...the Messiah spells it out in plain language who they are that choose not to follow him.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send [or bring] peace, but a sword."

A sword divides.

The first Christians were by far mostly people born as Jews

You can abandon God bit God will never abandon you.

No doubt about it. They were the chosen who followed the Messiah that God sent to them. The rest of them missed the boat.

OK all you Bible interpreters....I don't give rats a-s-s about God's Chosen peeps.

What the better question is " Why do the majority of Jews in the US vote democratic" ?

Because many have eastern European ancestry/backgrounds meaning they're mostly socialists or communists in their beliefs.

Mat 15:22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon."
23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us."
24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table."
28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

Jesus was born as a Jew, all of the disciples were Jews, and he flat out said that he came for the Jews. It was only after the Jews rejected him that he personally tagged Paul to be an apostle to the Gentiles. Then he visited Peter in a vision and told him that he'd made the Gentiles clean and to go to them.

Jesus came to the Jews to fulfil the law they'd lived under for 2000 years. He fulfilled dozens of prophecies written in their own scriptures. The Gentiles had never been under the law. Jesus sent Paul to them with a new message, one of grace, not law. The main thing that tied the Jews to the covenant was circumcision. It preceded the law and was all important to the Jews but when the Holy Spirit led the apostles to the Gentiles, it was no longer required. That's very significant. Paul wrote vigorously against gentiles being circumcised. He apparently believed that they would think they were saved by that rather than by grace. It would lead them toward believing they were saved by a work rather than faith.

Israel will always be God's chosen Nation, presently they have been set aside because they rejected Christ their Messiah, while God is bringing in people of all nations into the Church, once the Church is completed God will again start dealing with Israel, at first it will be through judgment called Jacobs Trouble or the great tribulation, they will go through tremendous difficulties and only one third will survive the persecution by the Antichrist, rest will perish. In their distress they will turn to God and Christ will come to deliver them, then they will recognize the one they disowned and had crucified. They will repent, will be forgiven and they will be built up into a great nation with Christ reigning in Jerusalem for 1000 years.

Context is very important. Read the 11th chapter of Romans.

Jesus was referring to the pharisees as the synagogue of Satan, not all Jews for all time.

Are you wanting to say something? About Fake Jews and that crap?

The Jews were and are the chosen people, even when they stayed. They are not chosen for what they do today, but because of oromises made to Abraham and Israel and Moses. Whether screwing up (which they seem to do more often than not, as we all do), or not.

Promises are promises.

Well then, wrong thread. Start a different one please.

No hijacking please.

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father."

- 1st John, 2:22-23

Forced conclusion: All who deny the Son (referring to the Jews who denied Jesus, and to this day continue to), also deny the Father, and are therefore in league with antichrist.

I believe that is because those are the Jews that have turned their backs against God. They are not religious people

To be fair, it's not just the Jews. A big part of western culture has turned its back on God also. Surprisingly enough, there's a great resurgence of Orthodox Christianity taking place in Russia.

It was big in Ukraine also. But Zelensky has been closing down the churches and persecuting the Orthodox Monks,...as Bolsheviks are prone to do.

No more so than anybody not saved.

Christianity is growing very fast in radical Muslim countries, too. You don't hear about it because it has to be underground. Being a Christian can be a death sentence. There are many Book of Acts type missionaries working under cover in those countries and people are flocking to the truth.

The statement, like many other similar statements (many by Christ himself), referred to Jews in particular. It was only the Jews whose doctrine told them to look for the coming of "the Christ." The statement only makes sense, therefore, in their context. Furthermore, it was only the Jews who claimed to "have the Father," which was the common way of referring to their one God being Yahweh. Not all non-believers (although unsaved) are in league with antichrist. The New Testament is pretty clear that the Jews are that, in particular, and that for denying (and murdering, see 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) Christ.

Might I suggest that watering down the Gospel might seem to you like the "nice" thing to do, but it's actually an expression of hate for those who need to receive it in full concentration.

Read the end of Deut 32, it was conditional.........

How, exactly, do you 'prolong' for ever??????

Joshua also indicated that it was conditional.............

Joshua 32: 14 “Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have [i]been fulfilled for you, not [j]one of them has failed. 15 It shall come about that just as all the good words which the Lord your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you. 16 When you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the Lord will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you.”

Sir, its because they are our “enemies” according to Paul in Romans and “the synagogue of Satan” directly from Jesus.

'Tis a puzzle to me too, you would think reflecting upon the history of the last century, of which they played a rather significant part, they would be the MAGAist of all...........

Any that aren’t Christian

I am curious about the opinion of several members here.

Do you think Jews are inherently evil?

Do you think God's covenant with the Jewish people was annulled?

How would you explain the miracle of the Jewish return to Israel after a 2000 year worldwide dispersal?

Any thoughts on the miraculous 1948 victory of the Jews over the Arab hordes?

Any thoughts on less than 2% of the world population controlling the world's money and finance?

Any thoughts on the fact that a nation smaller than some U.S. counties became a world superpower?

We refer to the Jews as God's chosen people, but never ask,"What were they chosen for? Are they something like teacher's pet with special privileges? Or were they chosen to accomplish something important?" The answer is that they were chosen to be the conduit through which God would bring the Messiah into the world--to provide salvation to the entire world, not just the Jews. They fulfilled that mission through the birth of Jesus, but subsequently failed to recognize it. Now that their primary mission has been completed, they are on an equal playing field with the rest of the world. Accept Christ and be saved, or reject Christ and be lost. No special treatment.

Most ''Christians" are not Christian.

I don’t know man, my Lord said they are, a few other places it says so in the Good Book. Paul said they are the enemies of my faith.

I don’t feel a person that considers themselves “Jews” to be any more “inherently evil” than say a kid diddler, a transgender person, murderers, run of the mill criminals, nor God haters.

The fruit they produce doesn’t seem to swuft !

Its as if they were trying to use a special club card like BLM, or any other victim mentality sub culture.

Jews are descendants of Abraham. God made a pact with Abraham because he listened. First God proved that he could believe in what he couldn't see by leading him away from everything he knew. Then God made special promises to him because he listened. This promise bound both of them. Part of the promise was the sign of circumcision to show the promise carried on to offspring.

Then God asked his blood bound partner to sacrifice his son. Somehow this covenant between them gave God a correct path to have his own supernatural born son, just like Abraham and sacrifice him, just like Abraham.

The purpose of the whole thing was to give God the correct path to save the world through Jesus. That's why Jews are the chosen people and why Jesus gave them first refusal rights.

Bingo! How can a Christian not know this?

It wasn't a choice. Jesus does not meet the description of the promised messiah.

Uck Fisrael

How many self righteous boomer Christians would enthusiastically send their children and grandchildren to go over to Israel and die for them fighting Muslims?

There would be no more guaranteed path to heaven and glory based on your interpretation of the bible

Willing to bet not one

?????

My bad muffin. Meant to include op antlers first post

Yes he did. The Jews, however, developed their own parallel criteria pretending to be authoritative interpretations of Scripture, and then claimed he didn't fulfill those. Those, however, were not revelation, but rather the traditions of men which the Jewish scholars sought to substitute for revelation. Today, these traditions go under the name of Talmud.

''Only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel'' is the tricky part. Add to that, 'think not that I have come to abolish the laws of the prophets.......''

He fulfilled them. On the cross he announced, "It is finished."

Jews refer to their own writing and the prophesy of the messiah as written in what Christianity calls the old testament.

For instance;

Overview: A major issue for Christian theologians is a certain prophecy of Jesus, a prophecy which, by an honest reading,results in the inescapable conclusion that the prophecy failed. While this is usually thrown under the rug, this is a major issue with Christianity.


What is the Messianic Age Meant to Look Like?

According to Jewish scripture, prior to the arrival of the Messiah, there will be a war and great suffering (Ezekiel 38:16), after which the Messiah will bring about a political and spiritual redemption by bringing all Jews back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12, Jeremiah 23:8 and 30:3, and Hosea 3:4-5). Then, the Messiah will set up a Torah government in Israel that will serve as the center of world government for all Jews and non-Jews (Isaiah 2:2-4, 11:10, and 42:1). The Holy Temple will be rebuilt and the Temple service will begin again (Jeremiah 33:18). Lastly, the religious court system of Israel will be rekindled and the Torah will be the only and final law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Furthermore, the messianic age will be marked by the peaceful coexistence by all people devoid of hatred, intolerance, and war — Jewish or not (Isaiah 2:4). All people will recognize YHWH as the one true God and the Torah as the one true way of life, and jealousy, murder, and robbery will disappear.

Likewise, according to Judaism, the true Messiah must

Be an observant Jewish man descended from King David
Be an ordinary human being (as opposed to the progeny of God)

Furthermore, in Judaism, revelation happens on a national scale, not on a personal scale like with the Christian narrative of Jesus. Christian attempts to use verses from the Torah to validate Jesus as the Messiah are, without exception, the result of mistranslations.

Because Jesus neither met these requirements nor did the messianic age arrive, the Jewish view is that Jesus was merely a man, not the Messiah.


https://www.learnreligions.com/jewish-view-of-jesus-2076763

The corrupt Jewish authorities could not be relied upon to correctly interpret scripture in this regard. They were motivated by the desire to preserve their own power over Judea and its people, and considered the Messiah to be a challenge to same.

Speaking to the Jews: "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the Scripture; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life ... There is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me."

It's not a matter of interpretation. What is written gives a clear picture of the role and purpose of the prophesied messiah.

Says you. Everything you wrote is interpretation.

Not much interpretation needed here, I think...........

All good....

DC is Israeli occupied territory. I pointed out to my Mom that her little refrigerator map showing persecuted Christians around the globe conspicuously overlooked Israel and occupied Palestine where they are routinely brutalized along with Muslim Arabs. She wondered why the Palestinian women holding her camel for the photo in Jerusalem were less than hearty in their welcome. Poor Mom, her Jews for Jesus group got the best of her.

Everybody wants to leave out the "fulfilled" part. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law by both keeping it perfectly, and suffering the penalty for breaking it. He did both on our behalf. This is why faith in him justifies the sinner. By accepting Jesus's sacrifice on your behalf, you accept Jesus as having kept the law perfectly and suffering the penalty of not keeping it for you.

This might explain why you disagree with the Apostle Paul....because he explained that the seed of Abraham is Yeshua. And by extension, all who are in Yeshua.

Correct.

I would only add - Not just 'in league with' but -- 1 John :18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

Correct.

And Paul was hallucinogenic. Or an outright liar. And he was disowned by the first Christians.

Which is not much of a testimony......

JESUS was disowned by the Jews.....

Should we reject HIM for their action???

Were Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaiah, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel, Peter, and John also hallucinogenic, or just outright liars???

There are different views. This is the most uncluttered view that I’ve found.

The distorted view seems to make a distinction that leads to a salvation by law in the OT and by Grace in the NT. Yet Abraham, four hundred years before the law was give, was declared righteous and the father of faith. That disproves the view of law based salvation.

Based on Paul’s writings national Israel was a type of the church/body of believers throughout time. Throughout the OT and God flips the the script and always shows the blessing going to the parison/people of promise rather than the person/people of blood or right. An example: Jacob rather than Esau received the blessing.

Paul develops this theme from the OT text showing that it is the is the people of promise rather than the people of birthright. John in the prologue to the Gospel says the same thing in John 1:9-13.

It’s interesting to talk to people who have done missionary work in and around modern Israel. From all appearances it is a fully secularized Godless nation.

The Talmud is POST 70AD. In about 200 AD, the Jews codified their oral traditions in the Mishna. Then, over the next 2 centuries, they added thousands of rules that they called the Talmud. It was an attempt to tell people what God really meant in all of his laws and they got way out of God's intent on many of them.

The Golden Calf ..

And Other Immoral Acts ..

Precisely.

Yep.

As Jesus hung on that cross, he was the most sinful man who's ever lived because he had the entire world's sin on him. It was so bad that even his father burned his back.

Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

He then said 'It is finished'. He'd paid OUR price for us and salvation is now there for the taking merely by believing that Jesus did it and that he rose from the dead.
Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As a written document, it's post 70 AD. As you say, it was oral tradition before Christ appeared, and he condemned it as false teaching while on earth.

The Mishna is the oral part. The Talmud was added after 200AD. It's entirely man written and it got far afield on what God intended for man.

