Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Pre 64 Winchester Model 70 Magnums

I've collected quite a few milsurps, none of which has the power of a magnum. Was there a commercial bolt action rifle used for dangerous game before the Winchester Model 70? The H&H magnums were a caliber option in the Pre-War Model 70's and I expect many were chambered in the 300 & 375 Magnums, but don't know how many. I see more 300's for sale than 375's. I'm thinking of each, but mostly in keeping the 375 as a collectable. I doubt I would ever hunt with it. Probably a Pre war, or 1950 and earlier being the most collectable. Are there any records of how many Magnums were made Pre 1950? or Pre 64? Are there educated guesses in books, if not actual records?

Thanks

Yes, the main book we consult with is called "The Rifleman's Rifle", written by Roger Rule. This is a well known and trusted source that most of us have access to. According to Rule, here are the amount of H&H rifles made:

300H&H: "37,186" and a "% of Production" of "6.4"

375H&H: "14,005" and a "% of Production" of "2.41"

These numbers are not broken down to exact model type, like the Bull gun, Target model, or Super Grade. Just the amount of rifles made in these chamberings.

Thanks for that info! Does "The Rifleman's Rifle" book say anything about how many were built Pre-War, or any of the Transition examples? The 375 H&H Magnum probably didn't get as much demand as the 300 H&H, because dangerous game wasn't a concern in the lower 48. Recoil could have been a factor also. Was there a significant premium paid for a Magnum Pre-War? There seems to be one today, all things considered equal. I've been trying to do some internet research on the Early Model 70's, and there are a lot of bits and pieces to digest. I should get "Rules" book. Original rifles seem to be few, and figuring out what is original correct is important.

Thanks

Yes, originality is very important when placing a price tag on these rifles for sure. I'm not much help with the exact numbers of pre war H&H rifles produced. Someone here may have a better idea on value of the magnum pre war rifles too. For myself, I prefer the post war because they are drilled and tapped for scope use. The pre war is not going to be drilled and tapped:

Like this for an example. ^^^^ This is a transition model I bought a couple years ago. Paid $600 for it and it was all original, except for the rechambering to 375 WBY!!!!



I actually may have kept it, if it had been drilled and tapped for scope use. However, there are guys that search for 100% all original specimens to add to their collection. To get an idea on value, you can do a search on gunbroker for completed sales. I'll bet there will be very few though. You can also check gunsinternational and see if they have any rifles listed that match your criteria.

...Rule's book: Pages 98/99 Production of .300H&H and .375H&H

1936-1951: .300H&H=12,870
.375H&H=5,274

Interesting numbers to know! Thanks!

The rifle sure looks nice! Did you get a super deal, or did the re-chambering lower the value so much that the rifle was no longer collectable? If you made good money selling it that would indicate a higher more accurate worth point.

It seems gun values have softened some lately. Probably due to the economy, along with all the gun ban legislation threatened, and being enacted. I don't really know what to expect as far as where values are with original 1936-1951 M70 rifles, as well as the individual calibers like the 375 Magnum in particular. Also having something rare may not mean it's popular, which affects prices.

A lot of the rifles I see were drilled and tapped, which is understandable, as they were bought to be hunted with, and scopes have come a long way since 1951.
So the rear left of the receiver was tapped for a diopter, but what were the 2 holes for on the forward bridge? They kept the rear bridge untapped, to be tapped later for the chosen scope mount? Were the Pre War rifles all totally untapped in the beginning? When was tapping started on the forward bridge, if not from the beginning? When did the rear bridge start being tapped? I feel like I'm missing something, and this would be important to have straight.

Thanks

Cleanbore: Those "two holes on the side rear of the receiver" did "double duty" - they indeed did allow for mounting of a "receiver sight" (diopter???) and they also accommodated a scope base and ring set-up that many folks used at the time back then in connection with the front top receiver mounting holes for base/rings there.
I forget who made them but they seemed to work for there owners/users.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

So those 2 holes I have noticed on the front bridge have always been a factory addition on every M70, including the Pre-War ones? When(year, or better yet serial no.) did the rear bridge tapping become a factory addition? Was it 2 holes? Were there different serial ranges for different calibers to find either tapped or not? I can see this possibly getting complicated. What I see on the web, is most rears are tapped, which like I said is understandable. All of this info is interesting, but I'm probably more interested in how it pertains to the 375 H&H, than the smaller calibers.

