I buy into your post 100%. I would add one more piece of wood to this fire. A few years ago, I got interested in something a poster here suggested concerning true hunting rifles only. 1 cold barrel shot a day for a week or two...just to see what your rifle can do in a real world cold barrel shot found in hunting. It's a real eye opener, rifles that I considered, yawn ho-hum accuracy in prolonged bench sessions...in some cases turned out to be...old reliable.
I can understand the premise of once load development has finished, but I don’t understand the logic of it for load development to which the OP’s question was about. So as to throw another piece of wood, if on day one you have a clean cold barrel then days 2-5 or 10 would also have to have a clean cold barrel for any said test to be valid. That sounds like barrel break in, shoot one, clean, wait 24 hours and start over. Will also add that I have never taken a clean barrel out on opening morning.
I can understand the premise of once load development has finished, but I don’t understand the logic of it for load development to which the OP’s question was about. So as to throw another piece of wood, if on day one you have a clean cold barrel then days 2-5 or 10 would also have to have a clean cold barrel for any said test to be valid. That sounds like barrel break in, shoot one, clean, wait 24 hours and start over. Will also add that I have never taken a clean barrel out on opening morning.
Here are 2 examples. I hunt with a Win94 carbine in 32WSP. Here is a target from 4 3-shot strings on a cold, but fouled barrel. Where I hunt, getting off 3 shots is about the limit.
The first 3 shot string printed at 7/8". Happy me? No, it's luck, sort of like flipping 3 heads in a row.
By time the 4th string (12 shots total), the group opened up 3 7/8", which is more indicative of the gun.
I shoot a .223 varmint gun in 200 yd matches with a 20 shot course of fire. The gun has produced numerous 3 shot groups at 5/16" at 100. Happy me? No, they're just statistical noise.
A 20 shot group at 200 yds shot at match pace produces a 2 1/8" group.
So, my deer gun and load will hold 4 MOA over 12 shots. My target gun and load will hold a bit over 1 MOA over 20 shots.
IMO, claims about a guns accuracy based on less than 20 shots don't tell us much of anything.
I no longer "work up" loads. I only test bullet and powder combinations at the lowest velocity needed for the job.
I do most of my shooting at 200 yards. I spent my whole life at 100 to check loads and group sizes and two years ago I said goodbye to 100 yards. My plan is to spend a good amount of time at 200 and then I will go to 300. I’m not anti 100 yard but if you try to exclusively shoot at 200 and beyond, you will be in for a shock. You may shoot a good 3,4, or 5 shot group at that distance, but try a 10 round group and see what it does when being just as careful with heat, form, wind and all of the other things we do to make small groups.
In a year from now, I plan a 100 yard secession with my rifles and see if I have improvement there from my time spent at longer ranges. I hope I kill it at 100. That’s the idea I have anyway.
I buy into your post 100%. I would add one more piece of wood to this fire. A few years ago, I got interested in something a poster here suggested concerning true hunting rifles only. 1 cold barrel shot a day for a week or two...just to see what your rifle can do in a real world cold barrel shot found in hunting. It's a real eye opener, rifles that I considered, yawn ho-hum accuracy in prolonged bench sessions...in some cases turned out to be...old reliable.
I can understand the premise of once load development has finished, but I don’t understand the logic of it for load development to which the OP’s question was about. So as to throw another piece of wood, if on day one you have a clean cold barrel then days 2-5 or 10 would also have to have a clean cold barrel for any said test to be valid. That sounds like barrel break in, shoot one, clean, wait 24 hours and start over. Will also add that I have never taken a clean barrel out on opening morning.
That would be counter productive. My favorite, most dependable hunting rifle always threw the first shot from a clean bore, the second was a little better. I always shot three after cleaning the bore, before a hunting trip, and before checking zero.
I had a range just off the front deck for thirty years. It is still there, I just have to drive seven miles now to use it, and it was 132 yds. So I go to a formal range these days. But, back in the day, I did the one shot a day for a few days with a couple or three rifles..
