The underlying word suggests 'complete', and points to quantity, rather than the quality.......
When 'the PERFECT(complete) Law of Liberty' is here, these 'partial' things will cease..........
HEB 9 the way into the Holy Place is hindered as long as the tabernacle is standing..........
We have the perfect Law of Liberty, the gifts are no longer needed.......
What ever the gifts provide, if they continue, is either more than Scripture, Less than Scripture, or the same as Scripture........ whichever, they are no longer needed....
Paul says 'we have been given everything pertaining to life and Godliness', in the first century... but the temple was still a hindrance in some fashion....
Christians are indeed the Temple of GOD, and HE with the Spirit dwells in us.........
But, I have yet to meet a man that has or possesses the miraculous gifts of the Spirit....... though several have claimed to.
...Faith without hearing
...Knowledge without study
...and any of the other miraculous gifts
IMHU
Thanks for taking time to answer my question. What do you say about Ephesians 4:11-13
"And He gave some apostles, and some prophets and some evangelists, and some pastors and teacher for the equipping of the holy ones for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ."?
From AD30 to 70, or there abouts, the church was 'under construction', beginning on Pentecost and 'fully formed' by the destruction of the Temple.
For the first 20 years +/- Truth was laid out by the miraculous, Apostles, prophets, and likely possessed in some measure by the remainder.
IMHO, beginning with the letter sent out from the Jerusalem Conference, roughly 50AD, and contained in Acts 15, Truth began to be written down, and preserved, to the point where the miraculous would no longer be necessary....
I know of only one sect that claims to have present day apostles, there are many that claim to have prophets, and some that claim revelations, presumably of 'new' truth, there are certainly evangelists and teachers in all.
Paul lays out in Titus and Timothy the need for elders or pastors, shepherds..... and that without them the church is 'lacking, or not in order'........ their duty and work is shown in several passages...
If the written word is authoritative and complete, the miraculous is no longer necessary..... And Paul points out a time when that would be, though not a specific 'date and time'.....
As an aside I believe the letter, contained in Acts 15, to be the first NT pen to paper Scripture. It doesn't matter whether it was first or not, I just think it was....
In the 7 churches I think we see mature churches..... problems???? Absolutely. And shortly after, the destruction of the temple, there was no 'going back'............
IMHU....
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Lately I’ve been thinking about the many “if” statements that Paul makes throughout the letters to the Corinthians. I haven’t done a word search yet but I’m wondering about them as to context.
It would be easy to read them as acknowledgement, if these things are present. However, I started thinking about context and wonder if those statements are really meant as hypotheticals.
Any idea? I haven’t had a chance to do the research yet.
Honestly, haven't thought about them specifically.............
A quick answer is, are they used in the similar way he uses 'so then', 'therefore' or 'since'??? IDK.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Regarding the OP: Some folks think that the Jewish people have been living partially in the dark for the last 2,000 years because they rejected the light that entered the world. Present day demographics show that a huge number of Jews living in Israel today are not religious Jews.
Some folks point out that present day Israeli Jews are clearly not people who are sitting by the Jordan River singing psalms to Yahweh and studying the Torah. And some folks assert that the nation of Israel that has existed since 1948 is not the same Israel that was guided by God throughout the OT, and that the only connection that exists between then and now is by the name “Israel” and by the common rejection of Jesus as the Messiah.
Are these views skewed, flat-out inaccurate, or are they accurate…?
Orthodox Jews are exempt from mandatory military service, live on welfare their entire lives so they can "study" the talmud. How many Americans have died defending Israeli Orthodox Jews the past 50 years?
Regarding the OP: Some folks think that the Jewish people have been living partially in the dark for the last 2,000 years because they rejected the light that entered the world. Present day demographics show that a huge number of Jews living in Israel today are not religious Jews.
