I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
I was more of an Elmer fan, myself. He went to the school of hard knocks. JOC seemed to have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth - at least that was my impression. Identifying with Elmer was much easier.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
Great story MD. Your Grandmother sounds like she had plenty of grit... and ate well too with that 257R.
That deer I shot was kinda special to me. I had been away in the Navy for many years, mostly on the west coast and overseas. Persian Gulf, etc.... Being with HS buds in the north woods that I had grown up in was very special. I was thrilled to be there smelling the Thanksgiving-like air and the chilly mornings, leaves falling. It was a giant plus to bag a buck with the 257R, something I had dreamt about while laying in my rack aboard ships for long periods.
Us hunters aboard ship really coalesced. Found each other, swapped stories, dreamt. We traded hunting magazines, eagerly anticipated packages stuffed with hunting books and magazines. My dad would tape hunting shows on DVD and send them to us. One time I was in port overseas with a hunting bud that I had in the past hunted chukars with quite intensely. We were in the United Arab Emirates walking thru an open air market and came across these stacked crates full of chukars. We were pleasantly dumbfounded seeing them.
i knew an old World WAR 2 that was a heck of a good old woodsman who trap ,fished and hunted a lot , this old Harold never had much money never was married but he enjoyed life more than most folks . 50 some years ago one day after a hot day at work i stop in at the local Tavern for a couple of cold tasty beers and stood next to old Harold ,we all were B.S.`n plenty and the stories started about deer hunting and what cartridge the guys used then old Harold pulled out a 257 Roberts cartridge all was quiet for a moment . everyone knew old Harold was a great woodsman and one heck of a big buck slayer not one person argued about the cartridge Harold shot deer ,wolves ,bears ,coyotes with the 257 Roberts. i almost forgot this part with my grandparents , father in law and great uncles being soldiers in world war 2 and the Korean war all`s i ever heard was 30-06 for deer some a 30-30 so when old Harold showed me that 257 Roberts i was really puzzled ,but now looking back old Harold had a great old cartridge i now really like and have a 1/2 dozen or more rifles that use this fine cartridge for the family to use now ,the ladies and grandkids like the 257 Roberts because of the low recoil and myself too.
My paternal grandmother killed a pile of big game from pronghorns to elk with the original Winchester and Remington 117-grain RN factory load--which had the same 2650 fps MV--with the Remington 722 she was given by her second husband, who owned a hardware store in Denton, Montana. (My grandfather passed away during the Great Depression, and grandma waited almost 20 years before marrying again.)
She never handloaded, but did start shooting very early in life while growing up on a farm in southern Minnesota. After high school she homesteaded by herself in central Montana, and learned some stuff about shooting from Ed McGivern, the well-known author of Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, who also lived in Lewistown then. In fact, she eventually became superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and believe or not had McGivern perform shooting demonstrations for the high school. My father witnessed at least one, which if I recall correctly took place on the HS football field.
But my main point is it ain't so much what you shoot 'em with, but where you shoot 'em. Oh, and she never used a scope-sighted rifle in her lifetime....
As the ranch rifles were being swapped out from .30-30's to mostly pump-action .30-06's (post WWII), and Tasco 4x scopes started showing up My Aunt on the adjoining ranch led the way by putting one on her 722 Bob. When she demonstrated they wouldn't break then the ranch rifles started wearing those scopes too. And those rifles got seriously bumped around in the ranch trucks.
But the ammo never changed - Silvertip and Core-Lokt factory ammo.
It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
Originally Posted by T_O_M
Originally Posted by Bugger
I’m thinking the if Elmer was growing up in Idaho today he wouldn’t feel the need for the big heavy bullets.
I think it would depend on the presence of a JOC to piss him off. Not sure myself whether he believed everything he wrote or if two guys verbally jousting didn't play as much of a roll in their preferences as the actual practical differences did.
I think that the JOC, champion of higher velocity, verses EK, champion of heavier, larger bore, bullets is an illustration of different people who grew up in different places, under different circumstances, and had different experiences developed different perspective on what worked best FOR THEM. I never felt that JOC pushed his higher velocity agenda quite to the degree that EK push his agenda. I will say for the record that JOC was my preferred gun writer from circa 1964 until he passed even though his deer hunting experience in the contiguous 48 was all west of the Mississippi River and I grew up in NH.
I was more of an Elmer fan, myself. He went to the school of hard knocks. JOC seemed to have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth - at least that was my impression. Identifying with Elmer was much easier.
You might want to read O'Connor's 1969 book Horse and Buggy West, A Boyhood on the Last Frontier, an autobiography of his life growing up in Arizona--which was not nearly as "silver spoon" as you think. His mother and father got divorced when he was very young, but they did eventually move in with an attorney uncle, who apparently did pretty well. But O'Connor did not exactly grow up in the lap of luxury, and like many people had a hard time making ends meet for his wife Eleanor and their kids during the Great Depression. He was a teacher at a small college--which didn't pay very well, which is why he started writing for various magazines. The family hunted considerably, partly because the meat was also economically useful.
Can't remember where I got my used copy, but it's signed by O'Connor. "Reading" copies can be found on the Internet for around $50, though of course "collectible" copies sometimes go for $200 or more.
John
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Agreed, H&BW is a great read and, for a JOC fan, a must read to better understand the events that shaped the man. I didn't know what had happened to his son, Jerry, until I read H&BW, I just knew that JOC continued to write about his other son, Bradford, but Jerry just disappeared.