No, they didn't just make it all up in 200 AD. It was precisely the oral tradition that had corrupted and dominated official Judaism going back centuries before the birth of Christ, and is precisely what about Judaism that Christ condemned while on earth.

Much of the Talmud is made up. Here's just 1 example:
2000 years earlier, God told them that they can't boil a kid in it's mother's milk. The Canaanites had a ritual where they'd do that then pour the broth over their fields as an offering to some god to have good crops. God was simply saying to not participate in pagan rituals to other gods.
The writers of the Talmud decided that God didn't tell them everything so they set out to say what God forgot to say.

1st, they went beyond goat meat and it's own mother's milk. They said to not boil any meat in any milk.
then they said to not cook any meat in any pot that had ever had milk in it in case there was some milk residue, and vise versa. They needed separate pots for cooking meat and milk.
then, since meat and milk might mix in the stomach, they couldn't eat meat and milk at the same meal. That soon grew to say they couldn't eat any meat and any milk on the same day.
It kept growing. Modern kosher Jews actually have 2 separate sections of their kitchens, each with it's own set of cookware, separate sinks, counter space, refrigerators, etc. One section is for cooking meat, the other for milk. Any mixing of the utensils, counter space, etc. is forbidden. Some of the more well to do Jews actually have houses with 2 kitchens, one for meat, one for milk.

Now tell me that this isn't man-made.

Jesus speaking to the Pharisees and Scribes: "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

- Mark 7: 8-9

He's speaking of the Talmud before it was codified in written form.

His Father did not 'burn his back.'

Jesus felt as though He was firsaken, because Jesus was fully human (while also fully divine), and did have anxiety and doubt. His suffering means nothing to us unless He suffered as we would. That is why we need not be anxious or doubtful, He took those for us.

This all being part of God's plan to offer us salvation, how could He forsake himself?

Or maybe I misunderstand your post.

I think he meant 'turned'........ not burned...

I believe that should have read "turned his back".

As to the rest of your post. How do you know this?

Bible study, except my last question, which is logic. God can't actually forsake himself.

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

He was reciting Psalm 22. He never believed his Father had forsaken him. He was reciting the Psalms.

If you completely understand Jesus as having suffered in your place, you will understand that he had to suffer everything a lost person would suffer, otherwise the price wouldn't have been paid. Understanding this you know Jesus had to suffer the rejection that all sinners suffer in every way, or you would still owe it.

As to the title of this thread. For some reason the Jewish people held together as a distinct group in almost 2000 years of exile in numerous countries with very little communication ability. They are less than 2% of the world's human population.

Unless there was supernatural (divine) intervention how could they possibly have achieved domination in the world's finance and how could they have regained their homeland Israel against the odds they faced.

Somehow or other in 1948 they were able to expel the British overlords of Palestine get a U.N. resolution on partition and with the help of very few national governments obtain the arms and muster the will to fight off invading murderous Arab armies. I believe than that the just God that rules this universe has a plan for his covenant people as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah outlined.

As a side note the USA as did many nations quickly recognized Israel but did little else. The nation of Czechoslovakia to their everlasting credit armed the Jewish nation and without those arms Israel would have been stillborn.

All this to say no way can I believe the covenant with Abraham and his seed has been annulled or cancelled. Nothing else makes sense no matter what some Christians want to think.

I support what I say. The role and purpose of the messiah is described in the books of Judaism. Which I have quoted and referenced.

There is no need to interpret, the references and descriptions are clear.

Again;

Why has Judaism rejected this claim for 2,000 years?

The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

In gathering of the Jewish Exiles

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

Rebuilding of the Holy Temple

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

Worldwide Reign of Peace

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

Universal Knowledge of G-d

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

A Biblical Portrait of the Messiah

All of these criteria for the Messiah are found in numerous places in the Jewish Bible. One foundational example is in the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28:

“24 And My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them

25 and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers have lived; and they shall live there, they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever; and My servant David will be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant, which I will give them; and I will multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever

27 and My tabernacle shall be with them, and I will be their God and they will be My people.

28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”

Anyone can claim to be the Messiah or a group of people can claim that someone is the Messiah. However, if that person fails to fulfill all the criteria found in the Jewish Bible, he cannot be the Messiah.''

https://jewsforjudaism.ca/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/

No big surprise an atheist would try to discredit Jesus Christ & show support for the antichrist

probably a Talmudian Yid

"Forbid the Whites to mate with Whites. The White Women must cohabit with members of the dark races, the White Men with Black Women. Thus the White Race will disappear, for the mixing of the dark with the White means the end of the White Man, and our most dangerous enemy will become only a memory. We shall embark upon an era of ten thousand years of peace and plenty, the Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world, Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark peoples." - Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich, Emergency Council of European Rabbis (1952)

I don't usually get involved in these threads but I have to say here Plumdumb doesn't understand ANYTHING.

Nothing to do with me.

As you can see the material comes from Judaism. The verses and quotes come from the Jewish religion, their tradition and their own books.

They give their reasons why Jesus does not relate to the promised Messiah and they support their reasons with references to the books of the bible that we call the Old Testament, which are still current for Orthodox Judaism.

WOW! I looked up this ki ke and found more from this speech

"Simultaneously, to demonstrate to Americans the reality of antiSemitism, we will advance through new sources large sums of money to outspokenly antiSemitic elements in America to increase their effectiveness, and WE SHALL STAGE ANTISEMITIC OUTBREAKS IN SEVERAL OF THEIR LARGEST CITIES.

"This will serve the double purpose of exposing reactionary sectors in America, which then can be silenced, and of welding the United States into a devoted anti-Russian unit.

(Note: Protocol of Zion No. 9, para. 2, states that antiSemitism is controlled by them. At the time of this speech they had already commenced their campaign of antiSemitism in Czechoslovakia).

"Within five years, this program will achieve its objective, the Third World War, which will surpass in destruction all previous contests.

"Israeli, of course, will remain neutral, and when both sides are devastated and exhausted, we will arbitrate, sending our Control Commissions into all wrecked countries. This war will end for all time our struggle against the Gentiles.

http://www.whale.to/c/rabbi_rabinovich1.html

The Scriptures you're speaking of don't belong to those identifying themselves as Jewish. When they abandoned Christ (prior to that point, in fact), they abandoned any legitimate claim to authority over scriptural interpretation. From that point onward, their motivations in that regard have been the advancement of antichrist.

Read, e.g., the Gospel of John 8:44.

Amazing how so many of their predictions are spot on.

He suffers from the same malady that most suffered from in first century Palestine...literalization of passages that had the Messiah as a warrior king who would restore national Israel to her prominence. Not a suffering servant who would die to bring His people to a spiritual promised land.

We all stay there (literalizing spiritual things) apart from God's grace.

Jeremiah 22:24 “As I live,” declares the Lord, “even though Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were a signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pull [i]you [j]off; 25 and I will give you over into the hand of those who are seeking your life, yes, into the hand of those whom you dread, even into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and into the hand of the Chaldeans. 26 I will hurl you and your mother who bore you into another country where you were not born, and there you will die. 27 But as for the land to which they desire to return, they will not return to it.

28 “Is this man Jeconiah a despised, shattered jar?
Or is he an undesirable vessel?
Why have he and his descendants been hurled out
And cast into a land that they had not known?
29 “O land, land, land,
Hear the word of the Lord!

30 “Thus says the Lord,

‘Write this man down childless,
A man who will not prosper in his days;
For no man of his descendants will prosper
Sitting on the throne of David
Or ruling again in Judah.’”



That would be any and ALL descendants of Jeconiah..................

So God lied? The covenant with Israel was not everlasting?
All this was an accident? There was no supernatural intervention?

Yes, it's everlasting. However, that's often misstated. God said that it would be everlasting as long as they followed him. They didn't. They followed the pagan gods of Canaan and then they formed what amounts to their own religion, well away from what God set down for them. They refused to accept the messiah that God had promised to them. Jesus tried to lead them back to God and they killed him, as prophesied.
It was the Jews who broke the covenant, not God.

Maybe it was some Jews that rejected Him. Jews lined the road praising Him as he came into Jerusalem the last time and took over the temple. There was apparently a full scale insurrection that week that is not covered in the very brief account of what went on those few days. The Jewish hierarchy and the Roman forces must have brutally put down the uprising. The bible is notable for its brevity in complicated events.

In any case not near all Jews rejected Jesus and the first Christians were Jews both in Jerusalem and Asia Minor (Turkey today).

It is to be noted that the Jerusalem Christians and the Christians of Asia Minor rejected Paul and the Roman church adopted him after some alterations to his letters and the forgery of 2nd Peter.

It was the Roman church masquerading as Christian that disowned the Jews, not God, not Jesus.

The covenant was with Abraham and his seed, i.e., Jesus, and by faith all who are united with him. After the Crucifixion, the covenant continued, but through Jesus and those who are united with him through faith, and no other.

That's the Christian faith. The faith you hold originated with a man named John Nelson Darby, and was popularized by Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, in his Scofield Reference Bible. The heresy they both promoted was called Dispensationalism, and its the heresy you are infected with.

It's heresy to believe God?

So, once again you call Jesus a fool for tagging Paul to be his emissary to the Gentiles. You say that Jesus made a mistake because Paul would be a heretic. You don't seem to know that Jesus is omniscient, all knowing. He knew from the beginning exactly what Paul would do and say. Jesus was apparently too dumb to know that Paul wasn't really the best man to carry his message to us. You have to invent all this crap to convince yourself that Jesus made a mistake.
Jesus told Ananias that he would teach Paul how much he would have to suffer for Jesus' name. He's still suffering today because people like you still reject his message that he got directly from the Holy Spirit.

Act 9:13 But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."

All the various heresies claimed the same. What matters is to have the faith delivered to the Church by Jesus through the Apostles. All else is heresy. Since your beliefs originate with Darby and Scofield, just about a century and a half ago, you can be sure they constitute heresy.

God is not finished with Israel, at least according to God’s Word. Romans 11:25-26. Israel has been partially hardened and temporarily set aside until the completion of the Church, the Body of Christ. Romans 9-11 teaches God’s faithfulness to Israel and destroys any idea that the Church has replaced Israel. The purpose for Israel continues, as God has a sovereign plan. His Word says so.

The promise God made to Abraham 4,000 years ago was sovereign and remains in effect. The old covenants were given to Israel, and all of them were made sovereignly and unconditionally, except for the Mosaic Covenant which was replaced by the New Covenant. God’s unconditional covenants can’t be broken based on man’s actions.

God’s plan is based on His covenants, and His plan is immutable and will not change, Romans 8:29-30. God’s plan for Israel is to restore the land to Israel to the people of Israel; to restore the people of Israel to the land of Israel; and to restore the people of Israel to God. Zechariah 12:10, 13:1, Romans 9:27

The issue with Israel will re-start after God removes the Church, the Body of Christ, from the earth. When Jesus comes the 2nd time, He will establish His kingdom on earth, in which Israel will be the greatest among the nations, Deut 28:13. The kingdom will be fulfilled at the second advent. Israel is God’s people who have an earthly destiny, Matthew 6:10.

EVERYTHING God promised Israel through the covenants will be fulfilled when Jesus returns to set up His kingdom in Jerusalem and rule as David’s greater son, Luke 1:31-33, 20:41-44.

Jesus went to His own, but His own rejected Him. The Gentiles didn’t replace the Jews, but they came along side with them as fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, Ephesians 2:12, 19

God has NOT rejected Israel, Romans 11:2. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew…did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all. Romans 11:11

God promised He will fulfill His promises to the nation of Israel, Ezekiel 36:22-37. Israel continues to be an example of God’s immutability, Malachi 3:6…”for I am the Lord. I do not change; therefore, you are not consumed, sons of Jacob.”

Israel will last FOREVER, according to God’s Holy Word. If God is done with Israel, then God would be a liar. God is not a liar and will keep His Word and His covenant promises to Israel. Almighty God knows what He is doing.

There are two aspects of Jesus' advent to be understood literally: First come as the suffering sacrifice. Second, come as the Conquering Warrior.

Both to be understood literally.