Grab the rifle, take one shot into a target each cool, clear morning before the morning breeze starts. Sometimes you get very comforting news. Sometimes it is more like WTF.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
I was introduced to a rifle builder/gunsmith Alex Wheeler who explained about bumping shoulders. For awhile l was convinced that .002 was the way to go. Inconsistent groups. One trip after fouling, it was there, the magic group, but there after not. Then l followed the advice of Wheeler, stripped bolt, ejector, extractor and firing pin assembly. .004 bump with bolt drop on its own. Bullet centers the throat, no influence from case. Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sub MOA 200.
I was introduced to a rifle builder/gunsmith Alex Wheeler who explained about bumping shoulders. For awhile l was convinced that .002 was the way to go. Inconsistent groups. One trip after fouling, it was there, the magic group, but there after not. Then l followed the advice of Wheeler, stripped bolt, ejector, extractor and firing pin assembly. .004 bump with bolt drop on its own. Bullet centers the throat, no influence from case. Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sun MOA 200.
What, exactly, in the context of good/bad group size, is the relationship between a fouled bore and bumping shoulders?
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
From there I'm gunning come-up's,to establish DOPE and never not close to the platform's Transonic Slip. After that,I'll cycle through the erector and bang schit as per whim. Such things are warm/fuzzy. Hint.
I've never shot 3x at a Critter,nor 5x,10x or 20x. Shot my 6PPC yesterday in nice conditions,at 650,500,400 and 200 1x,for the warm/fuzzy. A bit of wind,so I was dealing and sliding the horizontal etching. Hint.
Pardon wares that actually exist,as you CLUELESS Fhuqktards Pretend aloud. Hint............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Grease on tracks.... hmm let me think on that. Just did... It improved my groups and that is all that matters to me. You can disagree, IDGAS. How's that for recalculating? Or researching ?
Um, seriously?
I'm just trying to get a solid handle on what you got going there, chief.
We might save this "fruitless" thread afterall.
What barrel did you make that discovery with, that you need to bump four thousandths to get a fouled barrel to shoot 1/2" at 100?
My premium hand lapped barrels from Kreiger, Hawk Hill, and a 5R from Bartlein unfortunately don't foul much at all. I might get 200 sometimes even 300 rounds on it before groups OPEN UP TO 1/2" at 100, and I feel compelled to strip copper.
But, I only partially FL size in a bushing die and am only bumping shoulders .001" from a fired case. Other precision rifle series competitors that I've compared notes with over the years have found the same thing regarding fouling, shoulder bump, group size, and needing to clean.
Wondering if I should bump shoulders more to get them to foul more often? Because fouling, as you say, is a "definite"?
Or, somedamnthing.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
I buy into your post 100%. I would add one more piece of wood to this fire. A few years ago, I got interested in something a poster here suggested concerning true hunting rifles only. 1 cold barrel shot a day for a week or two...just to see what your rifle can do in a real world cold barrel shot found in hunting. It's a real eye opener, rifles that I considered, yawn ho-hum accuracy in prolonged bench sessions...in some cases turned out to be...old reliable.
I can understand the premise of once load development has finished, but I don’t understand the logic of it for load development to which the OP’s question was about. So as to throw another piece of wood, if on day one you have a clean cold barrel then days 2-5 or 10 would also have to have a clean cold barrel for any said test to be valid. That sounds like barrel break in, shoot one, clean, wait 24 hours and start over. Will also add that I have never taken a clean barrel out on opening morning.
This is worth considering
Quote
I can understand the premise of once load development has finished, but I don’t understand the logic of it for load development to which the OP’s question was about.
And this is even more worth considering
Quote
Will also add that I have never taken a clean barrel out on opening morning.
oopsy you missed your life description...... sure the wife and sons would agree unless they're just like you.
overwhelming have different priorities cause too much drama have trouble listening just rude, most of the time come across as fake overshare too soon dominate conversations far too pushy don’t respect people’s boundaries You always want to be right
I was introduced to a rifle builder/gunsmith Alex Wheeler who explained about bumping shoulders. For awhile l was convinced that .002 was the way to go. Inconsistent groups. One trip after fouling, it was there, the magic group, but there after not. Then l followed the advice of Wheeler, stripped bolt, ejector, extractor and firing pin assembly. .004 bump with bolt drop on its own. Bullet centers the throat, no influence from case. Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sun MOA 200.
Tell us the relationship between fouled bores and bumping shoulders to gain more accuracy.
Don't make us guess at what's in your head.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