Age wise, JOC, who was born in 1902, and EK, who was born in 1899, were about as contemporary as they could have been, having grown up and lived through the same eras of World events. I kind of think of young JOC as more of a suburban kid and young EK as a rural ranch kid, each of them shaped by their different environments.
Agreed, H&BW is a great read and, for a JOC fan, a must read to better understand the events that shaped the man. I didn't know what had happened to his son, Jerry, until I read H&BW, I just knew that JOC continued to write about his other son, Bradford, but Jerry just disappeared.
Age wise, JOC, who was born in 1902, and EK, who was born in 1899, were about as contemporary as they could have been, having grown up and lived through the same eras of World events. I kind of think of young JOC as more of a suburban kid and young EK as a rural ranch kid, each of them shaped by their different environments.
Elmer wasn't educated and Jack was
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Agreed, H&BW is a great read and, for a JOC fan, a must read to better understand the events that shaped the man. I didn't know what had happened to his son, Jerry, until I read H&BW, I just knew that JOC continued to write about his other son, Bradford, but Jerry just disappeared.
Age wise, JOC, who was born in 1902, and EK, who was born in 1899, were about as contemporary as they could have been, having grown up and lived through the same eras of World events. I kind of think of young JOC as more of a suburban kid and young EK as a rural ranch kid, each of them shaped by their different environments.
Elmer wasn't educated and Jack was
True, but getting an education is often a choice in addition to being a circumstance and not having a formal education was not as much of an impediment to achievement then as it can be now.
According to H&BW, JOC's maternal Grandfather was quite affluent, but his affluence doesn't seem to have been shared with JOC's Mother to any great degree. JOC's Father doesn't seem to have been much of a presence in or influence on his life.
Yep, which is why I periodically reread books by both of 'em--especially Hell, I was There! and Horse and Buggy West.
Hell, I Was There! is the reason that I look closely at every 1st Model Newton that I come across, hoping to find EK's 256 Newton. EK felt that the 256 Newton was too light for hunting game, even though it is, performance wise, about identical to the currently very popular 6.5 Creedmoor.
I always thought that their differences of opinion were more based on the conditions they hunted than anything else. Elmer where he hunted mostly dark timber and Jack in the way more open Arizona desert and high country. All this brought to mind of a commercial many years ago when about the only form of cable TV was HBO. We had that for a few years then all of a sudden HBO said screw you and shut everyone down in Tucson. However, that commercial was only seen a few times on HBO. What was shown was shaky film of people rafting down some river and later a camp In that camp was this dude with a big old cowboy hat chopping firewood. About the third time I saw it I realized that, Hey! that's Elmer chopping that wood. The whole scene was short, maybe 20 to 30 seconds at best so there must have been a documentary or something made of Keith's rafting experience. I would very much like finding a copy of that entire film. The picture of Keith's rafting are in Hell, I Was There and have to have come from that movie/documentary. PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
As a youngster, I loved to read both Elmer and JOC articles. They were both showmen to an extent, entertainers who loved what they did and knew how to tell their stories. It makes me wonder how much of the "angst" they generated, one against the other, wasn't part of their act. Ole Charlie Askins was a master at that. It seemed to sell a lot of copy, which was the bottom line, the game they knew well and played with great skill.
And, we were entertained, still here talking about them after they have left the scene.
That's in itself an achievement, a testament to one's existence and time spent here on this planet.
May they rest in peace as we continue to enjoy the fruit of their labor.
for our 257 Roberts reloaded ammo to deer hunt this 2023 fall deer season we will be using 75 gr. Hammer Hunter bullets with Reloader 17 powder at 3100-3200 FPS. have got great accuracy and consistent groups, but have not killed any deer yet with this 75 gr. bullet .
Look forward to terminal performance with the Hammer.
I like what I saw with the 178 gr Shock Hammer out of a .358 Win on a WT chest. Core exit with 6 satellite exits, 360* around the core. Pretty impressive, quick kill.
DF
the 3 animals i shot with the Hammer Hunter last fall 2022 the 103 gr. 25 caliber out of my Weatherby mag did well so i expect the 75 gr. Hammer Hunter will do well too ?
Here's another interesting bullet, the Lehigh 160 gr. Extreme Chaos. Bill Wilson bought Lehigh, moved the plant to E. TX where his ranch is and where he hunts hogs. Quite a story.
Here's a YouTube piece on this bullet out of a .308 at modest velocity.
Does anyone have original source writing on the 257 Roberts from Ned? I’ve never come across his writing. I am assuming that was part of how the cartridge got out into the public? I have heard the story of it being slightly modified by the folks at Remington to bring it out commercially. Curious what the writers of the time had to say when it was first a wildcat. It is interesting how the bullet improvements have added to the legitimacy of the smaller rounds even in the eyes of some who were not interested from past experience.
I used to only shoot shotguns and rimfires, then I made the mistake of getting a subscription to handloader.......
Does anyone have original source writing on the 257 Roberts from Ned? I’ve never come across his writing. I am assuming that was part of how the cartridge got out into the public? I have heard the story of it being slightly modified by the folks at Remington to bring it out commercially. Curious what the writers of the time had to say when it was first a wildcat. It is interesting how the bullet improvements have added to the legitimacy of the smaller rounds even in the eyes of some who were not interested from past experience.