Has anyone seen a "receiver sight" on a 375 H&H Magnum? or have a picture?

Sorry for so many questions

There’s literally Chapters written in books that address the questions you’re asking. Wouldn’t be a small task for someone to answer. Would suggest you obtain a copy of Roger Rules ‘Rifleman’s Rifle’ as it covers both the specifics and chronology of factory d&t receivers pretty thoroughly.

Pocono, would Whittaker's book maybe have more info regarding this?

Thanks Guys for your help. I intend on getting "Rule's" book. If anyone cares on answering my questions, it is appreciated. In my searches for these answers, I found very little info. I think others also looking for this information will appreciate these answers, and probably it will contribute to the collectibility of the Model 70, as the info on the web is confusing, and left me guessing. Any pictures of your rifles showing what to look for in originality is of high interest. I'm not asking for values, because that is always changing, and that info will not be current for long.

Thanks again

BSA,
Any and all resources that would help in answering the OP’s questions would be very helpful.

To the OP... read, study, understand what your interest and goals are, and finally get what you want for your needs.

Everything comes at a cost, even more significant when demand exceeds supply. Common sense applies at some level which is sometimes forgotten. For me, "museum pieces," rarer the better, appear to be the best monetary investments but require the greatest amount of initial "monetary investment", care, discipline, and protection. Satisfaction??? That is a tough one and a very personal thing. Once again does your satisfaction come from the simple beauty, practicality, and design of the "tool," or is it the art form that moves you. Maybe satisfaction comes from a return on your initial investment? Only you can decide!!!

For most of us it is probably a little bit of all of these. I speak for myself saying that I value the "hunt" as much as the "kill" any more when it comes to finding and acquiring them AND I generally enjoy a M70 more if I can use it in the field. The investment part is less important to me now mostly because I have found that selling "specimens" can be difficult even if I don't use them!!! Maybe better to not have "collectibles" in the first place for me? I do know that I very much enjoy helping others find what they are looking for.

Finally, mortality is finite and last time I checked, it my understanding is that we can't take M70s with us to the other side! Memories of experiences and feelings... maybe?

Great post^^

I appreciate your advice. I've been collecting firearms for quite awhile. Ideally you know what to look for, but things are seldom ideal. What I have found is, if I run across something that raises questions, I only have so long before the window closes to make the decision, it either closes, or you take a chance. Since you can never know enough, it's an ongoing education process. Even the author of "The Rifleman's Rifle" probably had a few thing incorrect in his book that are found out later.
My thoughts on collecting are that I look for what is correct before I'm concerned with condition. Other people are likely attracted to looks more than I. Bore condition is next, then overall stock, and metal finish. If the stock, or metal are refinished, that is a very big hit. Rifles that are drilled and tapped by the owner are not considered. These parameters come from my background in milsurp collecting. The purist in me is showing, but I hate it when someone looks down their nose at someone else's collection, and purists can be that way, I'm not like that in the least.
I'm not changing my focus from military rifle collecting, but I would like to find a quality sporting rifle made in the pre-war, 40's or 50's with a powerful chambering. The Model 70 Magnums fit that bill, particularly the 375 H&H because there were no military rifles made with that kind of energy.
What I have noticed before I started this thread was the difficulty in finding an original rifle. Determining what should be original is even the bigger problem.
I hope this thread continues, and it would be perfect if people would like to show off their rifles. What I said about modifications are the criteria I use in my military rifle collecting. That criteria isn't quite the same with civilian rifles because everything civilian is drilled and tapped for a scope these days. Even if the rifle was made before scopes were used for hunting, and the stock was built for iron sights, still few seem to have escaped that modification. I might have to live with that. I hope that doesn't discourage any owners from showing off their Magnums

Thanks

Have you checked gunsinternational???

