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Campfire Ranger
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Regardless of what God did in the old testament, he has a different approach now... he has Christ and the Holy Spirit rather than the constantly directing generational human characters.
Kent
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I’ve studied it pretty extensively. That’s only one example. This is awesomeness of God and not something that we can understand. Not do we need to defend God and what He declares of Himself.
This is the awesomeness and awfulness of God and why we should rightfully respect and fear him. Crocodile Dundee said that God and me, we be mates. In modernity we may have too cavalier an attitude. As C S Lewis said in the Chronicle of Narnia. He is not a tame Lion. As such, He does what he will, even preaching to Israel in such a way as to keep them from understanding. You've been fed a line. Most of it comes from bad translations. God is awesome but not in the way you think. You make him sound like an all-powerful petty tyrant that should be worshiped just because he could squish you. That's the damn lie that has driven many good people far from a Church and most of what's wrong with Christianity as preached today.
Last edited by RHClark; 05/02/23.
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Campfire Tracker
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Excuse me?
It is clear in the text that both pharaoh and God hardened Pharaohs heart. There are many text in the OT that speak of other ways in which God hides Himself from people.
Matthew 13
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Take it up with God.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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Agreed. Wholeheartedly. The old covenant (the Mosaic Law) was clearly retired by Jesus Himself when He instituted His New Covenant. Jesus came into this world to introduce something brand new. He didn’t come here to expand Judaism ~ this wasn’t Judaism 2.0 ~ He came to establish something brand new to the world and for the world: a New Covenant that would forever change man’s relationship with God. Jesus ushered in a brand new arrangement between God and man.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Is that the relationship where the Holy Spirit teaches you things that totally conflict with scripture?
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Campfire Ranger
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It seems to me…and others here…that your assertions regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual lives of Jesus’ followers totally conflict with scripture. On the last night before He was killed, Jesus told His followers, “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor, Counselor, Strengthener), to be with you forever — the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive (and take to its heart) because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He (the Holy Spirit) remains with you continually and will be in you.” Later on, Jesus told His followers that, “the Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor, Counselor, Strengthener), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name (in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf), He will teach you all things. And He will help you remember everything that I have told you.” And then Jesus says a most interesting thing to His followers; He says, “Peace I leave with you; My (perfect) peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid. (Let My perfect peace calm you in every circumstance and give you courage and strength for every challenge).” And Jesus told His followers, “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor, Counselor, Strengthener) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him (the Holy Spirit) to you (to be in close fellowship with you).” Jesus seems to be telling His followers that having His Spirit inside of them is even better than having Him physically by their side. The Holy Spirit relates to Jesus’ followers individually and personally, that’s why Jesus used words like Advocate and Guide and Counselor and Helper, because the Holy Spirit is those things directly to Jesus’ followers individually and personally. There’s something to be said for the peace that transcends all understanding (it was experientially referred to earlier on the other thread by another poster); for example, you feel financial peace, relational peace, and spiritual peace. Paul listed the fruit of the Spirit that Jesus’ followers get because the Spirit of God lives in them. Jesus’ followers are literally a walking, breathing temple of the Holy Spirit that dwells in them. The same Spirit that brought Jesus back to life is alive in His followers. Some choose to confine the Spirit of God to the space between the covers of a book, and they assert that God ‘only’ reveals Himself through the Bible. I’m not one of em’.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Tracker
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And yet the Holy Spirit has led you into “truth” which is in direct conflict with scripture and history.
Your explanation is Bu-ll sh-it.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,576 Likes: 13
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,576 Likes: 13 |
It seems to me…and others here…that your assertions regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the individual lives of Jesus’ followers totally conflict with scripture and history.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,576 Likes: 13
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,576 Likes: 13 |
Your explanation is Bu-ll sh-it. Take it up with God.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Aug 2021
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Excuse me?
It is clear in the text that both pharaoh and God hardened Pharaohs heart. There are many text in the OT that speak of other ways in which God hides Himself from people.
Matthew 13
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Take it up with God. Yes, as translated in the KJV it would seem so. It is however a poor translation. Look into Kenneth S Wuest word studies of those scriptures to see a comprehensive translation as agreed open by the top Hebrew scholars of the 20'th century. You will see that the way I explained it before is correct according to the experts. Are you trying to learn what was originally said or trying to prove what you think?
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Is that the relationship where the Holy Spirit teaches you things that totally conflict with scripture? Not at all but when you read scripture that portrays God as different to what your heart says, you should investigate what the scripture really says.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’ You should read those passages from the Wuest Word studies?
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Yes, as translated in the KJV it would seem so. It is however a poor translation. Look into Kenneth S Wuest word studies of those scriptures to see a comprehensive translation as agreed open by the top Hebrew scholars of the 20'th century. You will see that the way I explained it before is correct according to the experts. Who are the Hebrew scholars?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,094 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,094 Likes: 5 |
You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’ You should read those passages from the Wuest Word studies? Just find it ironic IZH27 quotes those words... Kent
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,094 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Anyway, I much prefer that I can follow Christ as my leader rather that a Moses or David.
Kent
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,652 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Excuse me?
It is clear in the text that both pharaoh and God hardened Pharaohs heart. There are many text in the OT that speak of other ways in which God hides Himself from people.
Matthew 13
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Take it up with God. Yes, as translated in the KJV it would seem so. It is however a poor translation. Look into Kenneth S Wuest word studies of those scriptures to see a comprehensive translation as agreed open by the top Hebrew scholars of the 20'th century. You will see that the way I explained it before is correct according to the experts. Are you trying to learn what was originally said or trying to prove what you think? I prefer going to the inter linear. This avoids someone’s opinion. There are many areas where there are tensions in scripture. There are things that God says which don’t make sense to human intellect. This is such a scripture. God is equal in all of His attributes without fault. Otherwise, God is not God. He can harden a heart and yet be just in the hardening, withholding etc. As creature God does not owe us explanation and explanation is not always give. I can live with that. In reality I don’t desire a God that I can fully understand because such a God is likely my own imagination and making.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Is that the relationship where the Holy Spirit teaches you things that totally conflict with scripture? Not at all but when you read scripture that portrays God as different to what your heart says, you should investigate what the scripture really says. Scripture also teaches us about the deception and dishonesty of our hearts and goes into far more detail concerning knowledge, understanding, right understanding (the intellect) than the enthusiast view of hyper spiritualism. Consider that man was made for the earth. It is in the day in and day out that God comes to us and in which we exist. To elevate the spiritual above the physical is to commit error. All of our being fell and all of our being is addressed in redemption. Not just the spirit or the spirit to a higher degree.
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Campfire Tracker
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Your explanation is Bu-ll sh-it. Take it up with God. That’s the beauty of the whole thing. Your bullsh-it is yours. I don’t have to answer for it but you will. You place God the Father’s will into conflict with the actions and words of Christ and the clearly written text and accepted history all the while saying that he Holy Spirit made you do it.
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Campfire Tracker
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Is that the relationship where the Holy Spirit teaches you things that totally conflict with scripture? Not at all but when you read scripture that portrays God as different to what your heart says, you should investigate what the scripture really says. You imply that I haven’t. That implication has no basis. Early in my adult life I was faced with having to question all that I was raised to believe because of glaring errors and questions that arose from study. I eventually learned that I couldn’t read what others said about what someone said because those sources quickly devolved into second, third, fourth person. Original source and reading the actual opposing view is where a man can meet the reality of the disagreement and find truth. In your studies do you go to that extreme or do you read someone else’s view on what someone said? Granted, we will all do that to a degree more or less, but, do you try to fully wrap your thinking around opposing views?
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