Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 257 Roberts +P vs Standard

I’ve not had very good experiences with Winchester M70’s accuracy. Only a sample of 3, never will be a sample of 4…

I use the same charge of Hunter over 100 TTSXs, but with Hornady brass, at 2950 fps. Accuracy is very good.

49.0 of Hunter at 3100 fps gives the same great accuracy, but I get an occasional flat primer, so I stick with the 47.0 charge.

This is out of a Montana.

That 47.0 charge actually exceeds the maximum listed by Hodgdon for +P .257 data by half a a grain. But the load was worked up at the Western Powders pressure lab in Miles City, Montana, before Hodgdon bought Western, using the 100-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, and pressure's listed at around 57,000 PSI. The grooves in the shank of 100-grain TTSXs probably reduce that a little bit.

Eileen has used the 47.0 grain load in her Ultra Light Arms Model 20 .257 for close to 20 years now. It gets 3150 fps from the 24" Douglas barrel, and has taken pronghorns, whitetails, mule deer and a cow elk.

I've had 2 M70 Winchesters. Not planning on a third for this same reason. Power to those with better success.

If you really want to know, weigh both and compare. Within normal reloaders' ability to measure, brass density is a constant so the weight will tell you the relative case volumes.

I have never pushed the .257 real hard deliberately but I have never downloaded it deliberately either. In my earliest years reloading I tried reworking loads for different .257 brass and different primers with the same powder charges and bullet and same COL. So far as needed to adjust loads <at all> for accuracy or pressure within the limits of my testing I never could see any difference between Remington standard brass and WW +P brass nor later could I tell WW +P from Nosler +P. In comparison of primers, in my particular rifles, there wasn't any difference in pressure that I could "see" but for accuracy, Federal 210M and Federal 215 (there was no 215M back then) gave significantly better accuracy than Federal 210 standard primers. I have no explanation but it was very consistent and repeatable. ... for whatever that's worth.

My pronghorn getter since forever is a Bob built around a M77 Mk I "tanger" action. Standard recipe is / was 110 gr. NAB in front of 45.5 gr. H4350 which always produced 2,984+ fps from its 24" barrel.

I'm about out of NABs with no plans to get more. I think now is the time to switch bullets and work up a replacement load. I'm thinking of switching to the 110 gr. ELD-X which I can easily get a pile of.

Anyone loading the 110 gr. ELD-X in their Bob? Even better - using H4350?

This thread has been incredibly informative and I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed useful information. I wish Ramshot was available in my area, but it seems the few local stores I visit it or call basically say,”What’s Ramshot?” I can’t see ordering enough of it online to make the hazmat upcharge worth my while, without first testing if it actually works any better in my firearm than what I have on hand.

The good news is I’ve gotten pretty consistent results with my 257 Rob Kimber Montana (22” bbl) and the 101 gr LRX. 46 grains of IMR4350 delivers good accuracy (3 into .75” or so at 100 yds) at around 2900-3000 fps with no signs of pressure. Upping the charge even slightly gives better velocity, but the groups open up. I’ve tried it in hot weather and cool weather, with fireformed brass and new brass, letting the barrel cool between shots or not. It’s always that 46 grain load and .75-.80” @100yds. The other powders I’ve tried, Reloder 19 and H4350, have not given the same accuracy.

I had hoped for a little more velocity just to distinguish this gun from my other .257 cal which is a Ruger M77 RSI in .250 Savage. That one puts the same bullet into slightly smaller groups at around 2800fps. It’s easy (for me) to overthink these things—either rifle will get the job done nicely at the distances I shoot.

Have found CONSIDERABLE difference in thickness/hardness of .257 brass over the decades. In fact the first Winchester +P cases were so much thicker than their standard brass that they blew primers using the same "++P" handload I was using back then in my Remington 722. But that was in the late 1980s.

Have also encountered more recent lots of Remington brass that wouldn't extract when using the same load, in older Remington brass, that we'd used for years in Eileen's NULA. Switched to new Winchester brass (not +P) and it extracted easily.

Right now am using Hornady brass, from fired +P factory ammo, which so far has been the most consistent and toughest .257 brass I've seen in a while. But that's also true of other Hornady brass I've used in other cartridges over the past several years.

Winchester has apparently been sub-contracting their brass production for a while now. There are several firms that specialize in this.

Might also mention that the difference between standard Federal 210 primers and 210Ms is the priming compound in 210Ms is more consistently spread, by workers who've proved that ability. Or at least that was true when I visited the Federal plant some years ago. It might seem weird that primer compound is spread by humans, not machines, but that's been the case in the primer factories I've visited.

A while back I was loading some 257R, 87g Speer HC with 35g H-4895. About 2800fps, just punching paper. Good accuracy, easy shooting.

That's a half grain short of a 250 Savage load, so I believe it was very easy shooting. I have a similar mild load using Varget in my 700 Classic 250 Savage. Fun shooting, low recoil/report, no fatigue.

for our 257 Roberts reloaded ammo to deer hunt this 2023 fall deer season we will be using 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets with Reloader 17 powder at 3100-3200 FPS. have got great accuracy and consistent groups, but have not killed any deer yet with this 75 gr. bullet .