Trying to justify Israel and its history of wickedness through the Bible is absurd. Zionists are radical Jews and the farthest thing from ancient Hebrews who hopped on the monotheism train thousands of years ago. They aren't even blood relatives. The Ashkenazi ruling sect are some of the most intelligent people on Earth, and wealthiest. The fact that the all powerful western central banks are totally controlled - as in owned - by interrelated Jewish dynasties, that determine our future, gives that [bleep] little excuse for a country unlimited capital and moral cover for whatever foul deeds it wishes to commit. They are not Old Testament Christians! They despise Christians but learned long ago how to brainwash their simplistic literal beliefs in Bible stories for boundless sympathy to extract enormous sums of money, and other advantages, pretending to be perpetual victims favored by G_d, while really being amoral, deceitful, unprincipled and vicious. They won't even say His name much less follow His commandments.

Again, with regard to JESUS 'returning' to the earth and physically ruling from a new temple in Jerusalem...........

So, once again you call Jesus a fool for tagging Paul to be his emissary to the Gentiles. You say that Jesus made a mistake because Paul would be a heretic. You don't seem to know that Jesus is omniscient, all knowing. He knew from the beginning exactly what Paul would do and say. Jesus was apparently too dumb to know that Paul wasn't really the best man to carry his message to us. You have to invent all this crap to convince yourself that Jesus made a mistake.
Jesus told Ananias that he would teach Paul how much he would have to suffer for Jesus' name. He's still suffering today because people like you still reject his message that he got directly from the Holy Spirit.



"[/quote= Hastings/]Mighty strange that Jesus publicly called the others and publicly vouched for them but he met Paul out in the desert and gave him an appointment without telling the rest of the apostles about it. And to boot the rest of the apostles figured him out as did the Asian churches and kicked him out. Reckon they were all wrong?

Think about it, Paul had to leave under heavy guard and he himself (if it wasn't forged) said in a letter to Timothy that all the Asian churches had turned away from him. The Revelation of Jesus Christ has some specific messages to the Asian churches but not once does he scold them for forsaking Paul. As a matter of fact he commended the church at Ephesus.

Jeconiah was only king for 3 months and had no children. He was only 18 and totally evil. God squished him like a bug. He was deposed by Nebuchadnezzar and hauled off to Babylon as a captive. Nebuchadnezzar then installed Jeconiah's uncle Zedekiah as king. So, the passage "For no man of his (Jeconiah) descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or ruling again in Judah.’” is true. Jeconiah had no descendants. It can get confusing because he was also named Jehoiachin and that's the more common name used by many historians.

A few years later, Zedekiah rebelled against Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar came back and crushed Judah. Zedekiah was forced to watch as his sons were executed. Then he was blinded and hauled to Babylon in chains. He died in captivity. Judah was left in ruins and it was 100 years before rebuilding was started.

No amount of scripture twisting can change Jesus' words that Paul was his specially chosen man. Period.
Yes, some of the churches turned away from Paul but that was Satan's work. Paul wrote his letters that have come down to us via the Holy Spirit to be the foundation of Gentile Christianity. To fight against that is to fight against the work of the Holy Spirit.

It's nigh unto impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone that rejects the writings of Paul, Luke, and Peter.............

Jeconiah is in the genealogy of JESUS...

You're right. I hadn't caught that. I can only assume it's talking about Jeconiah's human offspring, none of whom ever ruled anything. None of them ever sat on a throne until Jesus.

Talk about straining a gnat to swallow a camel…

Read the whole chapter in context. Why are you cherry-picking and twisting?

Jeremiah 22 is a prophecy of what would happen to Jehoiakim and Jeconiah. They broke covenant with the Lord and practiced apostasy and idolatry, Jeremiah 22:5-9. Jehoiakin committed rapes and murders, Jeremiah 22: 13-17.

Solomon’s line ceased in Jeconiah, Jeremiah 22:24-30. Jehokiam and his son Jeconiah did evil in the sight of the Lord, 2 Chronicles 36:9. The Lord plucked them off, and none of their descendants sit on the throne of David.

Jeconiah’s line was cursed, and Jeconiah was poison. Jeconiah isn’t in the bloodline of Jesus but is in His legal line through Joseph, Matthew 1:16, 11-12. God bypassed Jeconiah’s line and brought Jesus through Nathan’s line, Luke 3:31. Since Jeconiah was toxic, Almighty God made other arrangements because He is God.

Again, why are you splitting hairs over THIS? Speaks volumes…

I did a bit more reading. Jeconiah isn't in Jesus' blood line. He's in Joseph's line, listed in Mathew. While Joseph adopted Jesus, that doesn't change DNA. Jesus' blood line, given in Luke, is through Mary and Jeconiah isn't in it.

There is always the very likely possibility that Joseph was in fact Jesus' real actual father and this virgin birth thing was a later concoction. That changes nothing about Jesus' teachings and doctrine.

Don't you folks that hold Paul as the real deal admit that Jesus left this earth after providing the pathway to salvation? Without having to resort to the dubious pronouncements of Paul?

Even if you discount Paul, can a Christian obtain salvation? John the Baptist and his cousin Jesus were pretty clear that the law stands especially the big 10 and that repentance was the key to salvation. The parable of the prodigal son illustrates this clearly as did the parable of the sons and the vineyard.

Do the big ten stand today? Can a Christian throw them aside, violate the sabbath, engage in actual adultery, etc. and receive salvation because they believe in Jesus without making any attempt to follow the big ten?

I submit that some here do not understand the significance of what happened in 70AD.

Ain't that the truth

Quoting Christian theologians attempting to rationalize prophesy failure does negate what is described about the prophesied Messiah, his purpose and mission, which was meant to be a literal Messiah literally doing the things that are described.



That is why Orthodox Judaism rejects Christian theology, and none of this has anything to do with me or what I believe.

I wouldnt call them predictions. They're instructions.

The prophesy, curse and the genealogy have meaning or they don't......

JESUS is KING and Ruling, but NOT from Judah.............. the curse has two qualifiers, on Davids' throne, and ruling from Judah.....

Apparently you didn't read my later post or those of some others. Jeconiah is NOT in Jesus bloodline. The geneology listing him in Mathew is of Joseph and Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father. The family tree in Luke is of Mary, his biological line and Jeconiah isn't in it.
The curse does have meaning - but DNA doesn't lie. Jesus had none of his.

Zerubbabel, Shealtiel are in both..........

The two genealogies of Jesus do not jive but both clearly are the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph not Mary. Mary is not listed.

The Ebionites who were among the very first Christians did not have any belief in the virgin birth as they used the OT and the book of Matthew which in their time was minus the first 2 chapters which were added later. It is also noteworthy that 2 of the gospels do not mention the virgin birth at all.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Ebionism.html

These questions have been answered for millennia, and are easy to find in the information age: Link to answer.

I was already familiar with www.gotquestions.org. They come at things with preconceived opinions. I don't know all the answers but I'm positive the NT was meddled with and there are some doctrines such as trinitarianism that are hard to make sense of.

I remain careful and skeptical of Paul because he doesn't make much sense. That is not to say that everything he writes (if he wrote it) is false, but perjurers always concede the obvious to be true. It is when they put their "yes, but" into the mix that they lie.

And anytime someone keeps saying "I do not lie" they are lying. Check out how many times ol' Saul says the equivalent of that.

Personally, I don't criticize anything I don't admittedly understand.

Well, if something doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense and that very often indicates someone is lying, but unfortunately Paul is not around to depose on his conflicting testimony.

Are you sure that he isn’t using an accepted rhetorical technique common in the day of his writing?

I'll have to think about that. I don't remember a whole lot of "I don't lie/I'm not lying" out of anybody else. I believe I remember Jesus accusing his Jewish hierarchy of lying quite a bit though.

It is past experience that tells me when someone keeps insisting they aren't lying, they are.

I think that you’d have to understand the men who were Paul’s educators and the school of rhetoric in which he was taught.

I’ve known many conversations in which phrases such as “I’m not lying” were used to emphasize the point and spoken by men who’s honesty was not in question.

You are pulling assumptions out of your ass. The interpreters used that phrase because it was the closest in English to give the indication of someone emphasizing what they are saying is true. Meanings change over time and society. You could substitute any phraseology you like as long as it conveys someone emphasizing that what they are saying is true.

I would be happy to privately explain any of Paul's teachings as long as we can both keep a respectful demeanor. I honestly hate reading you slander Paul.

I'm sorry you feel that way. No slander intended other than to say Paul makes no sense in that he teaches a different doctrine or way than John the Baptist and his cousin Jesus did.

Really we have no idea if Paul really was the author of some of what is attributed to him. Forgeries designed to bolster the Roman/church combination might be the explanation. The first few verses of Romans 13 indicate that very thing. How could anyone give a blanket endorsement to the government and warn that after all they "bear the sword not in vain"?

No offense intended. I am naturally skeptical and something smells fishy. Just my opinion. I'm always subject to be wrong because just like you I operate with incomplete information and we are reading a history of folks long dead and it has been translated through who knows how many languages and retellings.

The OT is different. It was recorded centuries BC and is not near as vulnerable to editing. That said, I do believe the book of Matthew captured Jesus' the most accurately.

What happened in 70?

They're also in 1 Chron 3 and the lines are different in all 3. In that one, Zerubbabal is the son of Shealtiel's brother, Pedaiah. The fact is, only an expert in Jewish lineage can figure out who's who. None of us here can. Trying to discount Jesus' kingship on account of an unknown lineage is pure fallacy.

Titus

and the fulfilment of a bunch of OT prophecies.

NOT HIS Kingship, HIS ruling physically on earth............

HE is King and ruling TODAY............

The Kingdom IS, and the Temple has been 'rebuilt'..................

The old testament had an ending, it ended. Went from constant characters and events, world shattering, nation beginning/ending, bigger than life itself, dramatic... everyone knows these stories believer or not, read the bible or not.

But it ended, the biblical story of thousands of years stopped.

The new story was contained in 33 years, the biblical records were written in less than 100 years.

The bible itself stopped after that time, when before it was an ongoing continuous record of God and man.

God/man relationship was changed, worldly events and characters are no longer worthy of biblical inclusion.

The world matters less, the Spirit matters most.

Kent

The God of the universe is still working with his covenant people and the miracle of the retaking of the Jewish nation of Israel is living proof.

God is working with everyone not just one nation, and not in the manner of the old testament.

Kent

I don't think God is working with everyone. He allows those who ignore his presence to go their own way.

Lots of people ignore him. Hence, lot's of decadence.

Romans 1.

God hasn't given up on anybody.

Kent

One contributor to this thread posted this earlier:
It appears to be a pretty accurate observation:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel

There hasn't been a Noah, Moses, David, Abraham type some years before Jesus or after.

Kent

Maybe. But God will give people over to a reprobate mind. I'd say that the path back is difficult once that happens.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind

You don't have to look around very much these days to see people who have been given over to a reprobate mind.

And in the past roughly 2,400 years the Jewish people…Gods “covenant people”…have had zero prophets — much less a Messiah. They flat-out reject Jesus. Judaism does not consider Jesus to be a prophet, Judaism does not consider Jesus to be the messiah, nor does Judaism consider Jesus to be a divine being. Yet the assertion is still made by modern-day Judaizers that “Judaism is where it’s at.”

Exactly. The Muslims are closer to the truth on Yeshua than the Jews....without a doubt.

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are improper and repulsive." - Romans 1:28

The end of the aeon (age, as in the Old Covenant....jews spoke of two ages, the age they were living in and the age of Messiah), the end of the Levitical Priesthood and Temple sacrifice.

This allowed for the new and everlasting Covenant, the one sealed by the blood of Yeshua, to be fully brought in.

Recall what Paul said about the old waning and making ready to pass away.

Ok brother...how about when Yeshua says it?

Verily, verily.....

"These are the days of vengeance, that all that is written might be fulfilled".

Not all who are Israel, are Israel.

Who is a Jew? Not him who is circumcised of the flesh, but he who is circumcised of the heart, from above.

If none of this makes sense to you, you need to study the Word.

Sorry to be so blunt, but there you go.

If you choose to deny/ignore the teaching of the Apostles, then I guess you start your own system?

While I believe that to be true, HE has moved on from a particular 'way'....

We are no longer under 'the Law' - we have a new a better 'way', better sacrifice, High Priest, priesthood, forgiveness, and grace...... 'ALL things have been made new.'

Peter was looking for 'a new Heaven and a new Earth, wherein righteousness dwells'......... they are here.....

The Old one has been done away with and the new one is here....

The Hebrew writer speaks of the old way 'growing old and ready to disappear'....... by 70 AD it was gone and replaced with the new, which began in earnest on Pentecost Acts 2.............. it took 40 years.

