Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Pre 64 Winchester Model 70 Magnums

I've collected quite a few milsurps, none of which has the power of a magnum. Was there a commercial bolt action rifle used for dangerous game before the Winchester Model 70? The H&H magnums were a caliber option in the Pre-War Model 70's and I expect many were chambered in the 300 & 375 Magnums, but don't know how many. I see more 300's for sale than 375's. I'm thinking of each, but mostly in keeping the 375 as a collectable. I doubt I would ever hunt with it. Probably a Pre war, or 1950 and earlier being the most collectable. Are there any records of how many Magnums were made Pre 1950? or Pre 64? Are there educated guesses in books, if not actual records?

Thanks

Yes, the main book we consult with is called "The Rifleman's Rifle", written by Roger Rule. This is a well known and trusted source that most of us have access to. According to Rule, here are the amount of H&H rifles made:

300H&H: "37,186" and a "% of Production" of "6.4"

375H&H: "14,005" and a "% of Production" of "2.41"

These numbers are not broken down to exact model type, like the Bull gun, Target model, or Super Grade. Just the amount of rifles made in these chamberings.

Thanks for that info! Does "The Rifleman's Rifle" book say anything about how many were built Pre-War, or any of the Transition examples? The 375 H&H Magnum probably didn't get as much demand as the 300 H&H, because dangerous game wasn't a concern in the lower 48. Recoil could have been a factor also. Was there a significant premium paid for a Magnum Pre-War? There seems to be one today, all things considered equal. I've been trying to do some internet research on the Early Model 70's, and there are a lot of bits and pieces to digest. I should get "Rules" book. Original rifles seem to be few, and figuring out what is original correct is important.

Thanks

Yes, originality is very important when placing a price tag on these rifles for sure. I'm not much help with the exact numbers of pre war H&H rifles produced. Someone here may have a better idea on value of the magnum pre war rifles too. For myself, I prefer the post war because they are drilled and tapped for scope use. The pre war is not going to be drilled and tapped:

Like this for an example. ^^^^ This is a transition model I bought a couple years ago. Paid $600 for it and it was all original, except for the rechambering to 375 WBY!!!!



I actually may have kept it, if it had been drilled and tapped for scope use. However, there are guys that search for 100% all original specimens to add to their collection. To get an idea on value, you can do a search on gunbroker for completed sales. I'll bet there will be very few though. You can also check gunsinternational and see if they have any rifles listed that match your criteria.

...Rule's book: Pages 98/99 Production of .300H&H and .375H&H

1936-1951: .300H&H=12,870
.375H&H=5,274

Interesting numbers to know! Thanks!

The rifle sure looks nice! Did you get a super deal, or did the re-chambering lower the value so much that the rifle was no longer collectable? If you made good money selling it that would indicate a higher more accurate worth point.

It seems gun values have softened some lately. Probably due to the economy, along with all the gun ban legislation threatened, and being enacted. I don't really know what to expect as far as where values are with original 1936-1951 M70 rifles, as well as the individual calibers like the 375 Magnum in particular. Also having something rare may not mean it's popular, which affects prices.

A lot of the rifles I see were drilled and tapped, which is understandable, as they were bought to be hunted with, and scopes have come a long way since 1951.
So the rear left of the receiver was tapped for a diopter, but what were the 2 holes for on the forward bridge? They kept the rear bridge untapped, to be tapped later for the chosen scope mount? Were the Pre War rifles all totally untapped in the beginning? When was tapping started on the forward bridge, if not from the beginning? When did the rear bridge start being tapped? I feel like I'm missing something, and this would be important to have straight.

Thanks

Cleanbore: Those "two holes on the side rear of the receiver" did "double duty" - they indeed did allow for mounting of a "receiver sight" (diopter???) and they also accommodated a scope base and ring set-up that many folks used at the time back then in connection with the front top receiver mounting holes for base/rings there.
I forget who made them but they seemed to work for there owners/users.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

So those 2 holes I have noticed on the front bridge have always been a factory addition on every M70, including the Pre-War ones? When(year, or better yet serial no.) did the rear bridge tapping become a factory addition? Was it 2 holes? Were there different serial ranges for different calibers to find either tapped or not? I can see this possibly getting complicated. What I see on the web, is most rears are tapped, which like I said is understandable. All of this info is interesting, but I'm probably more interested in how it pertains to the 375 H&H, than the smaller calibers.

Has anyone seen a "receiver sight" on a 375 H&H Magnum? or have a picture?

Sorry for so many questions

There’s literally Chapters written in books that address the questions you’re asking. Wouldn’t be a small task for someone to answer. Would suggest you obtain a copy of Roger Rules ‘Rifleman’s Rifle’ as it covers both the specifics and chronology of factory d&t receivers pretty thoroughly.