Some folks point out that present day Israeli Jews are clearly not people who are sitting by the Jordan River singing psalms to Yahweh and studying the Torah. And some folks assert that the nation of Israel that has existed since 1948 is not the same Israel that was guided by God throughout the OT, and that the only connection that exists between then and now is by the name “Israel” and by the common rejection of Jesus as the Messiah.
Are these views skewed, flat-out inaccurate, or are they accurate…?
YOU think about it. You’re the one on a very slippery slope…
I will think about it. And I appreciate the fact that you are a sincere man.
But I want you to know that I am not skeptical of Jesus.
But his self proclaimed friends have been causing havoc for centuries.
What you are saying isn't even logical. You are not skeptical of Jesus? Do you have a direct line to Jesus? Aren't you reading ABOUT Jesus from books also written by his so-called friends? All you are doing is saying you are smarter than all the scholars before you to be able to choose which friends to believe.
YOU think about it. You’re the one on a very slippery slope…
I will think about it. And I appreciate the fact that you are a sincere man.
But I want you to know that I am not skeptical of Jesus.
But his self proclaimed friends have been causing havoc for centuries.
What you are saying isn't even logical. You are not skeptical of Jesus? Do you have a direct line to Jesus? Aren't you reading ABOUT Jesus from books also written by his so-called friends? All you are doing is saying you are smarter than all the scholars before you to be able to choose which friends to believe.
Yes, I don't have an agenda.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
YOU think about it. You’re the one on a very slippery slope…
I will think about it. And I appreciate the fact that you are a sincere man.
But I want you to know that I am not skeptical of Jesus.
But his self proclaimed friends have been causing havoc for centuries.
What you are saying isn't even logical. You are not skeptical of Jesus? Do you have a direct line to Jesus? Aren't you reading ABOUT Jesus from books also written by his so-called friends? All you are doing is saying you are smarter than all the scholars before you to be able to choose which friends to believe.
Yes, I don't have an agenda.
That's good to hear. I can't however understand your exact complaints with any scripture. The way you properly interpret scripture is with other scripture. If some passages seem to contradict others, then you have misunderstood one or the other. You shouldn't simply reject everything that doesn't sound right. You take the time and study to consolidate the passages into a clear comprehensive meaning.
In this manner Paul's writings completely agree with any other scripture and actually add clarity to the whole picture "IF" you understand what you are reading.
The way you wrote "IF" reminds me of the "IF" at the top of the page where the word "if" is found. For example Romans 8:17 reads. "and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Another example is Romans 11:22: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
Another is 1 Corinthians 15:2 where we discover: "by which also you were saved if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."
We serve a harsh God; Who is harsh to those who do not continue in His love.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
The way you wrote "IF" reminds me of the "IF" at the top of the page where the word "if" is found. For example Romans 8:17 reads. "and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Another example is Romans 11:22: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
Another is 1 Corinthians 15:2 where we discover: "by which also you were saved if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."
We serve a harsh God; Who is harsh to those who do not continue in His love.
My God isn't nearly as harsh as yours. I have the benefit of mercy and grace. You have a fearful expectation of judgement. The sad part is in the end, when you have to face all the truth, you will realize you weren't good enough. I already know I'm not and it doesn't matter.
The old testament is what... was... a continuous line of descendants God directly needed to communicate with, generation to generation. Leaders that then took the word to the people, otherwise they wouldn't hear it.
Jesus was the last descendent, the bible stopped after him... he was the last word, last leader, communication was taken from individual men to the masses and given individually to man through the Holy Spirit.
Kent
Jesus very clearly stated that all of the old testament books, the law and the prophets clearly spoke about him. Do with that what you will, but not all of the old testament is in part a denial of Christ.
That depends on whether we are talking about the Septuagint which was translated into Greek from original Hebrew texts or the Masoretic texts which were rewrites of the Greek texts in the 800s or so, to try and disprove Jesus as the Messiah.
The way you wrote "IF" reminds me of the "IF" at the top of the page where the word "if" is found. For example Romans 8:17 reads. "and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Another example is Romans 11:22: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
Another is 1 Corinthians 15:2 where we discover: "by which also you were saved if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."