Much like the Israelites being freed from Egyptian bondage, crossing the Red Sea, and 'getting home', crossing the Jordan, 40 years later!!! Coincidence!?!?!?!?

But if you reject Peter and Paul you can't get that..........




ISA 65:
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to [n]mind.
18 “But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19 “I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20 “No longer will there be [o]in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not [p]live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the [q]one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21 “They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 “They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the [r]lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23 “They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the [s]offspring of those blessed by the Lord,
And their descendants with them.

24 It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the Lord.

I was waiting for that. Continually saying "I don't lie/I am not lying" is a whole lot different that saying "to tell you the truth" or "Verily, Verily I say unto you". And Paul was constantly coming up with stuff Jesus never said, claimed to have met Jesus out on the desert road, travelled to 3rd heaven, along with other hallucinations. And he was disowned by the original Christians.

Think about it. You may have been duped.

If you can find anyone who has done missionary work in Israel and surrounding areas it’s well worth listening to their experiences. Enlightening to say the least.

The disciples asked Jesus why he spoke to Israel in parables. His answer is pretty shocking. So that hearing they will not understand or believe.

We also have the offensive account of God hardening hearts. Pharaoh being a prominent example.

God certainly does “give up” on people.

Yep. After Jesus was crucified, religious Israel wrestled for the next 40 years with the internal tension created by Jesus’ New Covenant. Religious Israel tried hard to stamp it out, but it kept growing. Due to the tireless efforts of Apostle Peter, and James (the brother of Jesus and the leader of the church in Jerusalem), and Apostle Paul and others, real Jewish Christians throughout the Roman Empire began abandoning their strict adherence to the Mosaic Law and started following the resurrected Jesus instead.

Then the transition came to a quick end, on August 6th in AD 70. The four-year war between Rome and the Jewish rebels came to a violent conclusion. The Jewish temple (the very heart of ancient Judaism) was looted and burned and razed to the ground. Its complete destruction signaled the end of ancient Judaism ~ just as Jesus Himself predicted. The words of the Old Covenant were preserved, but Israel’s ability to live in accordance with those words disappeared in a single day.

Ancient Judaism...as prescribed by Moses at Mount Sinai...ceased to exist. To use Jesus’ term, it “disappeared.” Not a single person…including real Jews or pretend Jews…has practiced ancient Judaism in nearly 2,000 years. And for someone to cherry-pick 2% of the Law of Moses that they’re gonna abide by, while completely ignoring the other 98% of the Law of Moses, and then claim that they’re ‘walking in obedience to Torah’ is comical to the Nth degree. Saying that you abide by the “Big 10” and the Saturday sabbath and not eating frog legs or pork chops is a far cry from ‘keeping Torah’ and following the Mosaic Law. Clearly.

God does not give up on people or harden them against him. I have studied the translations extensively. Read all the scriptures about Pharaoh' heart and you will find that they also say Pharoah hardened his own heart.

The scripture that says God did it doesn't exactly mean that God made him choose wrongly. It means that God made the situation in which Pharoah would choose. The Hebrew brings it out plainly that God takes responsibility only in creating the situation and in that way only did God harden his heart, not by causing him to make the damning decision.

It would be like saying "24hourcampfire hardened my heart against Pit Bulls." You may have read some stuff that caused you to harden your heart, but it's not like the decision was forced on you as if you had no control over it.

I’ve studied it pretty extensively. That’s only one example. This is awesomeness of God and not something that we can understand. Not do we need to defend God and what He declares of Himself.

This is the awesomeness and awfulness of God and why we should rightfully respect and fear him. Crocodile Dundee said that God and me, we be mates. In modernity we may have too cavalier an attitude. As C S Lewis said in the Chronicle of Narnia. He is not a tame Lion. As such, He does what he will, even preaching to Israel in such a way as to keep them from understanding.

Regardless of what God did in the old testament, he has a different approach now... he has Christ and the Holy Spirit rather than the constantly directing generational human characters.

Kent

You've been fed a line. Most of it comes from bad translations. God is awesome but not in the way you think. You make him sound like an all-powerful petty tyrant that should be worshiped just because he could squish you. That's the damn lie that has driven many good people far from a Church and most of what's wrong with Christianity as preached today.

Excuse me?

It is clear in the text that both pharaoh and God hardened Pharaohs heart. There are many text in the OT that speak of other ways in which God hides Himself from people.


Matthew 13

10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’


Take it up with God.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. The old covenant (the Mosaic Law) was clearly retired by Jesus Himself when He instituted His New Covenant. Jesus came into this world to introduce something brand new. He didn’t come here to expand Judaism ~ this wasn’t Judaism 2.0 ~ He came to establish something brand new to the world and for the world: a New Covenant that would forever change man’s relationship with God. Jesus ushered in a brand new arrangement between God and man.

Is that the relationship where the Holy Spirit teaches you things that totally conflict with scripture?

It seems to me…and others here…that your assertions regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual lives of Jesus’ followers totally conflict with scripture. The Holy Spirit relates to Jesus’ followers individually and personally, that’s why Jesus used words like Advocate and Guide and Counselor and Helper, because the Holy Spirit is those things directly to Jesus’ followers individually and personally. There’s something to be said for the peace that transcends all understanding (it was experientially referred to earlier on the other thread by another poster); for example, you feel financial peace, relational peace, and spiritual peace. Paul listed the fruit of the Spirit that Jesus’ followers get because the Spirit of God lives in them. Jesus’ followers are literally a walking, breathing temple of the Holy Spirit that dwells in them. The same Spirit that brought Jesus back to life is alive in His followers.

Some choose to confine the Spirit of God to the space between the covers of a book, and they assert that God ‘only’ reveals Himself through the Bible.

I’m not one of em’.

And yet the Holy Spirit has led you into “truth” which is in direct conflict with scripture and history.

Your explanation is Bu-ll sh-it.

You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It seems to me…and others here…that your assertions regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual lives of Jesus’ followers totally conflict with scripture and history.

Take it up with God.

Yes, as translated in the KJV it would seem so. It is however a poor translation. Look into Kenneth S Wuest word studies of those scriptures to see a comprehensive translation as agreed open by the top Hebrew scholars of the 20'th century. You will see that the way I explained it before is correct according to the experts.

Are you trying to learn what was originally said or trying to prove what you think?

Not at all but when you read scripture that portrays God as different to what your heart says, you should investigate what the scripture really says.

You should read those passages from the Wuest Word studies?

Who are the Hebrew scholars?

Just find it ironic IZH27 quotes those words...

Kent

Anyway, I much prefer that I can follow Christ as my leader rather that a Moses or David.

Kent

I prefer going to the inter linear.

This avoids someone’s opinion.

There are many areas where there are tensions in scripture. There are things that God says which don’t make sense to human intellect.

This is such a scripture. God is equal in all of His attributes without fault. Otherwise, God is not God. He can harden a heart and yet be just in the hardening, withholding etc.

As creature God does not owe us explanation and explanation is not always give. I can live with that. In reality I don’t desire a God that I can fully understand because such a God is likely my own imagination and making.

Scripture also teaches us about the deception and dishonesty of our hearts and goes into far more detail concerning knowledge, understanding, right understanding (the intellect) than the enthusiast view of hyper spiritualism.

Consider that man was made for the earth. It is in the day in and day out that God comes to us and in which we exist. To elevate the spiritual above the physical is to commit error. All of our being fell and all of our being is addressed in redemption. Not just the spirit or the spirit to a higher degree.

That’s the beauty of the whole thing.

Your bullsh-it is yours. I don’t have to answer for it but you will. You place God the Father’s will into conflict with the actions and words of Christ and the clearly written text and accepted history all the while saying that he Holy Spirit made you do it.

You imply that I haven’t. That implication has no basis.

Early in my adult life I was faced with having to question all that I was raised to believe because of glaring errors and questions that arose from study.

I eventually learned that I couldn’t read what others said about what someone said because those sources quickly devolved into second, third, fourth person.

Original source and reading the actual opposing view is where a man can meet the reality of the disagreement and find truth. In your studies do you go to that extreme or do you read someone else’s view on what someone said?

Granted, we will all do that to a degree more or less, but, do you try to fully wrap your thinking around opposing views?

Have you ever considered, even though you claim to have been a preacher(correct me if I’m wrong), that you have stepped in so far that you head is three feet under water?


For all of your and Antlers claims of being led by the Holy Spirit….

You guys embrace Dispensational theology, without which your hypotheses of faith would crumble. John Nelson Darby started that theology in the 1830’s. It is as though Christ, the disciples and the faithful theologians for 1800 years of church history suffered catnip-rectal inversion and Darby figuratively pulled their heads out.

If your example of spiritual enlightenment is what Christianity is all about I don’t want a freaking thing to do with it because it exists without evidence and without being tangible. That isn’t the Christianity of the Bible neither is it represented in history beyond the heretical.


The nice thing is that one is only a heretic if he continues in the lie.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you that? That’s amazing because I haven’t given much of an explanation of what I believe. Now I won’t have to!!

Oh! BTW. God just told me that you and KRP were going to send me 10 large each. PM me for my address!

#sofreakingblessed

Again, it seems to me…and others here…that your interpretation of scripture and your assertions regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual lives of Jesus’ followers totally conflict with what Jesus’ clearly said to His followers regarding this matter, and with clear history pertaining to this matter.

I checked out Mr Wuest.

His educational pedigree is enough to disqualify him
As a serious theologian. Moody and a Dispensationalist. Too biased. I like to stay as neutral as possible and let the language say what it says even if I don’t like
What it says. I’m certainly still biased and have presuppositions but I do make an attempt to factor that in and own it.

It is MY assertion, and I don’t need to imply cohort support, that you stand in conflict and are not honest enough to address your inconsistencies.

I also, ON MY OWN, assert and actually observe, that you engage in a so called Christianity that embraces eastern religious views of the material and spiritual.

Furthermore, it is My assertion that you separate God from the physical, separated yourself from the physical and make Christianity a bastard mix of spiritualism, Gnosticism, post post modernism and Hinduism. Convince me that I’m wrong.

So far, over the course of a lot of these types of threads, you’ve projected so many different theologies on me, schit that I’ve never even heard of. And you’ve resorted to intentional and clearly disingenuous mischaracterizations, and flat-out lies, to support your assertions. And you’ve done it over and over and over again.

It’s OK with me that you choose to believe what you do. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture.

You come across as though your grasp on your academic and legalistic religious beliefs is so tenuous and so shaky that you're afraid the least puff of practical and non-legalistic perspective will blow it away.

Well said.

No. I have asked you questions, which, to your credit, you haven’t answered as the hole would be deeper.

I have simply made observation your erroneous version of history and scripture and your claim that the Holy Spirit has led you into “truth”.

If the Father Son and Holy Spirit work one against the other then you are in tall cotton. If the Godhead by definition cannot be at odds then you spew error.

I didn’t put those words and positions upon you. You claimed them as your own.

The only “conflict” is yours. And that’s representative of you. It’s not representative of anyone else or anything else.

Would you send your children and grand children over to Die in Israel to defend and fight for “God’s chosen people” ?

NO SIR…! And I wouldn’t send your children and grandchildren or anyone else’s either…!

You have simply decided to believe what you want rather than looking for the truth. Wuest is not so much of an ancient language scholar as he is a compiler of knowledge. He quotes the actual scholars and has compiled the translations into a comprehensive study.

Yes, I am saying translations, not personal opinion. There would be no reason to discount such a study unless you knew it would destroy Your opinion. you already admitted you couldn't look at opposing views as it might sway you from your own mistaken interpretations.

Well uh, yes and no.

HE said All of Israel will be saved.

Now, HE doesn't lie. HEs the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

THOSE who reject JESUS CHRIST will not have their name listed in the Book Of Life, HE said

So, how can All of Israel be saved and yet those of Israel who reject Christ as Lord not be written in The Book of Life?

Very simple. When HE says all of Israel will be saved, he is NOT referring to the nation of Israel you are thinking of, but a DIFFERENT Israel.

WHO GETS SAVED FOR SURE? HIS ISRAEL. HIS people who accept JESUS CHRIST as Son of God.

There are two Israel's. One is the World's Israel and one is HIS Israel.

Be a part of the latter.

I love to say, "They didn't give thanks, so God turned them into queers." See Romans chapter one.

They exchanged truth for a lie..............

