Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles 45/70 Lead and speed?

The only lead I've ever loaded are some relatively mild loads for 38, 357, 44 spcl and 44 mag so I'm a newb when it comes to loading lead for a rifle.

A local bullet caster offers non gas checked 300 and a 405 grain RNFP 45/70 bullets with a BHN of 15. They offer gas checked 430 and 500 grain RNFP with a BHN of 22. I'm looking for two loads, 1 a mild load for volume shooting to 100 yards or so, that isn't hard on the shoulder and the second for a good deer load to maybe around 200 yards. What would you suggest?

Question two, what is the max velocity that each of the bullets could likely be pushed without leading the barrel?

Thanks.
Dave.

First question, what gun will you shoot them in? That'll determine if you can crank the velocity of a big cast bullet up into the range of velocities that'll require a gas check. 1895 Marlin or modern falling block single shot, or the equivalent? Or a Trapdoor Springfield or equivalent?

Were it me, I would opt for the 405 plain base bullet for deer under 200 yards. I would also plead with the guy to cast me a hat full a lot softer than 15bhn. 10-12bhn would be plenty hard enough for general utility work, while being soft enough to expand at leisurely .45-70 velocities. Load it to around 1300-1400 fps (so it stays super-sonic out to at least 200 yards, the trans-sonic shift will play hob with accuracy out there) and no gas check is needed, and trust me when I tell you that a 400gr. chunk of soft lead traveling that fast will dump a deer. Recoil will still be a tad stout, so for a practice/plinking load use the same bullet down to 1000-1100 fps and shoot it all day. If playing the long range target shooting game with a big BPCR rifle, then yes, heavier and/or more velocity is a bonus, but you don't mention doing that.

Those 430 & 500 grain gas checked ones cast hard as woodpecker lips may well be superfluous for you. Gas checks aren't strictly necessary until you get over 1600fps, give or take. 1600+fps with a 500 grain bullet requires two things: a stout rifle and ability of the shooter to take some punishment. Plus, at 22bhn no cast bullet is going to expand, especially at .45-70 velocities, but of course the shear mass of the bullet could preclude that need for expansion when hunting. The whole "hard cast" trend these days is perpetuated by newbies who don't know better, and suppliers willing to cater to that in order to make a buck. (Of course, there are exceptions but said exceptions lie in the province of specialization - mainly guys shooting these big boys at steel and paper way-to-hell-and-gone out there, and even then softer is more often better.)

Trail Boss and cast bullets make a great load in the 45-70. Recipes listed on hodgdonreloading.com. With powder drops running as low as 12 grains with a 405 and 14grains with the 300, it's economical, mild and fun.

Addendum: At the end of the day, bullet fit trumps bullet hardness in terms of leading and accuracy. Before buying your first bullet or buying a mold and a pile of lead, determine what the throat diameter of your rifle is and let that determine what diameter bullet you want. It's not rocket science - I could teach my Mom to do it and she's been gone for five years now. Lots of tutorials on the internet. A lot of newbies/casual shooters can't be bothered or are fearful of doing that simple task and trust gun makers and bullet makers to religiously adhere to standards which in many cases don't even exist.

Of course, trusting to luck and industry standards may well work out, but then again....

Adhering to or ignoring the simple protocols of determining proper cast lead bullet fit can cause a newbie to do one of two things: either curse the use of cast bullets the rest of his life to anybody willing to listen to him, or say "where have you been my whole life, you lovely thing you!"

Maybe so, but Trail Boss (if you can even find it these days) is about the worst "bang-for-the-buck" powder out there. At the risk of going down the "powder suitable for .45-70" rabbit hole, suffice to say there's lots of options.

My favorite powder in the 45-70 is IMR-4198. I'll second the 405gr lyman. Haven't tried alot of other options and don't think it's necessary.

gnoahhh, thanks, that is exactly the type of info I was looking for. I knew I had read somewhere, sometime, that around 1500 - 1600 fps was the thresh hold for needing a gas check but wasn't sure how much the BHN played into it.

The rifle is an 1895GS. I have wanted one for a long time and finally made it happen a few weeks ago. I have several powders on hand that are supposed to be good for the 45/70 and have already picked up a set of dies. Just need more brass and decide on a bullet or two to try.

Another question, if I cerro-safe the throat, how much difference should there be between that measurement and the bullet? Would that measurement be dependent on the bullets BHN?

Maybe I should have said another two questions.

Thanks.

Be sure to follow directions for Cerrosafe. The time wait after knocking the casting from the chamber is critical for an accurate measurement. I do a full chamber cast to include a bit of the bore. A little harder to knock out if a portion of the bore is included but it allows you to take a bunch of measurements in one swoop, including bore dimensions which will save having to slug the barrel too. In addition to diameters it'll show you how long the throat is also which will help when deciding on OAL.

Size your bullet to fit the throat, a half thousandth less in diameter is ok if you can manage it, wouldn't go much less if you can help it.

Marlin 1895 = helluva good .45-70 repeater IMO. Should take any sane .45-70 load you can throw at it. Mind you though, even though the gun should be able to take it you'll receive an immediate awakening if you touch off a 500 grainer at max velocity! Have fun!!

Thanks a million. I'm enjoying the rifle so far but haven't shot it much, maybe thirty rounds. It seems to be pretty accurate with the Winchester 300 JHP's. I have no doubts about a 500 grain slug moving fast would wake me up. Might be fun once in a while , but nothing I'd want much of.


Thanks.

When I was young and foolish (instead of old and foolish like I am now) I had a M1884 Springfield cavalry carbine. I paid $60 for it so that should tell you it was a long time ago! Among the crap I shot out of that gun was a fair amount of original 1880's-1890's government .45-70 ammo. 50 years ago the stuff was commonly found at shows for dirt cheap. The 405 grain carbine loads were stiff but ok, but lord-a-mighty the 500 grain infantry rifle loads in that carbine were real attention getters. Needless to say homebrewed loads centered around the 405gr. Lyman at sedate velocities, and I've relied on them ever since for my (sporadic) .45-70 use. That was the only gun I ever had stolen from me - God, I hate burglars.

Had a .45-70 High Wall once. That bugger could handle any load I could squeeze into it, but I still mostly shot that 405 Lyman with modest charges of Unique, 4198, and 4759.

28grs of sr4759 and a 405 is quite excellent from my 1895g. I shoot a lot of sr4759, imr4198 and HS-6 from my 45/70. Nothing really over 1600fps with 405’s as it gets unfun fast.


Speer and Hornady 300’s at 2000fps with 4198.


350 Hornady FN at 1922fps vs H4895.

When I had a Marlin .45-70, I liked to plink with a cast 405gr, non-gas check, and Accurate 5744. Look at the Hodgdon Load Data online.
A-5744 will get you everything you will want to handle in that Marlin.

I'll echo gnoahhh's comment about the 500gr + bullets over 1,200 fps. They WILL get your attention!

Ed

Yeah, attention to your wounds after the fact.