I probably have, especially to see what the sellers say about what they are selling. Sometimes what you read about in a sale, may not necessarily be factual. I'm more interested in learning at this point than buying.

While I'm not a Model 70 collector or expert, the Roger Rule book has been very helpful over the years. I found my hard cover copy years ago at a consignment store in Stillwater, Minnesota.

Both hard and soft cover versions are widely available.

At the same consignment store, I found a hard cover original printing of Jim Carmichel's 'The Book Of The Rifle'. I never opened it...just paid the $8 and put both books in a bag. Later on the evening when looking through it, I discovered his autograph.

I'm not ever going to become a collector of Model 70's either. I probably will only end up with 2. I bought a early 70's M70 new in 22-250, and still have it. The Pre-64 375 Magnum is the only other one I want to add. To best fit in my collection it should be Pre-War, or one made post war in the 40's because they were so similar to the Pre War models.
Military surplus rifles had changes made to contracts, but generally they were not changed or updated with so many minor details as the M70 civilian rifles seem to have. An example is scope mounting. Military rifles didn't have scopes unless it was a rare sniper, so if a military rifle was tapped it generally isn't collectable. It's much harder to tell the drill and tapping timeline on a M70, but I think at least the rear bridge shouldn't be tapped before 1950. Unsure about the front bridge, especially on the very early ones.

There's a sign in one my local gun stores that says:

"The gun you thought about buying yesterday is the one someone else bought today."

There's a lot of truth to that.

OUCH! JUST BUY IT!

A local shooter has been "....researching" a specific gun he wants to buy and asked my help in finding it. Over the past year, I've steered him to three (3) very, very good rifles that were exactly what he supposedly wants.

They've all been sold.

He's still ".....researching."

Not surprisingly, it's a Winchester.

Sometimes sh*t happens. Last Friday, my dentist told me I have a little problem to the tune of $7229. I'm going to take advantage of my situation and do more "researching" on Pre-War, and Transition 375 Magnums. I will have one....."still researching" will not be on my tombstone!

Good man! -Al

I stated earlier I wasn't going to be a Model 70 collector. If I find a 375 magnum that I like I thought that would satisfy me, but after a bit of looking, the Pre War 30'06 that takes stripper clips looks just too cool to pass up. I can see a rabbit hole opening up if I'm not careful. Maybe just one more.

A rabbit hole will open up for sure. Especially if you have it in your mind that you want to find and buy a certain model. Within the last few months, there was a lot of talk about the 270's, so my interest was peaked. I was out and about doing my thing and ran across 2 rifles for damn good deals that I could not pass up. Not original condition collectors editions, but very good shooters. The one that I find pretty hard to find is the 270 featherweight, and that was one that I had found a couple weeks ago. At around 7 bones with a Leupold on top, there is no way I could have said no!!! The red pachmayr recoil pad should be here today, so I can get that rifle back to shooting condition. Been running across some great deals on old primed 270 win brass too. 60's and 70's W-W SUPER brass, talk about "going down a rabbit hole"!!!

However, your thread is about H&H magnums. I know where 2 magnums are, and they are at the same shop. 1 a 300WBY that was rechambered from H&H, and a mid 50's 375 H&H. The 300WBY has a Burris scope on top, and I can buy it for $1,000.00, and the 375H&H for $2,000.00. The 375 has been used hard. Probably in the 80% condition range.

That isn’t a terrible price at all for that rifle in nearly any usable condition…but if it is at 80% condition, I think our definition of ‘used hard’ differs.

It sure does. All of mine are pristine, except for the recent 270fwt buy. I use them, but do not abuse them. An 80% rifle is well used to me.

What I would be concerned with is originality, and when it's described as used hard, barrel condition would be suspect. When a rifle looks pristine, somebody is very likely taken good care of the barrel and storage conditions. Used hard could also mean it'd been hunted with often and taken care of afterwards. I haven't been after a M70 375 Mag for very long so I'm not very well versed in how this caliber gets used. It's not a deer rifle, so I'm guessing it can be found with light use easier than some. Possibly taken to Alaska once then stored.