God told Moses He would harden Pharoh's heart before Moses ever arrived in Egypt. You try to make God infinite from neutral to nice. God is not infinite from neutral to nice. He is Infinite! He created Noah's Flood. Beautiful virgins, handsome lads, pretty butterflies, and dinosaurs and horses and every living thing with the breath of life in its nostrils, God killed.

God even told Moses (paraphrased), "If you don't spread blood on your door, I will kill your firstborn. Even your firstborn animals."

If people don't accept God's Gift of His Son, He will torture them eternally. At the judgement God will give those who love Him more reason to love Him. For those who do not love Him He will give them more reason NOT to love Him.

Their Deviant Women lead their Discourse..

I don't believe all the land on earth went under water. Do you? There are plenty of mountains over 10,000 feet. Mount Ararat is over 16,000 feet.

Your god sounds like a real monster - fuck him.

I attended a Wesleyan Holiness Bible College in south Florida for a year. Second semester I took a course on the book of Romans. Being from a very legalistic, separatist works oriented view of scripture and faith the course was biased heavily in that direction.

Years later, I went back to the two books used in the teaching of that course. By that time in life I’d figured out that I needed opposing views to help work through things. What I found amazed me at the time.

Rather than simply addressing the text and attempting to contextualize Paul was saying, especially on the more difficult passages, the text books were an ironic academic gymnastics competition. “Paul says so and so”. So and so said x y and z about what Paul said and whatcha ma jigger said ducky do about what so and so said about what Paul meant when he said so and so.


I’ve read and studied compilers of knowledge. They end up being apologists for a biased view in my experience and based on the witness of history.

The Reformation and the Renaissance are ruts in the road of history which were made by the same wagon. Each represents what we are discussing at the moment. In Europe, both secular and religious knowledge had been reduced to compiled knowledge, so much so, that original texts and their meaning had been lost and had to be rediscovered.


As a dedicated Dispensationalist Mr Wurst can only lend a dispensational bias. Then, it has to be accepted that dispensational theology is a teaching that came onto the scene very abruptly on the 1830’s. That being the case it would be worthwhile to go back and consider those text from the perspective of pre Dispensational Theology commentators such as Matthew Henry or John Gill.

It would then be helpful if you would share the logic as to exactly how the Holy Spirit lead you into truth that conflicts with the clear teaching of history, the church and the written word which the Holy Spirit inspired.

Antlers.

If I am rightly stating your view the OT texts were for the Jewish people during the ministry of Christ and before and don’t directly impact anything Christ’s death.

Hypothetically, in your opinion, if that is the case what was the message of the Gospel after Christ ascended?

Again, the only “conflict” is yours. And that’s representative of you. It’s not representative of anyone else or anything else. Your academic and legalistic version of what you consider to be the “clear teaching” of history and the church is yours. And your academic and legalistic interpretation of the Holy Spirit inspired scripture is yours as well.

If an academic and legalistic faith is what does it for you, then have at it.

I don’t think that the word legalism means what you think it means.


Legalism/works based theology is set against antinomianism. The middle ground between the two is where we should aim. For about five years I’ve been about two clicks to the right, maybe three, on the antinomian side of the horse.


It’s quite interesting that you can’t or won’t defend your views. Your stance leaves a strong impression that you have no defense and possibly anticipate that your views be accepted simply because they are yours? If that’s the case you have to feel a great deal of discomfort when asked to give an account of what you believe and the hope that you have. I certainly did when all that I had to rely on was personal opinion.

Antlers.

If I am rightly stating your view the OT texts were for the Jewish people during the ministry of Christ and before and don’t directly impact anything Christ’s death.

Hypothetically, in your opinion, if that is the case what was the message of the Gospel after Christ ascended?

The modern day secular nation-state of Israel is not the Israel of the Bible. Their role in God's 'economy' as you put it, is the same as everyone else's role.

The Church is Israel.

You haven’t rightly stated my view regarding this or anything else, you have however intentionally and disingenuously mischaracterized…and flat-out lied about…what I’ve said. And several examples of such were clearly pointed out on the other thread, where the Holy Spirit was being discussed. You abandoned that thread, and inserted that discussion here, on a different thread.

This. Paul clears this up and puts a bow on it.

I ask for clarification.

Antlers.

If I am rightly stating your view the OT texts were for the Jewish people during the ministry of Christ and before and don’t directly impact anything Christ’s death.

Hypothetically, in your opinion, if that is the case what was the message of the Gospel after Christ ascended?

YEP!

Then go back and read what’s actually been said on the other thread.

NOPE! Not according to God’s Holy Word. The Church is NOT Israel. God set Israel aside and used Paul to form His Church, the Body of Christ, after the Jews rejected Him.

God will resume His work with Israel, Romans 11:25-26. Israel has only been PARTIALLY hardened, not fully, not totally, not replaced. God has a plan for Israel, Romans 11:1-6, Exodus 19:4-6.

God WILL fulfill His promises to Israel, or God is a liar. The Church is not under a covenantal relationship with God, like Israel. After the Church is removed, all God’s promises and prophesies to Israel will be fulfilled, Romans 11:25-26.

The Church has no prophecy except for the Rapture. Both Israel and the Church have their own destiny, purpose, and program. Scripture says so.

Actually, Paul did clear this up, but the water is STILL being muddied, imagine that!

Romans 9-11 teaches God’s faithfulness to Israel and absolutely destroys any ridiculous notion that the Church has replaced national Israel.

The Bible has no prophesy about a rapture. That was invented in the 1800’s.

We’ll see when the Numbers get Inscribed..

Bingo! Amazing that a Christian would even for a moment take a different view. In fact those who do, are not Christians. They are heretics of the dispensationalist variety.

Again, by the heretical dispensationalists.

Exactly! I have asked many time for the Scriptures indicating a rapture prior to the Great Tribulation. No one comes up with Scripture. Exactly like antlers and his defense.

And when JESUS spoke privately to his 4 disciples, HE indicated that they would see the great tribulation............... and that it would happen in the current, their, generation....

I was taught Dispensationalism and pre-trib rapture theory after I was born from above.

Took about a year of study to see that this was error.

Spent the next 25 years studying and seeking the truth.

Still studying....but convinced as ever that the Israel of God (re: Letter to the Galatians) consists of all who are in Christ, by grace, through faith.

God does not have some separate method or plan of Salvation for people who claim a certain genealogy. God is not a respecter of persons.

I have distant family who died in the Nazi camps. That connection means NOTHING in regard to my salvation.

Regarding the country of Israel that exists today, opinions and scriptural interpretations pertaining as to whether or not it remains God’s chosen nation are varied, as evidenced by the responses so far on this thread.

Same here. Fell out of a guard tower.

LOL

The idea of the blessing being given to the one or ones of promise rather than the one with the birthright is carried throughout the whole of scripture. It’s sad to see people through ignorance or much worse, stubbornness, refuse a very clear teaching that enriches the truth of our faith.

Dispensational theology has done its work. It is unbiblical and has nothing to do with Christian teaching other than to be false teaching. This theology has spurred a tremendous number of false teachings and doctrines which have further confused the Christian landscape in America. Were it not for Dispensational theology there would be no charismatic denominations and most holiness denominations would have folded like the Shakers.

Have you also written an essay on talkin’ out of your ass…? Because that’s clearly exactly what you’re doing here. The words of Jesus taken straight from the New Testament were posted by me on the other thread. That you choose to ignore them, or reject them, or interpret them to suit you, is your prerogative.

In fairness we have all believed things in error and are likely to do so again before death. We may even now be in error not yet realizing the offense. I was baptized into the Faith at a young age and understood a dispensational view. However, I did not continue in that error. I believe that the word had to be considered carefully in a situation like this. To remain in denial of the clear intent and teaching of the word would make one in danger of being a heretic.

There are none so blind that cannot see or don’t want to see. Scripture was given to us for a reason.

Scripture does tell us about the Rapture, which is prophetically related to the Church the Body of Christ. Everything else pertains to Israel and the Gentile nations after the Rapture.

The Rapture, the Day of Christ, is the Church’s resurrection, the blessed hope, Titus 2:13. It is a separate event from the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation. The Rapture is part of the doctrine of the resurrection and occurs in a sequence. 1 Corinthians 15:20, 22-23, 51-52, and 1 Thess 4:13-18

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:17

“Caught up” or snatched away is translated to God’s presence, 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Jesus returns at the Rapture, the Church will be resurrected.

“Caught up” is the Greek word, harpazo, which to snatch away. Our English word rapture comes from the Latin word for “caught up”, rapiemur.

The Rapture removes the Church so that God can reinstate His prophetic Kingdom program with Israel. The dead in Christ will rise first, then the living believers. Both groups will be snatched away or caught up to be forever with the Lord.

Christ will give all members of the Church resurrected bodies and will remove those who are alive from the earth. Those alive will not experience death. Their mortal bodies will be transformed into resurrected bodies.

The Rapture is a separate event from the 2nd coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:2, 10-12, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Acts 1:11-12, Zechariah 14:1-4

We are told in the Word of God to proclaim the Rapture and to comfort one another until Jesus comes, 1 Thessalonians 4:18

I tend to believe the Word of God over what man seems to think, reject, or deny. Some men believe the Holocaust never occurred…

Why do you accuse him of ignoring the clear words of Jesus when you do the same? Remember the “Jesus and the disciples leveraged the Jews” with OT text and the “OT scriptures were for the Jewish people”. Christ wasn’t preached to the Gentiles from the OT text yet you have been supplied examples that clearly document the OT text being preached to Gentiles who were brought into the faith?

After the ascension the apostles taught that we, as believers, awaited the return of Christ. That was the accepted view from which to consider eschatology. All of the “left behind” doctrine is directly related to dispensational theology. The post Apostolic fathers preached the same message as the apostles. The awaited return of Christ.


Based on your theology wouldn’t be more accurate to ask him why he isn’t allowing the Holy Spirit to leave him into truth?

Go ahead and post up where I said exactly what you’ve attributed to me with your quotation marks above.

Mark ..

My Word ..

I've got to cut firewood today before summer heat sets in. So I'll be out a few hours.

Y'all try to get all this settled so we can get back on the subject of Paul.

When y'all are fighting it's hard to have a good discussion on the real issue.

Well you’ve completely ignored what so many have said here pertaining to Paul and the “real issue” in the absence of any “fighting” so I doubt that your inability to have a “good discussion” is even remotely related to any perceived “fighting” on your end.

"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

- Matthew 3:9

persiandog 5:3:2023

I think this is a simple question. The Bible states that they "were" God's chosen people. Where, chapter and verse, does the Bible state with equal clarity that they no longer are? If it is not there, no matter how much you want it to be, you're putting words in God's mouth / trying to change Scripture. That's man trying to rewrite God in our own image .. doing Satan's work in other words.

You cannot honestly read the Gospels and other New Testament Scriptures and not realize that the old order expired with Christ's death at the crucifixion, symbolized by the renting of the Temple veil from top to bottom at that moment.

"Behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

- Matthew 27:51

God tore the veil in half to signify that the barrier of sin was removed by Jesus’ sacrifice and death on the cross.

Also Hebrews 10:19-20, which says, “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which He has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh.”

Wow!

Originally the veil hid the ark of the covenant. However, it's location hasn't been authenticated anywhere since it was put in the temple during Soloman's lifetime. In Rev, John said he saw it in heaven but we don't know if that was a vision or if God took it to heaven to protect it.
When the veil tore, it didn't reveal the ark at any rate.

It meant that whole system was forever over as far as God was concerned, even though the Jews continued to perform their ceremonies there till a few decades later when the Temple was finally, once and for all, destroyed, leaving not one stone upon a stone.

There was an effort to rebuild the Temple under a Jewish-friendly Emperor who provided them unlimited funding for the project. So many of the workers were blasted to death by fire of unknown origin from under the ground that the effort was eventually abandoned due to inability to hire workers.

The short answer is yes.

The rent veil means God removed the barrier between Him and man, and it means Jesus removed and defeated sin and death.

Jesus going to the cross solved the sin problem and satisfied God’s justice. Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51

Hebrews 4:14-16, mankind was unfit for the presence of God as long as the veil was in the Temple. Animal sacrifices could not fully atone for man’s sins and had to daily and constantly be repeated over and over.

The renting/tearing of the veil removed the barrier between God and man. Now, we can approach God directly with free access anytime.

