I think that what you (JoeBob) say in your post above should certainly be at least considered as possibly what really is. Based upon Josephus’ historical writings, in addition to what history tells us about the absolute destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, this was all a HUGE series of events lasting years. Life-changing for the entirety of the ancient Israelites. Certainly big enough that it would have been mentioned by the historical writers of the New Testament if any of it had happened prior to those historical documents having been written.
I think that it can be argued persuasively that all of the books of the New Testament…in addition to nearly all of the events that they describe (including the Revelation)…happened before 70 AD ~ before the Temple and Jerusalem was completely destroyed.
Well, a lot events with the temple and all that are foretold in Daniel which was hundreds of years before the New Testament. Then of course, Jesus foretold some of the events and specifically mentioned “the Abomination of Desolation.” Which, of course, a lot of people think referenced the Anti-Christ.
I think he well could have been referring to Vespasion and Titus. The emperor was referred to as “The Son of God”. That is specifically “anti-Christ” and most definitely an abomination. As for desolation I am reminded of the account of a barbarian who said of the Romans, “They make a desert and call it peace.” The Romans were desolation incarnate to many ancient peoples. The destroyed Carthage and literally salted the earth. They destroyed countless peoples. Brutality like theirs was common in the ancient world. What was uncommon was their efficiency and thoroughness.
Is it possible that a great many people, especially Christians, are interpreting the Revelation in a way that is different from what really is…?
A not insignificant number of people, especially Christians, think that most of the prophecies in the Revelation were fulfilled not long after John wrote em.’ The Revelation opens and closes with declarations indicating that the things revealed in the book “must soon take place.” It also opens and closes with declarations indicating that “the time is near.”
These folks see the Revelation having a direct relevance to the real historical first century churches to whom it was addressed, and that the text of the book itself points to the imminent fulfillment of most of its prophecies.
Are they wrong…?
The burden of proof for your view does not stand the test of time. From all appearances the whole of your theological understanding is based upon Dispensational theology.
That theological view is an unbiblical view that is maybe 200 years old. Nothing changed to bring in this “new understanding”. In the beginning the teachings of Dispensationalism were very radical. Its proponents have tamed down the tenants of the doctrine over time.
There is a problem that exists and that proponents of this view cannot or won’t answer. If it is truth why did the church NOT teach the doctrine for 1800 years?
It has the credibility of the doctrines that are based on secret numbers and secret codes.
Again, I think that what you (JoeBob) are saying in your above posts should certainly be at least considered as possibly what really is.
Is it unreasonable to reject other key elements of dispensationalism that have been prevalent for just the past 200 or so years…?
When discussing Jesus’ teachings on the Mount of Olives…often called the “Olivet Discourse”…is it unreasonable to reject the standard dispensationalist position that Jesus is mainly talking about future events ~ such as describing the events around the “Seven Year Great Tribulation” as pertaining specifically to the End Times ~ and instead take the position that most of what Jesus is prophesying about is instead pertaining specifically to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD…?
I respectfully disagree. I think it’s totally reasonable to reject dispensation theology.
The apostles did not teach dispensational theology. It’s only been accepted for 200 years of the 2000 year history of the church. 1/10th of the time of the modern church.
Another strong argument against dispensational theology is the fact that Christ’s very words concerning himself throughout the entirety of the old Testament have to be disregarded or discarded for dispensational theology to be true. Dispensationalism can only stand in the presence of revision of history.
Like most people here, I, too, was born and raised with that theology. It took a bit of study, but I eventually had to give in and realize that the witness of history, the witness of the apostles, the witness of the early church fathers and sound biblical reasoning would not allow me to embrace it any longer.
I’ll throw out another line of thought which I don’t really believe but which is possible and should be considered against the absolute certainty many Christians have regarding today’s Israel. Dispensationalism could be right and modern Israel could still be destroyed. If modern Israel were destroyed and every Jew there scattered or killed, there are still more Jews in the US than in Israel today. Since we never know exactly when a prophecy is to be fulfilled, the modern Israel that dispensationalists say is necessary might not come about for another 500 years, long after this one is gone. Who knows? I’m merely making the point that if every Jew in Israel was gone tomorrow, there are still lots of Jews left.
Just maybe a great sign of intelligence is recognizing that there’s a helluva lot of ‘stuff’ that we can’t understand and has to be taken for faith alone!!
Were the old testament prophecies given to specific people in specific historical contexts…? It seems that most of the old testament prophecies deal with impending judgments upon either Israel or Judah or the nations that oppressed Israel. And they also contain glimpses of ultimate future restoration. If we approach the old testament prophetic books with a basically preterist position ~ if we recognize that they speak largely of impending events ~ but also deal at times with the distant future, does it seem appropriate that our position should also be in favor of the same basic approach to the prophetic book of Revelation…?
Originally Posted by IZH27
I respectfully disagree.
I’m not sure what it is that we “disagree” on regarding dispensational theology…?