Well said, “Satisfaction??? That is a tough one a very personal thing…”
My addiction started with a nice shooter .270 standard because it happened to be born the same year I was, that was 25 years ago and as many pre 64’s have come and gone

I agree... what makes you satisfied is going to be a personal thing. After you have collected something, and it doesn't have to be guns, you know what makes you happy, and what doesn't.
The cost also plays a good part in my satisfaction. The Pre-64 Model 70 is a quality production rifle, but I've noticed prices that are reflecting a work of art on some websites. Maybe they get it?

Over the last 50 years I've owned many pre'64 M/70's, only two were magnums. The first was a .300 H & H that I bought in the late 1970's for $400.00 OTD, never shot it except a few shots to check function. The next was a.338 Winchester Magnum which for many years was my elk rifle. The .338 was without question the most accurate M/70 that I've ever owned. It would put 275 gr. Speer bullet/IMR 4350 handloads into tight 3 shot cloverleaf groups @ 100 yds.

There are many different ideas behind collecting, but who is paying 16k for a pre64 M70? I'm not saying anyone is, but I see that as an asking price. Are they getting that from the guy that wants to brag about how much he paid? I'm more the guy who would like to brag on how little I paid.

No different than rare cars; just cheaper for the most part.

Those 16 K guns are incredibly rare birds. And if they are correct, and in good condition …

Rare doesn't always mean desirable, but those must be if they are pulling that money.

Reminds me of the late 60's Mopar with the Mod Top, or the Studebaker Lark wagon with the factory camper attachment, when you say rare cars.

Beauty (and value!) is in the eye of the beholder. I think that applies here... take for example the serial # 1 and 2 M70s (30-06) that are being offered up at ~2 mil $ for the set!!! Are they worth that??? Who knows. Not to me. Are they "special"? Yes! Will they ever be mine? No! Would I mind owning them? Duh!

Decide what your expendable $$$ is, what your interests are, make a list, prioritize, educate yourself so you don't pay more than you should (originality) and lay in wait, ready to strike when the "right" specimen saunters by!!! That is your safest path. Sometimes you just have to pull the trigger quicker than you might like BUT that might become your greatest purchase and a longstanding source of adrenaline!!!

There is more to some of these various recommendations than what is visible in "print."

Written in the clouds.

“Winchester Model 70 pre 64 in 375 H&H mag the rifle is 99.9 precent blueing and the wood original also included is the original box of shells and manual. Bought to go to Alaska but never made it.”

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/988385949

Obviously not Pre-war or Transitional but there is a nice "specimen" that should at least make your pupils dilate a little bit and get your heart rate up 10 or 20 bpm... if, that is, if you are "M70 alive!"

That's a sweet rifle AK. However, a real toss up for me. If one was to truly collect one, and not use it, a pre war or transition may be a better choice. If one were buying just to use in Africa or AK, you'd probably be better off with one like I saw the other day for $1,995.99 (basically $2,000.00). It was all original, but "used hard and put away wet".. Truth be told, I could probably get it for much less. The one in your link is a beauty, but if you screwed up and busted the stock, you might as well buy the one I saw for 1/2 the price. Just sayin..

That is a beauty! You can't blame the seller for wanting to get all he can for his rifle. It's what I was getting at before... the demand isn't too high at that price, or it would have sold already. Now would the same standard rifle built just a bit earlier with the cloverleaf tang command that price, or even be considered a deal?

I'm out of the market for awhile, but if something turns up that I consider a great deal I can't pass up, that could change. I hope there is enough money left to buy a blender, and a straw, if that happens.lol

It was just listed yesterday. That is the starting reserve for an auction, not a buy it now. I think if it were my listing, I would have done a true auction. We will know in a week if anyone wants it at that price.

For a true collector, Dave Morris currently has a supergrade listed on guns international for 25% more than the above, that is probably a better “value.”