The veil in the Temple was a shadow of what was coming—Jesus!! Jesus was the veil to the Holy of Holies, and Jesus was symbolic as the ONLY way to the Father, John 14:6.

Jesus is now our High Priest, and now we an enter the Holy of Hokies through Him directly, Hebrews 10:19-20.

Jesus was the ultimate one-time sacrifice, and the shedding of His blood at the cross sufficiently atoned for our sins, even as unworthy as we are. The Holy of Holies is now open to all (Jew and Gentile).

It doesn’t matter where the Ark of the Covenant is now. That’s not what matters. What matters is that it is finished, and Jesus atoned for our sins at the cross with His precious blood.

A rapture has been taught in many churches in recent years. It just isn't supported in scripture. Like this one:

1 Cor 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 ¶ Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

That last trumped is completely ignored. It tells exactly when it will occur - at the last trumpet which is exactly when Jesus reappears. I've heard this 'we'll all be changed' many times to support a pre-trib rapture but I don't know of any instance where it was mentioned that the last trumpet must first be blown.

Rock Chuck, that very Scripture is what got me to start on that study of escatology. Completely reversed my position and can defend it from scripture. We will go through the tribulation.

When did the idea of "rapture" become widely accepted? The early church didn't embrace it that I can find. I suspect the tribulation has already be going on for nearly 1000 years.

And now that the Jews are back in Jerusalem maybe the prophesies of Ezekiel (dry bones) and Isaiah 66 ("shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once ? for as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children") are upon us.

God did not bring the Jews back to Jerusalem to destroy them.

I don't profess to know the Lord's plans but something big is up, and the Jews and Jerusalem are a big part in it.

Up until the last few years it would have been impossible for the whole world to see the two witnesses slain for the whole world to see. Now even in 3rd world countries people are connected to worldwide events.

Muffin, your insight regarding biblical eschatology is interesting and appreciated. Do you contend that ‘most’ biblical prophecy has already been fulfilled; or do you contend that ‘all’ biblical prophecy has already been fulfilled…?

You are wrong,,, again

You have been wrong about everything you've claimed about me, and without shame.

Kent

I don't ignore what y'all say. I also once believed if it was in the bible it must be true and I listened to preachers droning on and on about salvation as explained by Paul. Then I got a game warden job that required hours and hours of surveillance. To fill in the time I read the bible a lot and learned a lot about Jesus' teachings and the role of John the Baptist. I could see clearly that the main requirement for salvation was repentance and turning from sin. Jesus made it pretty plain that the law was not abolished and also made plain that obeying the technicalities of the law were not good enough. He also made it plain that you are not to make an ass of the law when he rebuked the Pharisees for complaining about his healing on the sabbath. The parable of the two sons in Matthew 21 is instructive in that one claimed to do his father's will and one refused, but in the end the one that refused actually repented and did the right thing.

Jesus told his listeners that they should do as the Pharisees said but to not do as they do.

Any translation of the bible I read has Paul contradicting the doctrines of Jesus and I remind you that the early Christians in Jerusalem and Asia Minor, the ones closest to Jesus rejected Paul and Jesus had opportunity in The Revelation of Jesus Christ to set the record straight and defend Paul but he did not. In fact he ratified the rejection of false apostles at Ephesus.

I could be wrong but I encourage you to look into this with an open mind. Jesus warned you to "take care that you be not deceived".

What makes you think that I haven’t looked into this with an open mind…? What makes you think that others here haven’t looked into this with an open mind…?Is His admonition for you too…?

Ty,

I suppose I 'lean' toward all...........

But to emphatically say ALL is a bit bold............

Why would you say "Jesus made it pretty clear the law was not abolished." Do you make that assumption based on Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law not abolish it? The only clear thing to me is that you are still clueless what that means. It does not mean the law is still in effect. It is like in a contract. Jesus didn't make the contract void. He fulfilled every term in the contract. You don't go back to a contract and say do this or that when everything in the contract has already been done. It is finished!

3-16-23 on the Christianity thread:

It's impossible to discuss the New Testament with someone who totally discounts the Apostle Paul's contribution to it.

The Messiah was primarily sent for the Jews. The Jews didn't need to be taught about God from scratch.

Paul, on the other hand, was sent to spread the Gospel to the Pagan Gentiles,...people who had no concept of God. It's not surprising that he had to use a totally different approach than the Messiah.

I see it like this. If you know God to be omnipotent, you will realize that he would have never allowed Paul to have so much influence in converting Gentiles to Christianity if Paul wasn't genuine.

As for those who say, "God wouldn't do this" or "God wouldn't do that",..you're thinking in human terms. God isn't a human. God does what God does. And whatever God does is correct because God is the supreme arbiter in what is or isn't correct. The Apostle Paul explains this in Romans 9:17-22.

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

It's fairly impossible to get a good handle on God's character while we're functioning through these extremely limited human brains with extremely limited human senses.

But God is "just".

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

To the gentiles, a list of how we are to live in Christ. Note that it's from the Holy Spirit. Note that there aren't books and books of legal rules to follow. Above all, note what's missing - there is NO requirement for circumcision. That was one of the most important parts of the law. In fact, it was instigated 500 years before the rest of the law. It was required of all Jews by God. Now it's gone. The new gentile believers are not under the law and the Holy Spirit himself has said it.

Also, note that Paul didn't write this. It was guided by the Holy Spirit and written by the JEWISH apostles, Jesus' followers. They acknowledged that Jesus preached to the Jews but now the word was going to the gentiles and it was radically different. It's now salvation by faith alone and NO law is required to back it up. It's backed up by Peter's vision to send him to Cornelius. Paul spent the rest of his life defending this message from the Spirit and while the 4 gospels were aimed at the Jews, the rest of the NT is aimed largely at the gentiles.
This is in Acts which was written by Luke, a follower of Paul. It's a continuation of the book of Luke, one of the 4 gospels and largely aimed at the Jews. Luke showed us the transition from law to faith as God turned his grace away from the Jews toward the gentiles. This transition would continue until 70AD when God had finally had enough.

As to your statement "If you know God to be omnipotent, you will realize that he would never have allowed........"

God allowed the Roman Catholic Church to go on a murdering spree that lasted centuries.

Allowing Paul to spread false doctrine to see who would take the bait is small potatoes compared to that.

Actually Paul's doctrine was used by the Catholic Church to justify their crimes.

I see Paul's writings here as being more about the uselessness of questioning God's character than about explaining God's character. Many times, scripture records what an individual said about God. It does not mean it is an accurate opinion. We infer much from scripture that isn't actually taught.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the Apostle Paul's legitimacy.

Yep. James, the brother of Jesus and the leader of the church at Jerusalem, concluded that the entirety of the matter regarding the Law of Moses…all 613 different rules and regulations and commands in it…boiled down to two quick sentences, and then “farewell.” That was it.

And the only reason that those things were even mentioned…the “not eating meat from strangled animals, and from blood, and food polluted by idols...” is because those things were really offensive to Jews and it would cause fellowship problems within the ekklesia. He’s saying to the Gentiles to not cause strife with their fellow Jewish Christians over these particular cultural sensitivities, and to be gracious towards them. Go along to get along. That’s the only reason that those things were even mentioned.

The sexual immorality part speaks for itself.

And at the same Council, the Apostle Peter made it crystal clear that salvation is not works-based in any way whatsoever; it’s not based on following Jewish law and flawlessly keeping all of its religious duties. The Apostle Peter made it crystal clear that salvation is 100% by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus alone.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you to crop my comments and remove punctuation to change the meaning or was that your idea?

I have clearly stated I did NOT pursue the ministry, though that was expected of me. Preaching from the pulpit at age 15 because it was a good gimmick and optics for the church does not make me ordained.

Kent

Nor does it make me a liar for repeating what you have said of yourself. At least you recognize that you were used as a tool.

Did the Holy Spirit tell you to crop my comments and remove punctuation to change the meaning or was that your idea?

,even though you claim to have been a preacher(correct me if I’m wrong),

Here's your punctuation, 2 commas, which you don't understand any better than what's a verb and what's a noun...

Kent

So. By your own confession you were used as a tool to preached when you were to naive to know any better and too young to shave. Here, assume that you are not of a swarthy lineage.

Be it noted that I did ask for confirmation but that you then both confirm and deny the fact that you no reached.


This sounds like an abusive relationship. You were used as a tool by a religious freak show and yet you cling to that flavor of deviant teaching.

You didn’t answer the question ace. Did the Holy Spirit put you up to lying or was that your ingenuity?


You really need to tap out bud. You aren’t built for this and your apologetics suck.

You didn’t answer the question ace. Did the Holy Spirit put you up to lying or was that your ingenuity?

Probably my 7th grade English teacher...

Here's an example...

You are an idiot, aren't you?

You are an idiot aren't you?

As far as apologies you told me to prove you apologized before... when I did you ignored it.

Ace...

Kent

Here's a question for you...

Do you drive a creeper van with a cross spraypainted on the sides handing out religious trinkets to neighborhood kids?

Kent

This is the typical response of charismatics here there and everywhere.

You can’t defend your views with scripture. The only thing that you have is your feelings and it shows. You view a question of your doctrine as personal because everything hinges on feelings, unctions and shivers of the liver.

I’ve been there. It’s an uncomfortable place and there is no peace and there is definitely no assurance.

Thanks for living up to the expectation. I could have closely scripted every response that you have made.


So. The Holy Spirit did or didn’t make you try to distort my post? I’m thinking that you did that and that it was done out of anger. Now. Galatians 5. Is that one flesh or of the Spirit?

Weird, I posted multiple verses supporting my faith, at least 10... you ignored them.

Kent

Do you lisp when you type?

Kent

You are the guy telling everyone that you have a deep personal relationship and communication with the Holy Spirit. Yet, under minimal pressure you react and go full bore carnal.

There is a good object lesson here.

Why do you seem to be SO BOTHERED by that…?

He's bothered because he can't.

Kent

It's not like I called you blasphemous or heretical or the like... Jesus frowns on stuff like that.

Kent

I've been called that and worse.

I can't remember when and exactly what was said but one of my 24 HCF friends condemned me to hell.

ABSOLUTELY

I called the belief heretical. I also said that most of us have followed such erroneous teaching. One is only a heretic when continuing to walk in the false teaching after understanding the truth.


I’m not bothered by your claims antlers. Your claims bastardize the Gospel, destroy the narrative and clear teaching that God gave us concerning the Gospel. You start religious threads related to issues of the Christian faith. You say things that are inaccurate or blatantly false. You make claims that you can’t back up. I’ll keep pointing that out as long as you continue.

We are all stillborn and condemned to hell because we inherited a sinful nature in addition to all of the known and unknown sin that we commit.

Our works don’t and can’t redeem us from that condemnation.

That’s why Christ came as incarnate God, so that the price of our guilt was paid. Your sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ, incarnate promised Savior.

Do you believe?

Here we go, yet AGAIN, with your unrelenting Paul-bashing. Talk about brazenly and arrogantly shaking your finger in the face of Almighty God!

What do you not understand about God’s Holy Word telling us Paul was chosen by the ascended Lord to be the light to the Gentiles (after the Jews rejected and killed Jesus), Acts 13:47-48. God began the gospel of grace with His apostle Paul. Paul was chosen and appointed by GOD.

Anyone who believes a gospel different from Paul’s gospel is cursed, Galatians 1:6-9. The ONLY way to salvation from sin and death is the gospel of grace, which is, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

There is no other way to salvation. Hastings, just what do YOU believe to be saved if you don’t believe Paul’s gospel of salvation?

It isn’t a matter of IF our sins are paid for and forgive. They simply ARE because of Christ. Do you believe that you are a sinner? If so, your sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ.

Have you been baptized into His death? Do you believe?

Isaiah 53 spelled out the role of the Messiah and the new covenant 700 years prior to the birth of Christ.

Verse 5 and 6.

Post up where I’ve diminished the Gospel.

Why must you resort to intentional and disingenuous mischaracterizations…and flat-out lies…over and over and over again, in order to support your views and your position…? If your views and your position were solid and truthful, they’d stand on their own merit without having to resort to
intentional and disingenuous mischaracterizations…and flat-out lies…over and over and over again like you do.

That’s rich coming from you.

As far as I know the Gospel is Christ, Jesus's life, lessons, death on the cross, resurrection, the great news, his love, forgiveness, his service to mankind we don't deserve, patience, understanding, baptizing of the Holy Spirit.

