Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing This stock finish is gonna kill me- frustrated at process

I've been slow in working on my project :Mauser for my son

I'm working on the stock, or should I say re-working on the stock. If I'm honest I'm re-re-working on it. The finish is giving me fits.
What I've done so far:
Art (sitka) was kind enough to converse with me via messages here and over the phone. I had decided to use his stock finish method with epoxy. I got the stock shaped and sanded then heated in an oven and then applied West Systems epoxy with a slow cure hardener. After it cured I went back and made sure all the metal fit again. At that point I started working on the metal finish and fitting safeties and the like.
At some point, based on Art's suggestion, I started adding Tru Oil as a top coat finish on the stock. I'm going for the custom oil finish look on the nicer custom rifles. Starting with an epoxy base I knew I didn't have any pores to fill. BUT, the finish started looking like it had pores. I assumed that more layers of the oil would fill that in and level out. About 10 coats in and it didn't. I said to myself "well, it's because it's a gloss finish that makes it show up and stand out. Knock it back with fine abrasive and it will look perfect."
I was wrong.
I went over the stock with a very fine micro mesh pad and the little 'pores' stood out brightly with their high shine. OK say's I, let's wet sand this back a lil and build up again. I didn't cut all the way through the Tru Oil but I cut 'into it' if that makes sense. I went back over it with Tru Oil a few more coats. Now, I have some spots that look flat no matter how many coats of Tru Oil i put on it. It goes on wet but when it 'dries' it's flat in a couple spots. It looks for all the world like putting straight oil on bare wood and those small spots soak it in completely and the surrounding area has a wet residue on it.

I've decided I don't like Tru Oil. Not only because of the problem's I'm having, but also because I don't like the shine and I don't want to have to go back and cut it back to get the oil look I want.

So, trying to think through this I've decided that the finish or smoothness of the epoxy prior to adding an oil top coat may be the issue. Looking back I can't say I did my best to get it smooth from the start. I think I remember it being a little imperfect and me thinking that oil is supposed to fill and level out so...... To that end I've wet sanded all the way back to the epoxy, making sure there are no pores left, no unevenness, no dips no nothing. I've got it as close to smooth as glass as i think i can get it.

My question now is what to go back with as a top coat. I'm thinking maybe make a spar varnish/tung oil mix. I'm really just here to express my frustration.

Those "pores" are air bubbles from the epoxy still trying to cure out. Skip the epoxy.

Straight TruOil (with bone black and burnt umber pigments added for aging effect)



Same stock, same TruOil knocked back with 3M 000 synthetic steel wool and waxed with Renaissance Wax for the "oiled look".

Well, the epoxy is in it, so no skipping it. The epoxy is the finish and sealer so I'm not looking for anything other than a top coat to make it look like an oil finish. Just trying to figure out the easiest way to get there from here.

I would suggest another epoxy coat. The epoxy must be level (perfect) or the very thin oil will not look uniform. I suspect you had multiple spots where the epoxy was sanded through.

As to Tru-Oil... all oils produce a gloss finish until they add stuff the oil cures around which mattes the surface.

Sorry, I disagree completely on the notion of air bubbles in the epoxy curing out. Open pored walnut sometimes needs a second coat to fill all of the pores.

Very nice work on your part!

Thanks for the compliment.

It's called "out gassing" and I suspect the epoxy wasn't fully done out gassing before the TruOil was applied. His "pores" or bubbles, were in the TruOil the way I read it.

He should also be wary of the same problem applying another coat of epoxy if that's the fix he chooses.

Well, when I wet sanded the epoxy the wet slurry was white. Didn't look like wood at all Doesn't mean it wasn't, just saying. Since I've wet sanded again, looks like I'm back to where I started.

Nah, Art's right. I suspect the OP didn't have the epoxy applied right (sometimes - usually - multiple coats with blocking between coats is necessary). I mostly do the same thing but with spar varnish. The trick is to take the varnish/epoxy right back down to bare wood leaving the pores filled to the surface over the entire surface. Dammed tedious to get it right, everywhere on the object, but necessary if an oil finish is in store.