Look forward to terminal performance with the Hammer.

I like what I saw with the 178 gr Shock Hammer out of a .358 Win on a WT chest. Core exit with 6 satellite exits, 360* around the core. Pretty impressive, quick kill.

DF

the 3 animals i shot with the Hammer Hunter last fall 2022 the 103 gr. 25 caliber out of my Weatherby mag did well so i expect the 75 gr. Hammer Hunter will do well too ?

I did. I blew up 2 of them .. 2 shots, 2 deer, under 2 minutes, both disintegrated completely within the chest cavity. Went through the hide ok, first ribs seemingly ok, but the off-side of the rib cage was peppered by shrapnel with no apparent coherent bullet chunk hitting the off-side ribs at all. A friend of mine reloads / reloaded commercially for a while. His customers reported similar problems but only with the .25 cal accubond, no other diameters. I suspect Nosler let a batch of bad ones through quality control. They might be ok now. The ones I had, though, were likely barely suitable for coyotes.

Anyway, all that gack aside, my accuracy came from RL22. I forget the charge, maybe 47 grains .. do NOT trust that, it's from probably faulty memory.

My old 1976 Ruger shoots the 100 gr TTSX or TSX to the same spot with 47.0 gr Hunter with LR primers in Rem or Fed cases. Just one of those loads that shoot predictably and haven’t dialed the scope in 10 years. Simply a case of “Don’t mess with Success”.

A few years ago I chrono'd a factory 257R Winchester RN 117 gr bullet out of a 22" barrel Ruger. Only shot 2 rounds thru the screen, but they went 2620 and 2634, pretty pathetic, but they did shoot accurate enough for a woods hunt in Upstate NY.

I went back east to hunt with an old HS buddy. I sat next to a huge maple tree on a stonewall fence. I heard a deer coming toward me just at day break. He stopped 15 yards from me. I shot him with that 117 grainer and it did exit. Easiest shot I've ever had on a deer.

Yaddio,

My paternal grandmother killed a pile of big game from pronghorns to elk with the original Winchester and Remington 117-grain RN factory load--which had the same 2650 fps MV--with the Remington 722 she was given by her second husband, who owned a hardware store in Denton, Montana. (My grandfather passed away during the Great Depression, and grandma waited almost 20 years before marrying again.)

She never handloaded, but did start shooting very early in life while growing up on a farm in southern Minnesota. After high school she homesteaded by herself in central Montana, and learned some stuff about shooting from Ed McGivern, the well-known author of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, who also lived in Lewistown then. In fact, she eventually became superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and believe or not had McGivern perform shooting demonstrations for the high school. My father witnessed at least one, which if I recall correctly took place on the HS football field.

But my main point is it ain't so much what you shoot 'em with, but where you shoot 'em. Oh, and she never used a scope-sighted rifle in her lifetime....

John,

You didn’t say as much, but it helps if you know how to hunt too! Your grandmother sounds like quite a lady.

I keep coming back to this thread.
Back in my younger days I had ‘favorite cartridges’ more so than now. I’ll blame it on bullets. I witnessed too many what I call bullets’ deficiencies. On smaller cartridges - smaller than .27 that is - bullets seem to not expand well or expand violently. That included 6mm, 25 caliber and 6.5 mm. If I wanted to shoot a bigger animal I went to a larger caliber. Eventually I acquired a 6.5, it was a 264 and in my opinion the screw machine partition was the one and only good bullet. Partitions were not available in smaller calibers. That was before or even during when a computer took a very large room and the closest thing to internet sales was Shotgun News. The local gun shops didn’t carry many different types of bullets. Norma bullets were not available where I shopped. Sierra bullets were available, but targets and varmints were their only game. I saw poorly performing 25 caliber bullets and the 6mm wasn’t any better. The Remington CL’s and the Winchester Silver tips were perhaps better than most. But even those bullets were only good in larger calibers. Actually, I don’t remember those bullets in less than 27 caliber. Sometimes, I’d try bullets when they came available, often to regret it. But perhaps the issue was I didn’t have a lot of loose change for testing bullets back then and all my bullet testing was on game.
The writers seem to be more concerned with waxing over cartridges more so than bullets. The JOC’s 270 vs everyone else’s 30-06 and then JC’s 280 - the ‘deer cartridges’.

Eventually, I found that a 03 Springfield with 180 grain CL’s to be 100% effective on whitetail and used that combination for quite a while. So it was my favorite.

The 25’s have progressed to be very good cartridges for most game animals - because of bullet technology. In my opinion, TTSX’s & Partitions are the top of the class. But Hornady Interlocks are good on deer and antelope too. I’m sure there’s others, but all this is my opinion based on my experience. (Edit, come to think of it, I bought a box of 257 loaded ammo in the 60’s that was Remington CL’s)

I suppose JB’s grandmother placed her 257 bullets carefully. My grand mother had a 25 Remington pump. My oldest aunt talked about her game animals were sometimes the family meals. I also heard she was very careful in placing the bullets precisely.

I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.

I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.