Christ and the Holy Spirit ARE the Gospel, are the WORD.

Not were... ARE today.

Kent

The old testament is what... was... a continuous line of descendants God directly needed to communicate with, generation to generation. Leaders that then took the word to the people, otherwise they wouldn't hear it.

Jesus was the last descendent, the bible stopped after him... he was the last word, last leader, communication was taken from individual men to the masses and given individually to man through the Holy Spirit.

Kent

1 Cor 13:

13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body [a]to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 [b]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [c]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I [d]became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the [f]greatest of these is love.

Jesus very clearly stated that all of the old testament books, the law and the prophets clearly spoke about him. Do with that what you will, but not all of the old testament is in part a denial of Christ.

Huh? What does that have to do with what I said?

Kent

Muffin,

What is the "perfect" referenced in your Text?

Really? Or do you have some planned point to make?

Kent

The Gospel means good news.
It is the good news of all God has done so nothing is required of you except to trust in Him.
The end!

That’s a very basic definition of the gospel. However, the reality of white people believe that that means fairies wildly, and in many cases deviates far enough from one Christ, talking about the gospel astronaut be the gospel.

I’ll gladly answer your question but I need to have you answer the question that I’ve asked previously. I have no confidence that you’ll answer this question but I’ll give it a try anyway. If and when you answer the question, I will be able to give an accurate answer to the question that you just asked me.

If the message of Christ from the old testament/old testament scriptures were written strictly for the Jews during the ministry of Christ, and became in a sexual after that flat was the message of the gospel that the apostles preached at the church was being formed?

[quote=IZH27...the reality of white people believe that that means fairies wildly, .....from one Christ, talking about the gospel astronaut be the gospel.[/quote]

Ever think about buying a keyboard?

Rather than continually posting this supposed to sense one on offer up and intelligent reason logical defense of your positions?

Huh…?

Huh…?

I can’t make heads or tails of it either RufusG.

white = why
fairies = varies
astronaut = no idea

The underlying word suggests 'complete', and points to quantity, rather than the quality.......

When 'the PERFECT(complete) Law of Liberty' is here, these 'partial' things will cease..........

HEB 9 the way into the Holy Place is hindered as long as the tabernacle is standing..........

We have the perfect Law of Liberty, the gifts are no longer needed.......

What ever the gifts provide, if they continue, is either more than Scripture, Less than Scripture, or the same as Scripture........ whichever, they are no longer needed....

Paul says 'we have been given everything pertaining to life and Godliness', in the first century... but the temple was still a hindrance in some fashion....

Christians are indeed the Temple of GOD, and HE with the Spirit dwells in us.........

But, I have yet to meet a man that has or possesses the miraculous gifts of the Spirit....... though several have claimed to.

...Faith without hearing

...Knowledge without study

...and any of the other miraculous gifts

IMHU

I didn’t ask you a question. You made the assertion that my claims “bastardize” the Gospel. I then said to “Post up where I’ve diminished the Gospel.”

Chosen people, yes. Still chosen people, yes. Chosen for what is the question I am never asked.
Chosen to demonstrate the Glory of The Lord to the whole world. Chosen to demonstrate what happens to rebellious and stiff necked people push God aside and whore after other gods. This is a lesson America should be terrified of!
The end of the Book describes all these problems solved by God himself and His Son ruling from the Temple in Jerusalem. His plan,His Laws, His Salvation was and is forever.
Glad to be grafted in;
F01

I still can't completely translate it. I need a new keyboard too. It constantly doubles letters on me.

I would only say that I think it's a real shame we deviate from that basic gospel so far that we can't even see the forest for all the trees in the way.

We should debate as brothers, not argue as enemies.

I am with you on this brother.

Fine by me. That’s my preference as well. But when one intentionally and disingenuously mischaracterizes what has actually been said…and flat-out lies…over and over and over again, then I’ll keep pointing that out (and giving clear examples) for as long as it continues.

I do!!

The first Adam was our Federal Head who condemned us. But it isn't like any of us would have done differently!

The second Adam is our Savior who has redeemed us.

Amen!

These are the days of vengeance, that all that is written might be fulfilled.

Solve for "days of vengeance" and you have your answer!!

But I know, you already know that!!

JESUS, was speaking to 4 of HIS, and they were about to see those days....

Thanks for taking time to answer my question. What do you say about Ephesians 4:11-13

"And He gave some apostles, and some prophets and some evangelists, and some pastors and teacher for the equipping of the holy ones for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ."?

Muffin.


Lately I’ve been thinking about the many “if” statements that Paul makes throughout the letters to the Corinthians. I haven’t done a word search yet but I’m wondering about them as to context.

It would be easy to read them as acknowledgement, if these things are present. However, I started thinking about context and wonder if those statements are really meant as hypotheticals.

Any idea? I haven’t had a chance to do the research yet.

Ever think about buying a keyboard?[/quote]


Lol. I must be slurring words a lot. I voice to text a lot and usually try to edit and correct. Except when at work.

I sorry you feel the way you do but I cannot help but be leery of Paul or at least leery of whoever wrote that stuff. There is no one that ratifies Paul's doctrine except Paul. Paul was disowned by the early church including the people who actually walked with Jesus. I recognize Paul as being the type of person you will find in most any organization. A blowhard that wants to run the show and reorganize even a well run and functioning outfit. But in this case it is worse. He is claiming supernatural communication with God and Jesus and has absolutely no supporting evidence. I believe Jesus would have notified his publicly called apostles that he was sending Paul with an alternative doctrine for the gentiles. There is no indication other than Paul's word and his recounting of dreams or hallucinations, even going so far as to say he went to the 3rd level of heaven. Now Sir: a claim that extraordinary and a diversion from Jesus' original teachings has to require extraordinary proof.

Other than Paul's word what proof is there?

And yes, there is no path to salvation except by the grace of God. Earned by repentance and a turn around in your life. As John the Baptist told the Jewish leaders (spies) that came out to see him "bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance". Jesus emphasized repentance. His parables emphasized repentance. The old testament emphasized repentance. Jesus wept for Jerusalem because it refused to repent. Of course faith in Jesus is important, actually required, but Jesus' brother James said it best "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"

As Jesus is quoted saying in the next to last chapter of The Revelation of Jesus Christ " And behold I come Quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be''. Also he said ''Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and my enter in through the gates into the city.''

Twist Paul's letters any way you want but you cannot escape the contradiction of Jesus.

Answer me this very simple question. What happens when you fail to do enough? You say you need works or repentance or whatever you want to call it. Can't you see that as long as salvation requires works it fails.

You don't see it because Paul is the one who explained it and you rejected it for some asinine reason. Works is absolutely a part of salvation but only as the result of salvation. Abraham was saved by faith without circumcision. His circumcision was only the act of the faith he had. Yes, faith acts, but it is the faith that saves not the act. Otherwise, a freshly born-again sinner would still be damned without enough time to do the works you deem worthy of repentance.

We’ll start with James, who was zealous for the law. James was a Jew who was saved under the gospel of the kingdom, which tied faith and works together. Salvation by faith alone under the gospel of grace was then unknown to the Jews. James was a Jew who wrote to Jews in Dispersion under the Mosaic law, not to the Church, James 1:1.

Since James was written between 45-50 AD, but before 51 AD, James had no knowledge of Paul’s gospel of grace. James preached the Mosaic law and the kingdom gospel, which required faith plus works, James 2:18. He did not know about grace or faith without works, and James was written like an OT book to Jews, not Gentiles.

James was adamant about keeping Jewish law, Acts 21:17-26, and clearly didn’t understand the process of sanctification and that believers of Paul’s gospel were under grace, not the Mosaic law. James only knew of the OT prophetic program and wrote his epistle before Acts 15.

Jesus didn’t have to notify anyone of anything, including His intentions, because Jesus is God. And God, in His mercy and grace, came up with another plan to save humanity after His own rejected Him. In His grace, God commissioned Paul to be His apostle to the Gentiles after His own rejected and killed Him.

The “proof” you are looking for is in God’s Word, which you have arrogantly and persistently rejected. The proof is right before your blind eyes, but you keep pushing back, denying, and rejecting. And now you accuse Jesus of contradictions?!!

You going to tell Jesus He is a contradictory liar when you stand before Him?

No, Jesus did not lie. James was Jesus brother, the Jerusalem Jewish Christians had walked with Jesus.

Yes, I understand salvation is by grace, and every man is going to be judged by his repentance, his faith, and his works.

My considered opinion is that Paul would not have been named an apostle by meeting with Jesus unless Jesus notified the true apostles.

It is possible that Jesus struck Paul down and ordered him to stop his persecution. But naming Paul an apostle after a meeting "in the desert". Jesus named his apostles publicly.

Think about it.

YOU think about it. You’re the one on a very slippery slope…

I will think about it. And I appreciate the fact that you are a sincere man.

But I want you to know that I am not skeptical of Jesus.

But his self proclaimed friends have been causing havoc for centuries.

From AD30 to 70, or there abouts, the church was 'under construction', beginning on Pentecost and 'fully formed' by the destruction of the Temple.

For the first 20 years +/- Truth was laid out by the miraculous, Apostles, prophets, and likely possessed in some measure by the remainder.

IMHO, beginning with the letter sent out from the Jerusalem Conference, roughly 50AD, and contained in Acts 15, Truth began to be written down, and preserved, to the point where the miraculous would no longer be necessary....

I know of only one sect that claims to have present day apostles, there are many that claim to have prophets, and some that claim revelations, presumably of 'new' truth, there are certainly evangelists and teachers in all.

Paul lays out in Titus and Timothy the need for elders or pastors, shepherds..... and that without them the church is 'lacking, or not in order'........ their duty and work is shown in several passages...

If the written word is authoritative and complete, the miraculous is no longer necessary..... And Paul points out a time when that would be, though not a specific 'date and time'.....

As an aside I believe the letter, contained in Acts 15, to be the first NT pen to paper Scripture. It doesn't matter whether it was first or not, I just think it was....

In the 7 churches I think we see mature churches..... problems???? Absolutely. And shortly after, the destruction of the temple, there was no 'going back'............

IMHU....

Honestly, haven't thought about them specifically.............

A quick answer is, are they used in the similar way he uses 'so then', 'therefore' or 'since'??? IDK.

Regarding the OP: Some folks think that the Jewish people have been living partially in the dark for the last 2,000 years because they rejected the light that entered the world. Present day demographics show that a huge number of Jews living in Israel today are not religious Jews.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel

Some folks point out that present day Israeli Jews are clearly not people who are sitting by the Jordan River singing psalms to Yahweh and studying the Torah. And some folks assert that the nation of Israel that has existed since 1948 is not the same Israel that was guided by God throughout the OT, and that the only connection that exists between then and now is by the name “Israel” and by the common rejection of Jesus as the Messiah.

Are these views skewed, flat-out inaccurate, or are they accurate…?

Orthodox Jews are exempt from mandatory military service, live on welfare their entire lives so they can "study" the talmud. How many Americans have died defending Israeli Orthodox Jews the past 50 years?

Who really cares.

What you are saying isn't even logical. You are not skeptical of Jesus? Do you have a direct line to Jesus? Aren't you reading ABOUT Jesus from books also written by his so-called friends? All you are doing is saying you are smarter than all the scholars before you to be able to choose which friends to believe.

Yes, I don't have an agenda.

That's good to hear. I can't however understand your exact complaints with any scripture. The way you properly interpret scripture is with other scripture. If some passages seem to contradict others, then you have misunderstood one or the other. You shouldn't simply reject everything that doesn't sound right. You take the time and study to consolidate the passages into a clear comprehensive meaning.

In this manner Paul's writings completely agree with any other scripture and actually add clarity to the whole picture "IF" you understand what you are reading.

RHClark,

The way you wrote "IF" reminds me of the "IF" at the top of the page where the word "if" is found. For example Romans 8:17 reads. "and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."


Another example is Romans 11:22: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Another is 1 Corinthians 15:2 where we discover: "by which also you were saved if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

We serve a harsh God; Who is harsh to those who do not continue in His love.

My God isn't nearly as harsh as yours. I have the benefit of mercy and grace. You have a fearful expectation of judgement. The sad part is in the end, when you have to face all the truth, you will realize you weren't good enough. I already know I'm not and it doesn't matter.

Appreciate your insight on these matters RHClark. A lot.

