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Hello all, recently had a search done by Cody on a Savage Model 1917 pistol, it came back with:

Serial number: 22xxxB
Type: Pistol
T and P
Date accepted: August 13, 1920
Date shipped: February 28, 1922
Sold to: Butler Brothers

It sat around a long time, it is in super nice shape, my question is what is 'T and P'? The Jessica at Cody didn't know what it stands for, but has seen it in several ledgers for pistols, not on all of them, though...also, I just noticed that it doesn't specify caliber, (which is .380), Do the pistol ledgers specify caliber or not? Second one I've had done (1907 model search didn't show caliber either and was also a .380). Any info on the caliber question and meaning of the abreviation of 'T and P' would be appreciated, thanks

Good questions.
We'll need someone like savage1907 to chime in. Maybe he knows.

The format of the ledger entries may have changed over the years.
Not sure why the caliber is not noted. Maybe pistols were recorded in blocks where the caliber was noted on a previous page. ??
In this example we see the "P". Pistol, Portugal, I don't know.
The description of the pistols that did not go to Portugal is different than the ones that did.

A ledger mystery..... guesses??

There are entries on pistols for NP, which stands for Nickel Plated.

There are entries for just "P", which also shows up in the Savage 1899 / 99 ledgers and others.

I think a "P" entry just means it was proof fired, but I have no evidence for this. P starts showing up in the early 1910's, is on practically every line by 1920, and then disappears from ledgers by 1922. The SP stamp on Savage 99 barrels starts end of 1920, so shortly before the P in the ledgers disappears.

If both T and P are there, they may be related like the NP entries are. Or it may be just the common P entry plus a T. And I don't know what a T might be. Any special feature on the pistol?

I do not see any special features that I'm aware of...looks to be all original, case colored trigger and magazine release, blued remainder, except barrel obviously. Was this date interval a long time before being sent out? I know sometimes there is some time between accepted and shipped, but nearly 1 1/2 years seems pretty long, thoughts on that aspect as well, would be appreciated. Thanks

I have a 1917 Savage but mine is a 32 short. Don't use it much as it throws the MTY's away and pretty hard to find them. Had to go look when the OP said the cartridge wasn't written on it. Yea, neither is mine! Have the factory box around here for it somewhere and think it's written on that.Handy little gun to shoot but need to shoot it at a big barn! I've had it apart a few times and as I recall there are no screws inside it! never seen a handgun like that before.

I believe the 32 caliber and 380 caliber pistols were recorded in separate books. Since they were separate, they didn't need to write the caliber on each line. With different serial number sequences, it'd be normal for them to be logged separately.

But if it's logged in a distinct 32 or 380 book.. Cody should put that on the search/letter.

Cody needs improvement in this area!

Caliber should be included for goodness sake. They were on JTC & Clark letters.
A "T", "P" included is meaningless and provides more questions than answers.
This is an example where a pic of the ledger entry should be included so the rest of us have a chance to figure out what T or P is if Cody isn't willing to do it. Maybe the T or P was misread, poor penmanship entry, etc. No one would know from a form letter.
Where's Calahan when you need him?

Cody lists the serial numbers for the .380's separate from the other two calibers - SerialNumberRangesALL.pdf // ...so is it a block of numbers set aside in the same book? or a separate book? Do the numbers mix or get duplicated?

So, I talked to Jessica at Cody again, she informed me that the ledgers are seperate for the rare .45 and .32/.380...the .380 variant is designated by serial number with the suffix 'B' (sometimes a prefix 'B')...i have the original box serial numbered to to pistol and on the top of the box appears an ink stamp with what looks like 'T&P' see attached pic (hopefully), upper left..So, I would think there is some meaning to the designation of 'T and P' which is just eluding us 103 years later!

I'm not 100% positive.. but from the information I have, the 32's were designated as being in specific books.