We serve a harsh God; Who is harsh to those who do not continue in His love.
My God isn't nearly as harsh as yours. I have the benefit of mercy and grace. You have a fearful expectation of judgement. The sad part is in the end, when you have to face all the truth, you will realize you weren't good enough. I already know I'm not and it doesn't matter.
Because I quoted some Scripture right from God's Word you think I am trying to earn my salvation? That is an amazing leap. Did your God tell Eve, "I will greatly multiply your pain..."? Did your God tell Moses, "If I see the blood, I will pass. If I don't see the blood I will kill every first born human and animal at this property."? Did your God tell Noah, "I'm going to kill everyone and everything with the breath of life in their nostrils."? Did your God say, "For after all it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His Power,"?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
The way you wrote "IF" reminds me of the "IF" at the top of the page where the word "if" is found. For example Romans 8:17 reads. "and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Another example is Romans 11:22: "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
Another is 1 Corinthians 15:2 where we discover: "by which also you were saved if you hold fast the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."
We serve a harsh God; Who is harsh to those who do not continue in His love.
My God isn't nearly as harsh as yours. I have the benefit of mercy and grace. You have a fearful expectation of judgement. The sad part is in the end, when you have to face all the truth, you will realize you weren't good enough. I already know I'm not and it doesn't matter.
Because I quoted some Scripture right from God's Word you think I am trying to earn my salvation? That is an amazing leap. Did your God tell Eve, "I will greatly multiply your pain..."? Did your God tell Moses, "If I see the blood, I will pass. If I don't see the blood I will kill every first born human and animal at this property."? Did your God tell Noah, "I'm going to kill everyone and everything with the breath of life in their nostrils."? Did your God say, "For after all it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His Power,"?
No! Because you constantly try to make the conversation about your perceived conditions for salvation. You only do this because you think you meet or exceed those conditions better than anyone else you know. This type of rhetoric is all you ever post about Christianity or salvation. I'm actually still trying to help you.
James was adamant about keeping Jewish law, Acts 21:17-26, and clearly didn’t understand the process of sanctification and that believers of Paul’s gospel were under grace, not the Mosaic law. James only knew of the OT prophetic program and wrote his epistle before Acts 15.
James was Jesus' brother and likely didn't become a believer until after the resurrection. He wasn't one of the disciples who'd followed Jesus for 3 years and he hadn't had the benefit of Jesus' words like the apostles. After he was saved, he quickly rose to become the leader of the Jerusalem church. The book of James was written to saved Jews, not gentiles, and it states that in the 1st sentence. It seems to contradict other passages of the Bible but it was written to those under the fulfilled law. The gentiles have never been under the law at all, fulfilled or not. It's one of the earlier books written and it's generally believed that the church was still mostly Jews at the time. He said that faith without works is dead. That's often misused to say that works are necessary for salvation. However, James was writing to those already saved. He wasn't telling them how to be saved but rather how to live with the salvation they already had. That distinction is very important.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
James was Jesus' brother and likely didn't become a believer until after the resurrection. He wasn't one of the disciples who'd followed Jesus for 3 years and he hadn't had the benefit of Jesus' words like the apostles. After he was saved, he quickly rose to become the leader of the Jerusalem church. The book of James was written to saved Jews, not gentiles, and it states that in the 1st sentence. It seems to contradict other passages of the Bible but it was written to those under the fulfilled law. The gentiles have never been under the law at all, fulfilled or not. It's one of the earlier books written and it's generally believed that the church was still mostly Jews at the time. He said that faith without works is dead. That's often misused to say that works are necessary for salvation. However, James was writing to those already saved. He wasn't telling them how to be saved but rather how to live with the salvation they already had. That distinction is very important.
Didn't he also say in that context that even the devils believe?
Yeah, here it is: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
The implication is that faith alone won't save a devil, so neither will it save you. One must also be bound to Christ, and aligned with him, in his acts and intentions.
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