My first two were magnums, a pair of aces in fact. The .300 is in nice shape and shoots good but in a later MC stock. I had no idea at the time. The .375 is in nice shape, has two filled holes in the receiver from a side mount. Was missing the folding leaf in the rear sight too. I found a folding leaf and put it in there until I can find something better. The .300 went to Africa; the .375 was going and didn't make it. Both of them were owned by one of my partners who died way too young. It was a good deal for me and a good deal for his wife.

The .375 above is a beauty and highly collectible rifle but wouldn't mean as much to me. The guns I bought wouldn't mean as much to you, either. And all of it is part of the fun.

All so true BK.

If I wanted one to hunt, I would find a 375 that had side holes and a cut stock and drop it into a brown and be done with it. But what fun would that be?

I know right! I have a couple of McM's I bought here, and sometimes I drop a barreled action into one of them from time to time when I take them out hunting. The .243 and the .308 I leave in their wood tho. I shouldn't take the .243 out but I do sometimes, if its a nice day.

I have only shot the .375 at the range, despite owning it for 15 years. Its a beast to carry. Has a Leupold 1-4x20 on it, looks perfect. I put a gloss Leupold 3-9x40 on it, looks like it belongs there.

The seller of the 375 (that never made it to Alaska), may not be far off in his pricing. I was just looking at completed sales from my watchlist and noticed this one that sold for the buy it now price over the weekend …

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/986561210

Gee I guess he isn't. I was thinking he was off by 800-1000. Wow.

It closed before without any bids. That is why I said, it would have already sold if it was a buy at that price. I don't know how many times it was re-listed. I'm not saying it won't ever sell at 4k. The other one that sold for 3375 was it up long? Some guns on GB just get re-listed over and over.

With what serial on the magnums did Winchester start drilling the rear bridge?

They were the latest of the transition guns to get drilled. Supposedly because there was not universal agreement on spacing for the mounts. Lou over on the Winchester collectors association forum has documented undrilled gun as late as 1950; rule also states that many H&H length actions were manufactured without holes late into 1950 (page 137). 121,500 was the approximate start of the type III (non cloverleaf) for the h&h; again per Rule.

They get re-listed until someone bids on them and buys them. The one for $4,000.00 is priced high. The reason it has not sold. As for when they were drilled and tapped on the rear bridge, depends entirely on the rifle. The H&H magnums were weird in that respect. You will find some that were produced in 1950, that may not have been d&t. There is one shown on page 133 of Rule's book. As he states, the H&H and "clip slot target rifles were the last to have the standardized pre-drilled holes". He also says that some only had 1 hole drilled in the rear bridge, "during the changeover". Just a FYI.

Debatable if guns with a single hole in the bridge were factory d&t

4k is a high price in my way of thinking. Even if a rifle has an actual value that high, the market is not that large, and it could take more time to sell in comparison to a lesser rifle priced at 2k. The investment aspect takes on a different buyer. A Super Grade being a higher end investment upside in any caliber.

Was there any distinction in the D&T timetable for magnums between Standard & Super Grade rifles?
In military rifle collection circles there are quite a few survey's conducted to confirm or not, whether established timelines, and serial #'s are correct lines in the sand that differentiate changes. These surveys are valued for firearms with much less values than the Pre-64 Model 70. I still don't have Roger Rule's book, but wonder lacking factory records how wise it is to rely on solely one publication, or older ones when we are dealing with the high dollars these rifles bring these days. I hope I didn't rub anyone the wrong way that feels like it's the bible.
Are there ongoing surveys being conducted? If there are it could weed out, or confirm some debatable issues like the single hole in the bridge issue.

I appreciate the info!

If you look up Louis Luttrell over on the Winchester collector website, he has been collecting this data for years. I have never seen it published collectively, but he puts out bits and pieces in various threads.

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/

According to Rule they were. Just about anything was possible during the transition years.

You are correct. I must’ve missed it the first time it went through. Looks like this is its second listing. It got listed after this one sold. He’s not too out of line on his price.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/977169626

Regarding the $3375 gun, it looks like first bid came in on May 11, and it sold on May 20 Buy it now - so nine days.