One of the biggest things I've struggled with concerning the Bible is this very subject. It has been very hard to believe that the Jews are still His chosen people,....... But, nowhere in the Bible does it say that they are not. I guess it's one of those things I'll always have trouble believing.
James, watch this video & I think you'll gain some clarity on this subject.
The story about how Christianity was hijacked.....
Marching to Zion - documentary (Full Movie). God's chosen people. Pastor Steven Anderson.
The Ancient Israelites were God’s chosen people. Are they still God’s chosen people nowadays ~ Is the current nation of Israel still God’s ‘chosen’ nation…?
They took a poll a while back in Israel asking that very question. The answer was a resounding yes. They also believe it is their destiny to rule the world. PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
If the Jews are still God’s chosen people and God will protect them and bless them, what is the impetus for them to convert? If they sre delivered, would not a rational interpretation of that deliverance be that they are correct in their rejection of Jesus?
The Ancient Israelites were God’s chosen people. Are they still God’s chosen people nowadays ~ Is the current nation of Israel still God’s ‘chosen’ nation…?
Originally Posted by antlers
Is the nation of Israel that has existed since 1948 the same Israel that was guided by God throughout the OT…? There’s a firm allegiance that many people have…a lotta Christians in particular…to the belief that the nation of Israel of today remains God’s chosen people.
Many Christians, and many others, believe that the Israel of today…the one founded in 1948…continues to have a special status with God. And they believe that to be against Israel…for any reason…means to be against God, despite their (mostly) strong detestation of Jesus. Are they still the “chosen” people of Yahweh…?
Does it smell right ~ that those (mostly) who flat out detest Jesus can still be divinely cherished…? Is it possible that people…including many mainline evangelicals…are drinking the Kool-Aid of Christian Zionism…?
Does the nation of Israel…just like all of the nations of the world…need Jesus, the risen Savior…? Is salvation possible apart from Jesus…? As things stand, does the rejection of Jesus result in an eternity apart from God…? Does the view that people…whether Jews or Gentiles…who outright reject the Son of God, and still be saved a fallacy or not…?
Is it possible, or even probable, that many people…and especially many Christians…have accepted a false bill of goods about the nation of Israel today and their current place in God’s economy…?
Can it be that the people of Israel nowadays are the same as every other group of human beings on the earth…the same as you and me…in the sense that they are fallen and in need of salvation. Can it be that the only “chosen” people are the ones who follow the Chosen One, who is Jesus…?
Originally Posted by 673
Those are questions I struggle with today.
What of the notion that Jesus’ ekklesia (the Church) is the real Israel nowadays…the spiritual Israel…those who choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus offers to all of the people in all of the world ~ and ‘they’ are heirs of the promises made to Abraham…?
The Ancient Israelites were God’s chosen people. Are they still God’s chosen people nowadays ~ Is the current nation of Israel still God’s ‘chosen’ nation…?
Originally Posted by antlers
Is the nation of Israel that has existed since 1948 the same Israel that was guided by God throughout the OT…? There’s a firm allegiance that many people have…a lotta Christians in particular…to the belief that the nation of Israel of today remains God’s chosen people.
Many Christians, and many others, believe that the Israel of today…the one founded in 1948…continues to have a special status with God. And they believe that to be against Israel…for any reason…means to be against God, despite their (mostly) strong detestation of Jesus. Are they still the “chosen” people of Yahweh…?
Does it smell right ~ that those (mostly) who flat out detest Jesus can still be divinely cherished…? Is it possible that people…including many mainline evangelicals…are drinking the Kool-Aid of Christian Zionism…?
Does the nation of Israel…just like all of the nations of the world…need Jesus, the risen Savior…? Is salvation possible apart from Jesus…? As things stand, does the rejection of Jesus result in an eternity apart from God…? Does the view that people…whether Jews or Gentiles…who outright reject the Son of God, and still be saved a fallacy or not…?
Is it possible, or even probable, that many people…and especially many Christians…have accepted a false bill of goods about the nation of Israel today and their current place in God’s economy…?
Can it be that the people of Israel nowadays are the same as every other group of human beings on the earth…the same as you and me…in the sense that they are fallen and in need of salvation. Can it be that the only “chosen” people are the ones who follow the Chosen One, who is Jesus…?
Originally Posted by 673
Those are questions I struggle with today.
What of the notion that Jesus’ ekklesia (the Church) is the real Israel nowadays…the spiritual Israel…those who choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus offers to all of the people in all of the world ~ and ‘they’ are heirs of the promises made to Abraham…?
Just saw your comment on this; I agree totally if I’m interpreting on correctly that we in the New Testament, post 70 AD, are spiritual Israel. Physical Israel are not Gods chosen people of the OT. They broke their covent with God and received the curse rather than the blessings. It remains to be seen of the future is really people. I hope and pray that there will be a massive turning to Jesus someday in Israel.
“No one in hell can ever say I went to Christ and He rejected me.
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