Pocono, would Whittaker's book maybe have more info regarding this?

Thanks Guys for your help. I intend on getting "Rule's" book. If anyone cares on answering my questions, it is appreciated. In my searches for these answers, I found very little info. I think others also looking for this information will appreciate these answers, and probably it will contribute to the collectibility of the Model 70, as the info on the web is confusing, and left me guessing. Any pictures of your rifles showing what to look for in originality is of high interest. I'm not asking for values, because that is always changing, and that info will not be current for long.

Thanks again

BSA,
Any and all resources that would help in answering the OP’s questions would be very helpful.

To the OP... read, study, understand what your interest and goals are, and finally get what you want for your needs.

Everything comes at a cost, even more significant when demand exceeds supply. Common sense applies at some level which is sometimes forgotten. For me, "museum pieces," rarer the better, appear to be the best monetary investments but require the greatest amount of initial "monetary investment", care, discipline, and protection. Satisfaction??? That is a tough one and a very personal thing. Once again does your satisfaction come from the simple beauty, practicality, and design of the "tool," or is it the art form that moves you. Maybe satisfaction comes from a return on your initial investment? Only you can decide!!!

For most of us it is probably a little bit of all of these. I speak for myself saying that I value the "hunt" as much as the "kill" any more when it comes to finding and acquiring them AND I generally enjoy a M70 more if I can use it in the field. The investment part is less important to me now mostly because I have found that selling "specimens" can be difficult even if I don't use them!!! Maybe better to not have "collectibles" in the first place for me? I do know that I very much enjoy helping others find what they are looking for.

Finally, mortality is finite and last time I checked, it my understanding is that we can't take M70s with us to the other side! Memories of experiences and feelings... maybe?

Great post^^

I appreciate your advice. I've been collecting firearms for quite awhile. Ideally you know what to look for, but things are seldom ideal. What I have found is, if I run across something that raises questions, I only have so long before the window closes to make the decision, it either closes, or you take a chance. Since you can never know enough, it's an ongoing education process. Even the author of "The Rifleman's Rifle" probably had a few thing incorrect in his book that are found out later.
My thoughts on collecting are that I look for what is correct before I'm concerned with condition. Other people are likely attracted to looks more than I. Bore condition is next, then overall stock, and metal finish. If the stock, or metal are refinished, that is a very big hit. Rifles that are drilled and tapped by the owner are not considered. These parameters come from my background in milsurp collecting. The purist in me is showing, but I hate it when someone looks down their nose at someone else's collection, and purists can be that way, I'm not like that in the least.
I'm not changing my focus from military rifle collecting, but I would like to find a quality sporting rifle made in the pre-war, 40's or 50's with a powerful chambering. The Model 70 Magnums fit that bill, particularly the 375 H&H because there were no military rifles made with that kind of energy.
What I have noticed before I started this thread was the difficulty in finding an original rifle. Determining what should be original is even the bigger problem.
I hope this thread continues, and it would be perfect if people would like to show off their rifles. What I said about modifications are the criteria I use in my military rifle collecting. That criteria isn't quite the same with civilian rifles because everything civilian is drilled and tapped for a scope these days. Even if the rifle was made before scopes were used for hunting, and the stock was built for iron sights, still few seem to have escaped that modification. I might have to live with that. I hope that doesn't discourage any owners from showing off their Magnums

Thanks

Have you checked gunsinternational???

I probably have, especially to see what the sellers say about what they are selling. Sometimes what you read about in a sale, may not necessarily be factual. I'm more interested in learning at this point than buying.

While I'm not a Model 70 collector or expert, the Roger Rule book has been very helpful over the years. I found my hard cover copy years ago at a consignment store in Stillwater, Minnesota.

Both hard and soft cover versions are widely available.

At the same consignment store, I found a hard cover original printing of Jim Carmichel's 'The Book Of The Rifle'. I never opened it...just paid the $8 and put both books in a bag. Later on the evening when looking through it, I discovered his autograph.

I'm not ever going to become a collector of Model 70's either. I probably will only end up with 2. I bought a early 70's M70 new in 22-250, and still have it. The Pre-64 375 Magnum is the only other one I want to add. To best fit in my collection it should be Pre-War, or one made post war in the 40's because they were so similar to the Pre War models.
Military surplus rifles had changes made to contracts, but generally they were not changed or updated with so many minor details as the M70 civilian rifles seem to have. An example is scope mounting. Military rifles didn't have scopes unless it was a rare sniper, so if a military rifle was tapped it generally isn't collectable. It's much harder to tell the drill and tapping timeline on a M70, but I think at least the rear bridge shouldn't be tapped before 1950. Unsure about the front bridge, especially on the very early ones.