(I dislike filling pores with the oil finish itself as I got tired of having the stuff shrink back into the pores over time. Disheartening to pick up a gun you did 10 years ago and seeing pores almost as bad as before starting. And yes, I'm patient enough to let finishes cure before doing successive coats.) On top of that, I more often than not anymore just keep going with the varnish by blocking out each successive coat with 320-400x until I achieve universally filled flat pores, usually six coats with open-pored black walnut, let cure thoroughly, then apply four more coats, rub out, wax, done. Sounds like a thick wad of varnish but after blocking between coats and final rubout the mil thickness is such that it looks like an oil finish - yet provides infinitely better barrier protection against water fenestration.

Epoxy in such thin small quantities won't leave bubbles like that, and if it does then subsequent coats will fix it.

Where I differ with Art is in warming the stock before applying epoxy. Heat can induce some odd drying/curing characteristics in epoxy including but not limited to bubbles. Having worked as a yacht carpenter in a wooden boat shop where we went through multiple 50 gallon drums of the stuff quite rapidly for a myriad of applications taught me more than I care to know about the stuff. Worked around it so much that I developed an allergy that only recently went away.

It is normal to have a white powdery "dust" when sanding epoxy that is fully cured. If you don't get the white dust you know it isn't fully cured. I agree with Art, you may need to add at least one more coat to make sure you have the wood completely sealed and covered, wait for it to cure completely (probably a day or two, depending on which catalyst you used with the West Systems Epoxy), and then carefully wet sand it down smooth with wet/dry paper in a very fine grit.

I've put Truoil over epoxy for repairs on a couple epoxy sprayed stocks I have and it always worked perfectly after some smoothing of the epoxy repair with wet/dry paper in 1000/2000 grit. It will take quite a few coats before you have a completely level surface with Tru oil at times, depending on your application technique. I still use the "one drop on the finger" technique rubbed in to a small area and overlap areas as I go until I finish the stock, then do another coat as soon as the previous coat is dry enough to take more Truoil without damage or scratching the surface- which is often a couple hours to a day or more. I've been taught that Truoil needs to have a chemical bond for successive coats to combine into a cohesive finish coat and if it dries too hard between coats this is impossible to accomplish. Once you get the complete coverage you need or want, it will be glossy but let it cure for at least 30 days until it is fully cured and hard, then take a fine 3M pad to it or very fine wet/dry paper with water and carefully smooth out any orange peel you still have on the stock until the entire finish looks dull. Then bring up the polish with very fine automotive polish, or stock rubbing compound, or rottenstone- depending on the finish you want to achieve.

The biggest and most valuable ingredient in doing this is patience. I miss this part often and always have to pay for it...

Bob

I dislike completely filling pores on walnut and like some open grain to show. It's more "old school" looking and much easier to repair if buggered up in the woods. Never wanted to hunt with a stock I was too afraid to risk a little bump or scrape. Wax is plenty to weather proof a stock anywhere I've ever hunted. If I ever hunt in a rain forest, which I highly doubt, I'll be toting a synthetic stock anyway. I don't know about this oil over epoxy thing. Sounds like a solution in search of a problem, but that's just me.

Some filled, some open. Hit 'er with a couple three coats of axe wax or renaissance wax and go hunt.

I've stuck with oil and typically get about 15 to 18 coats applied before the finish begins to display some depth. Five or six drops suffices for a complete application. I also hand rub each until nearly dry and wait three to five days between layers. Pores typically fill at about a dozen layers. Never found a truly lent free rag, so I've never done a wet application that one wipes down to remove excesses. If sanding shows gum on the paper, then the finish has not cured. Patience is the secret.

I once quizzed Shiloh as I wanted to add some depth to one of their finishes. They initially wet sand with tung oil to fill pores. Their upper end wood though is extremely dense, highly figured, and shows very little pore to begin with. A process I've not tried yet.

Epoxy seals wood better than everything else, except CA glue, which is equal. Oil finished wood takes in water vapor faster than bare wood.

The idea behind oil over epoxy is getting the wood sealed with epoxy and then getting an oil finish on top which increases depth, makes repairs easy, and looks like plain oil.