That depends on whether we are talking about the Septuagint which was translated into Greek from original Hebrew texts or the Masoretic texts which were rewrites of the Greek texts in the 800s or so, to try and disprove Jesus as the Messiah.

Well, I am a bit of a smart ass sometimes.

Because I quoted some Scripture right from God's Word you think I am trying to earn my salvation? That is an amazing leap. Did your God tell Eve, "I will greatly multiply your pain..."? Did your God tell Moses, "If I see the blood, I will pass. If I don't see the blood I will kill every first born human and animal at this property."? Did your God tell Noah, "I'm going to kill everyone and everything with the breath of life in their nostrils."? Did your God say, "For after all it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His Power,"?

Yep. Rapture is made up. Everyone alive when the Tribulation arrives is gonna have to take a bite of the schitt sammich.

No, I have had enough of this constant religious shit being pushed by fuckwits...I am going to do something else for a while.

See you pack of useless cunts next year.

LOL. Kinda like walking into a bar and complaining that people are drinking alcohol.

No!
Because you constantly try to make the conversation about your perceived conditions for salvation. You only do this because you think you meet or exceed those conditions better than anyone else you know. This type of rhetoric is all you ever post about Christianity or salvation. I'm actually still trying to help you.

James was Jesus' brother and likely didn't become a believer until after the resurrection. He wasn't one of the disciples who'd followed Jesus for 3 years and he hadn't had the benefit of Jesus' words like the apostles. After he was saved, he quickly rose to become the leader of the Jerusalem church. The book of James was written to saved Jews, not gentiles, and it states that in the 1st sentence. It seems to contradict other passages of the Bible but it was written to those under the fulfilled law. The gentiles have never been under the law at all, fulfilled or not. It's one of the earlier books written and it's generally believed that the church was still mostly Jews at the time.
He said that faith without works is dead. That's often misused to say that works are necessary for salvation. However, James was writing to those already saved. He wasn't telling them how to be saved but rather how to live with the salvation they already had. That distinction is very important.

Didn't he also say in that context that even the devils believe?

Yeah, here it is: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

The implication is that faith alone won't save a devil, so neither will it save you. One must also be bound to Christ, and aligned with him, in his acts and intentions.

There you go. Satan has belief and faith in Jesus. But has not repented. And apparently will not or cannot.

God's purpose in allowing him to continue I do not understand. But Satan definitely would know exactly who Jesus is and who sent him.

It is a complicated business.

A Methodist preacher from our Parish (county) seat wrote a newspaper article saying it was his belief that Satan was no more than the evil nature that exists in every human and not a real entity. And that God allowed that evil nature to exist to test the human race. As in to test who could overcome the evil when presented with the choice.

Do you not see a difference between knowing who Jesus is, and knowing who sent Him…and putting your trust and confidence in Him and Him alone for your salvation…?

You’ve noted that Hindus and Muslims believe in Jesus. But do they put their trust and confidence in Him and Him alone for their salvation…? Do Hindus and Muslims, even though you’ve noted that they believe in Jesus, believe that Jesus is their Savior…?

You can't compare Satan and the demons' belief to ours. They were created already saved but they rebelled and lost it. We are born lost and need salvation. It's completely opposite. The demons knew from their beginning exactly who Jesus is but Satan led them astray. Now they tremble because they know what they've thrown away and what's coming in the end.

Then you need to go back in time and tell James about that. He was clearly drawing a comparison between the benefit dead faith does for devils and the benefit dead faith does for living people.

Believers have faith. The demons have knowledge. There's a big difference. They had their chance and threw it away. They turned their backs on the redeemer and there's no turning back. They're like people who have fallen away. There's no going back.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

After reading this to my wife, her immediate reaction was, "That is pathetic." If you want to help me stop using your opinion and post Scripture.

What I'm telling you is that you never speak of grace or mercy because you don't understand them. When have you ever made a post speaking of God's grace and mercy? I've never seen it, but you are Johnny on the spot to find any verse about judgement.

The falling away in those verses is referring to Jews who have heard the gospel and rejected it going back to Jewish ways of animal sacrifice. It is NOT speaking about Christians who do wrong after salvation.

I think James was speaking in general terms more so as an expert on demonology. I take it as more of a simple admonition to show good works than as him laying down absolutes about salvation requirements and laws governing demons. If you interpret it wrongly to say works are necessary than you have to discount all of Romans as false and many other scriptures. As I've said many times scripture must be interpreted so that it all agrees, otherwise you have misunderstood.

How do you know what you are posting here? You seem to be the lone voice saying what you are saying about this Scripture in the years since I first read It Scripture forty-eight years ago.

Maybe you could enlighten us what Apostle Paul meant when he wrote, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...." And speaking or Romans. Apostle Paul says something about, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

So we see faith, that is belief results in righteousness. And we see confession, works, results in salvation. That's why Jesus says, "Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you can't be saved." You have to have faith in Jesus, which they didn't have.

I have yet to read anything regarding God's plan of salvation from RHClark that struck me as wrong.

I doubt I have read all his posts, but he has clearly studied and understands the "analogy of faith".

Tarbe,

What are your qualifications to analyze RHClark's posts?

Read Romans 13:1-6 and tell me Paul was not a crackpot or a Roman agent. If a witness once gives provable false testimony his testimony is no longer accepted.

All you have to do is take a deep dive into what the top Greek scholars say about these verses Heb6:4-6 and very similar passages in Heb.10: 26-31 you will see that the admonition is written to Hebrews or in other words Jews who had heard the Gospel of Christ but had rejected it and choose to practice Judaism.

I am sorry no one has ever been educated enough in the scripture to explain it to you before. As you can see when interpreted in this light the passages still agree with salvation by grace through faith. They simply plead with the Jewish people not to reject Christ or suffer damnation.

What the hell are you talking about false testimony? You know what I took from those verses? I'll translate. Those in charge are in charge by God's will so don't be unnecessarily rebellious. I did not take it that it was necessary to follow an ungodly ruler. I assume Paul took that as a given because not having to follow an ungodly ruler is clearly spelled out in other scripture. Paul is just assuming that he doesn't have to explain what anyone who knows scripture should know.

Maybe he was writing satire? Otherwise that is indefensible. I think he may have been both a crackpot and a Roman agent. The two are not mutually exclusive.

How is it indefensible? What exactly do you think those passages say? Just say it in your own words. I don't want your opinion about what it says. I want you to tell me what you think those passages say. I would honestly like to know why you have any problem with them.

Still Paul-basing, eh? You have really dug in your heels and stiffened your neck. You are a deceiver, a false teacher, and an enemy of truth. But you are persistent in denying God’s Word.

Again, to criticize Paul is to criticize Jesus, the Word. Dangerous ground….

Do you believe the gospel of grace for your salvation that was revealed to Paul by the risen Lord? If not, what do you believe, if anything, for your salvation?

I believe the OT and the good news of salvation preached by John the Baptist and his cousin Jesus

I care enough about the scriptures to have spent a goodly portion of the last 26 years of my life studying them.

But don't take my word for anything, be a Berean, as I am sure you know you are supposed to be (because you also study, right?).

And don't forget the analogy of faith, or audience relevance, or the nuances of the Greek language.

Sadly, most don't have a clue about what they're pushing.

You’re referring to the OT gospel of the kingdom, which taught faith and works, repentance, water baptismm, and keeping the law, all 613 commands of the law. Do you keep all 613 commands of the OT law?

John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 preached the gospel of the kingdom, Matthew 3:2, 4:23

I believe the OT and the good news of salvation preached by John the Baptist and his cousin Jesus[/quote]

You’re referring to the OT gospel of the kingdom, which taught faith and works, repentance, water baptismm, and keeping the law, all 613 commands of the law. Do you keep all 613 commands of the OT law?

John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 preached the gospel of the kingdom, Matthew 3:2, 4:23[/quote]



By Hastings: Well Whitetail you have me. I thought I was ok by following the big 10 and the dietary laws. But after reading into it I see that I've messed up in that I married a Gentile. Of course she did also. Alot of the laws I've been obeying pretty well by not having my latrine too close to the camp but I've been lax in not killing adulteresses and a few other infractions. I have been able to avoid the incest and sodomy infractions but I haven't been up to killing those folks either. Once I did loan my nephew some money to buy a truck and charged him 10% interest when nobody else would finance him (took a chance there, but he paid). I'll be looking into it and see what I can do and in the meantime I'll try to keep the big 10, the dietary rules, and the Saturday Sabbath except if my ox gets in a ditch or needs water.

In the meantime I am going to ask you for a favor. Judge not lest ye be judged.

You’re referring to the OT gospel of the kingdom, which taught faith and works, repentance, water baptismm, and keeping the law, all 613 commands of the law. Do you keep all 613 commands of the OT law?

John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 preached the gospel of the kingdom, Matthew 3:2, 4:23[/quote]


By Hastings: Well Whitetail you have me. I thought I was ok by following the big 10 and the dietary laws. But after reading into it I see that I've messed up in that I married a Gentile. Of course she did also. Alot of the laws I've been obeying pretty well by not having my latrine too close to the camp but I've been lax in not killing adulteresses and a few other infractions. I have been able to avoid the incest and sodomy infractions but I haven't been up to killing those folks either. Once I did loan my nephew some money to buy a truck and charged him 10% interest when nobody else would finance him (took a chance there, but he paid). I'll be looking into it and see what I can do and in the meantime I'll try to keep the big 10, the dietary rules, and the Saturday Sabbath except if my ox gets in a ditch or needs water.

In the meantime I am going to ask you for a favor. Judge not lest ye be judged.[/quote]

But you continue to judge Paul, the one Jesus Himself chose as the apostle to preach His gospel of grace after Jesus was crucified and ascended to heaven.

So say ye, but Jesus never said.

I've never put frankincense or olive oil on a sin offering made of flour so I'm good for two more there. But I have failed to observe Yom-Kippur and messed up on that scapegoat thing. My wife had a hysterectomy years ago so the whole uncleanness of a menstruating woman business is no problem. We can sleep together every night. The leprosy laws thank God don't apply. The Nazarite laws I believe I'm exempt from. I've so far avoided going to war so all those rules I'm clear on.

There's a bunch more but I'll report back in after I study up on it but it appears that there aren't anywhere near 613 laws I could have any opportunity to violate. Like the ones about the king not acquiring too many horses or wives. I actually sold my last horse over a year ago and I'm very satisfied with the one wife I've had for 36 years and anyway I'm not a king.

You know Jesus did endorse the law, he just said don't make an ass out of the law when he was rebuked for healing ''a daughter of Abraham" on the sabbath. You will be judged according to your works and most importantly following the spirit of the law, not its technicalities. And yes faith and grace are part of it also. Faith without works is dead.

You assume a lot. I have one friend with a Masters in Religious Education and another with a Ph.D. in Biblical philosophy. The Masters can read the Greed and the other fellow can read the Hebrew and the Greek. We have discussed most topics in the Christian world and never have either said the things you say. Like I said before, if you want to help me, use the Bible. Commentaries and other people's opinions are no better than mine. We need to depend on God's Word.

Your first sentence is enough. Adding other books is a waste of time.

The first four years I was a Christian I used four Greek books and a Hebrew interlinear to learn what the Bible "really" says. I had full SETS of commentaries. They contradicted each other and at time God's Word. I finally concluded the translators pretty much agree and all we have to do to learn what God wants is read a Bible in the language we normally use. There's no need to learn "nuances of the Greek language" to learn John 3:16 or Mark 16:16. Or even John 14:15 and John 15:14.

That's one of many interpretations - maybe God can sort it out sooner rather than later. People's souls depend on it.

I think those passages say exactly what they say. I don't need to paraphrase them. And unless Paul (or whoever wrote it) was writing satire those 6 verses discredit Paul completely. Read it yourself from several translations. It is clear what he is saying.

By the way. As per WhiteTail's inquiry I'm studying up on the 613 Jewish laws/rules. I'm in the clear on most of them. I did fall short by marrying a Gentile but at least she was born female and is not a relative. I haven't yet gotten around to stoning sex criminals, and I did lend a member of my tribe some money at interest once. So I got to straighten up on a few things.

How is Paul's statement substantially different than JESUS - ' statement - 'render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's'

Or HIS recognition that Pilate DID have the authority to set HIM free or put him to death.... AND where that 'authority' originated.....

BOTH seem to be an admission that the earthly governments have a place.....