The 32's were already up to serial number 80,000 or so when the first 380's came out at serial number 2000. It's not reasonable to think they just squeezed the 380's into ledger books they'd filled up 3 years earlier. And they wouldn't have entered them into the 32 books out of serial number order.

At most I'd think they maybe blocked the back of a 32 caliber book off for 380's to keep them separate, but more likely they just used a different book.

That T&P stamp on the box is interesting!

Can you post up a picture of the gun? Or gun in the box?

Here's a pic of the pistol and the box

I don't see anything on the gun or in the catalog that is an obvious correlation to "T" or "T&P".

Maybe Savage1907 will know something.

And now I'm going to have to letter mine..

"Date accepted: August 13, 1920
Date shipped: February 28, 1922"

Sales dropped off from 1921 onward.

Good catch, I missed that.

Factory pretty much shut down in fall of 1920, didn't restart until almost summer of 1921. They laid off huge numbers of employees and pretty much shuttered the plant. Massive depression hit the country, huge unemployment everywhere. Jan. 1921 annual meeting announcement said that Savage was selling lots of stuff at cost just to raise $$, they closed and sold off everything at the Sharon, PA plant and others.

So very few sales from late 1920 through 1921.

So that pause is normal, yes.

That would make sense, thanks for the iinfo on that portion of my query.

So, another Savage semi auto pistol I had searched recently, is a Model 1907, late version, Serial # 15xxxB, a .380 also,
Cody search shows this...

Type: Pistol
P
Spur
Date accepted: January 20, 1920
Date shipped: January 21, 1921
Sold to: Supple, Biddle Hardware Company

Just for interest, this one also, sat around a year, almost to the day. Still not sure what 'P' is. But, I believe 'Spur' refers to the "hammer" style. (I know it's not a true hammer, more of a cocking lever)

Could “P” stand for police?

No, there's far, far too many ledger entries with P.

By 1920 it's almost every single entry.

From Cody, I think I only see 6 lines without a P on the left here (and some might just be offscreen to the left).

Been busy off-forum for a bit.

The Savage ledgers for .32 and .380 are separate book systems. Cody staff call the .380s the "B Book". If your Cody serial check or letter does not specify the serial number with B Prefix or Suffix, be sure they did not send you .32 data. If your .380 had neither B prefix or suffix, you will almost undoubtedly get .32 data but the dates will be obvious. I think I have them straightened out on the early ones. They are getting the hang of it.

T&P is believed to be Tested & Proofed or Tested & Proof-marked, I know of at least one fully written entry as "Tested & Proofed" . Often the pistol is stamped on the slide with "SAP-in-Oval". It usually seems to occur with guns going out of the country. Though oddly, the John Rollins exports do not, perhaps because England had its own test and proof system?

Bailey had #43616 at RIA earlier this year. Ledger showed Tested & Proofed, slide stamped SAP. I see over a dozen just glancing at ledgers in my database, on M1907s, M1915s and M1917s. I have a M1917 stamped SAP and ledger marked T&P.

Will look back through old correspondence with Clark, but do believe the P stood for Proofed at least as far as a QC/function test. In looking though ledgers, P seems to have begun occasionally in 1913 and 1914, with T&P appearing occasionally. By Jan 1915 and onset of Contract pistols P was a routine marking. Stern discusses "Tested & Proof-marked" on French Contract #80247 made in 1912 and shipped 3 years later in 1915, page 90. Perhaps coincidental, ledgers have many returned pistols in 1912. Savage recognizing they needed to proof other than on request?

Flipping through the ledgers, the French November 18 1914 shipment has no P indications. Later 1915 French shipments show what seems to be periodic Ps, almost as if they were checking a percentage of the shipments. Later by 1916 French and Portuguese shipments almost 100$ indicate a P.

Interesting sidenote. The French Nov 18 1914 shows a ledger page scattered with 10 entries Originally marked "Spur", but scratched through. The spur was special order then and required beveling the breechbolt. They were removed?