My best bet on finding one is probably an estate sale or auction not attached to the internet. I've been to some auctions that have both live and internet bidding, and almost everything goes to the online bidders. I'm looking everything over in person, and I can't bid what they do. There is often something not shown in the pictures very well.

Thanks, I'll check out that site, and look through some of Lewis Luttrell's posts.

Just don’t fall for this scammer. This is Dave Morris’s supergrade listed on guns international.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/988700877

This kind of problem is what makes people flock to dealers. It probably is a cause for higher prices, just for the security of the transaction. Gun Broker should be quicker to remove this. Thanks for the heads up.

I don't mind buying online. I have a C&R license, I've never been burned. You on the other hand might want to focus your attention on gunshows or finding out who's who in the 70 world and seeing if one of those guys would part with one. That's not my comfort zone but it might be yours. Put out some feelers, go to Tulsa or Cody, join the WACA, stuff like that. You might do real well. You won't find a bargain but you won't get burned badly either.

Gun Broker just sent me a message "Don't let these items get away" and it was promoting this scammer.

I have bought online, but not off Gun Broker. I prefer to buy locally where I can handle the gun, but Gun Shows in my area sell t-shirts, and jerky. They have become really disappointing.

Did Winchester ever D&T the rear bridge(barring a custom request) of the cloverleaf magnum receivers? Is the serial # known when magnum receivers were 1st D&T by Winchester on the rear bridge of either style receiver? I think the answers to these questions would be most helpful in determining originality, and I can't find this info on the web.

Thanks

Type 2 H&H Magnum transition receivers (cloverleaf tang and smooth bridge) were not routinely d&t at the factory. This continued well into Type 3 (oval tang and smooth bridge) production. The Jan 1950 Winchester catalog specifically stated that the bridge of 300 and 375 H&H Magnums were NOT d&t (the change did take place sometime later in 1950). As far as S/N’s, prior to S/N 139,000 most, if not all H&H receivers were NOT d&t. Between approx S/N 139,000 and 170,000 both drilled (presumably factory) and undrilled receivers can be found mixed together.
If one is concerned about ‘originality’ and wants a H&H with a factory d&t bridge it’s best to stick with guns made in 1951 or later. Anything earlier and the buyer should know what factory holes look and feel like.
Hope this helps.

Much better reply than my poor effort.

A big help! Thank You!

To account for the discrepancy with serial numbered receivers not assembled in an exact numerical order.... were the serial numbers assigned after the receivers were made, but before the rifle build was started? So that the rifle began it's assembly with the receiver already serialized? Is that known? That could help explain why some slightly earlier serialized magnum rifles have later features, and vise-a-versa, especially pertaining to the magnums which were made in far fewer numbers than the standard length calibers, but were still in the same serial # sequence as all calibers, making the number spread between magnum rifles off even farther.

To know that all regular production cloverleaf receivers were not D&T is very important when evaluating originality of those examples.

Do you mean people are actually looking for these old clubs?

I learned my mistakes the hard way on in person guns. Luckily not too hard though. I just started off by buying one posted pictures and got peoples feedback on here. First one 61 270fw didnt cost a lot and had several issues which I learned later but I still have it because it has real potential as a shooter. second one 243 fw also had some issues but sold it for what I paid for it no harm no foul. Bought a rule book and just looked at and handled as many as I could get my hands on. Third one 243 FW I bought still had an issue I didn’t see when I bought it a hairline crack in the stock. The next 3 I bought have all been amazing 270fw, 49 30-06 std and a 54 30-06 std. I will say once you have handled quite a few the nice ones just stand out.

I prefer those old clubs to anything new.

Here is what you are looking for in an H&H Transition model for a reference:

375 Magnum SN ~80k







In contrast, here is a very original Pre-War rifle, 30-06 in this case, but still useful to compare receivers, safety, etc.:







Note the lack of holes in the rear bridge of both rifles! "Original" and getting harder and harder to find. Keep looking and be ready when you find what you want.

Sorry for the dark pictures.

The photos are overly dark because you chose a very light background and did not compensate the exposure for it.

Nice transition.

Thanks for the pictures. Both rifles look very desirable.