My experience shows greater depth of penetration with heated wood. My big concern with heating the wood is strength losses. But with it in the wood it is significantly stronger/harder. In general I agree it is a mistake to get it hot.

Yeah, I know what your theory is Art, just not something I would need to worry about enough to go through all that bother. It can rain here for a week straight, flood all the creeks and hollers, drag metric tons of people's [bleep] down the river, and a day later you'd swear it never happened. Getting a gun wet isn't something to fret over. Wax is more than most here even bother with.

Depending on how much time your rifles spend exposed to sunlight or strong ambient light, a finish that has good UV protection properties is a good idea. Wax and epoxy don't fit that desciption. Truoil, Varnish, Lacquers, and Shellac do have good UV protection if applied correctly.... Not sure if Urethanes have UV protectants to be honest... but they can make a great sealer.

Can you tell me where you get the pigments? I lime the effect you achieved. I use tru oil because I know what to expect. I have tried other finishes and go back to tried and tru oil ( lol)
I usually do a lemon oil rub prior to using tru oil. Its my stain if you will. Makes the grain pop.
My Dad once put so many coats of tru oul on a model 12 stock it looked like a epoxy finish. I prefer some grain to show.

You can order actual "bone black" from the Jim Kibbler website, probably other traditional muzzleloader supply sites as well. I use oil painting pigments and they can be found on Amazon. It's my understanding that a true oil paint is a high grade of boiled linseed oil with dry pigment added by the painter to adjust colors. TruOil is mainly linseed oil with driers added. It works great with color pigments.

I mainly use the deep black pigment and "burnt umber" to get the aged look I like on maple stocks. I apply them to areas that would get the most "handling" and dirt/grime over the course of time.

The stain under it all is a couple treatments of aqua fortis on the maple. On walnut stocks I like to stain them first with minwax red oak stain. It seems to even out the colors of natural walnut very well in a shade of color that I like.

With the pigments It would be best to experiment on something other than a prized gun stock first.

Don't try to do it all in one coat. If you need more or deeper color keep adding coats of shaded TruOil until you reach the right tone and "depth". Knock each coat back a little with 000 synthetic steel wool and apply the next coat thin enough to not run, but still "wet" and glossy. Allow to dry well and repeat. You can do the shaded areas and then work un-tinted TruOil up to the borders of the color while wet if you like, but I tend to build up the colors first then work on the plain areas. Once you've got the colors established the way you want them you can then go to straight TruOil over the entire piece and rub it out "dry" to the sheen you want the way it's intended to be used as your top coats.

Lemon oil before applying finish? Lemon oil is basically mineral oil with mineral spirits added, and a touch of chemically reproduced lemon scent. Mineral oil isn't a hardening oil and as such I wouldn't think of applying it under a finish (or on top of one either). Mineral oil is a petroleum byproduct and we know how incompatible petroleum products are with wood. Lemon oil is the darling of housewives, maids, and lazy folks who are happy with a temporary shine on their credenzas and coffee tables and who don't care that in the long run they're probably doing more harm than good. (Look at something like that which has had a couple decades of religiously applied lemon oil and get back to me about the admirable kind-of sticky surface.) Should be more properly labeled "Snake Oil".

TruOil is nothing more nor less than a wiping varnish. A hardening oil (be it linseed or tung, doesn't matter and they're used interchangeably in the industry) with a percentage of varnish mixed in, plus a touch of solvent and drier. Exact ratios are a proprietary secret, but trust me when I say you can make your own custom blend of oil + varnish, and add a drop of drier if you want to speed the finishing process up a bit - and have something as good (and likely better) than TruOil. TruOil is omnipresent on the pegboards of half the gun shops in America, which makes it legit in the minds of a lot of folks. Kinda like saying Coke is the best drink in America because it's in every supermarket, 7-11, and fast food joint....

+1

I Think that is exactly what I'm going to do. I have some pure Tung oil, and some Spar varnish. I think I'll make small bit and give it a try. I believe I've read about adding more oil to the mix after the first couple coats.
The Tru Oil i used was very thick and tacky, and the finished product was very glossy. I'm looking for more of the soft satin or eggshell finish of oil. I have read that the more oil in the mix the more satin the finish. Hope that is correct.