Fouling is a definite Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sub MOA 200.
3 shot groups don't tell us anything.
What was the aggregate group size taken over you last 6 to 8 3-shot strings (for a total around 20)?
Better yet, what is the mean distance of your impacts from the calculated group center?
They don't tell me anything that you want me to know, instead tell me that even at extended ranges, 200 300 and 400, they will still flatten deer for me and have. Give it up fellas. At 300 yds, where I aim is where that bullet went in, and that's all that matters to me AND I don't give a sh it about your statistical, cerebral, over analyzing analysis either. Anything else ?
I was introduced to a rifle builder/gunsmith Alex Wheeler who explained about bumping shoulders. For awhile l was convinced that .002 was the way to go. Inconsistent groups. One trip after fouling, it was there, the magic group, but there after not. Then l followed the advice of Wheeler, stripped bolt, ejector, extractor and firing pin assembly. .004 bump with bolt drop on its own. Bullet centers the throat, no influence from case. Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sun MOA 200.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
I buy into your post 100%. I would add one more piece of wood to this fire. A few years ago, I got interested in something a poster here suggested concerning true hunting rifles only. 1 cold barrel shot a day for a week or two...just to see what your rifle can do in a real world cold barrel shot found in hunting. It's a real eye opener, rifles that I considered, yawn ho-hum accuracy in prolonged bench sessions...in some cases turned out to be...old reliable.
I can understand the premise of once load development has finished, but I don’t understand the logic of it for load development to which the OP’s question was about. So as to throw another piece of wood, if on day one you have a clean cold barrel then days 2-5 or 10 would also have to have a clean cold barrel for any said test to be valid. That sounds like barrel break in, shoot one, clean, wait 24 hours and start over. Will also add that I have never taken a clean barrel out on opening morning.
Yeah, I got sidetracked from load development, guilty yer honor. Actually, you added the word "clean". I'm likely dead wrong, but I pretty much ignore bore cleaning now since component supply has gotten so bad, round count annually is way down, so all my hunting rifles are fouled all the time to varying degrees. Like you, I hunt fouled rifles. Until I see actual copper 'shredding' with a lighted magnifier, I just let it go. I'm not a precision shooter anyway, when I measure a group it's generally with the mini scale on a pocket multi tool, lol. 1/8" increments is goodenuff.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
I was introduced to a rifle builder/gunsmith Alex Wheeler who explained about bumping shoulders. For awhile l was convinced that .002 was the way to go. Inconsistent groups. One trip after fouling, it was there, the magic group, but there after not. Then l followed the advice of Wheeler, stripped bolt, ejector, extractor and firing pin assembly. .004 bump with bolt drop on its own. Bullet centers the throat, no influence from case. Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sun MOA 200.
nobody else is asking for a further explanation but the boy in a mans body who is nothing but a vindictive SOB. Make sense ? Hope that helps.
I was introduced to a rifle builder/gunsmith Alex Wheeler who explained about bumping shoulders. For awhile l was convinced that .002 was the way to go. Inconsistent groups. One trip after fouling, it was there, the magic group, but there after not. Then l followed the advice of Wheeler, stripped bolt, ejector, extractor and firing pin assembly. .004 bump with bolt drop on its own. Bullet centers the throat, no influence from case. Last three trips consistent 3 shot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. Sun MOA 200.
nobody else is asking for a further explanation.
Even you know you stepped in it this time.
2800 plus views on this thread I'd say a few or two are just sitting back and patiently waiting to be endowed with your infinite wisdom.
Or laughing like hell at you deflecting and avoiding, and deflecting and avoiding, and deflecting and avoiding again.
Just a note, this was a legitimate thread that deserved some discussion, until you shi t all over it.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
You're seeing statistical noise. Like ghosts in fog bank.
You might search for the Hornady Podcast episode "Your groups are too small".
They ran a bunch of experiments with groups up to 500 rounds. Short summary.
- Group sizes generally don't get bigger after 50 shots but may not be entirely circular.
- Groups are usually circular by 100 rounds.
- The data suggests you need groups of 35 to predict which load is better (statistical significance).
- Groups of 20 are usually predictive but not always.
- Generally speaking, stick powders are usually more accurate than ball powders.
- Different barrels like different bullets and different powder.
- GROUP SIZE (dispersion) INCREASES WITH VELOCITY!! THEY COULD NOT FIND "VELOCITY NODES" OR "ACCURACY NODES" WITH GROUPS OF 35 OR MORE SHOTS.
-Bottom line, for hunting, pick a bullet type and stick powder with a good reputation for the cartridge. Select the slowest safe load that will deliver the bullet at your target distance at a speed sufficient for terminal performance (eg, 1800 fps for many traditional cup and core bullets). Shoot 20 (or more) shots in a manner that replicated your use. For hunting with a light barrel, 7 or 8 3-shot strings on thr same target allowing the barrel to cool, will give you 21-24 shot replicating a common hunting scenario. If the result is sufficiently good, don't keep looking for something better. If it's not, try a different powder or a different bullet.
Like many people here, I've stared at 3 shot groups like a medium reading tea leaves. In a former life, I taught stats and am convinced the Hornady approach is sound.
I no longer chase accuracy nodes and simply load for just enough velocity.
I listened to the podcast a couple of times then went out and tried this with my Model 70 Classic 30-06. The barrel has been lapped and it has been bedded into a Bansner stock. Scope was a Nightforce SHV 3-10 set to 10x, and I made two each 20-shot groups at 100 yards using Norma 150-grain Whitetail ammo. I used a sandbag front rest and no rear rest.
I was somewhat sloppy with my hold, so the extreme spread for the first three shots in the first group was about 1.5 MOA. Two more did not expand the ES but landed within the spread of the first three. The second five-shot string didn’t increase ES, but clustered together near the first shot. The third and fourth strings gradually opened up the group, with the final ES being 2.209 MOA. Mean radius for this group was 0.655 MOA.
I was more careful with hold on the second group. The first three shots were nearly touching. Two more opened the ES to about 0.75 MOA. The second five-shot string opened the ES to about 1 MOA. That’s 10 in 1 MOA, which was the gold standard for Townsend Whelen back when he said that only accurate rifles are interesting. The third string opened up ES to about 1.5 MOA. All five shots in the fourth string hit to the left of the group and increased ES to 2.326 MOA. I take the rap for that: I had just fired 40 rounds of 30-06 through a sporter-weight rifle from the bench and I could tell that my hold was loosening up again. Mean radius for this group was 0.658 MOA.
Then I chronographed 10 rounds with my MagnetoSpeed chronograph. I had been using 2,749 fps as a working figure based on checking just three rounds. But 10 shots averaged 2,818 fps with an extreme spread of 58 and a standard deviation of 18, so that’s probably closer to the truth.
What did I learn? • This rifle may be better than I thought, but I need to shoot more groups with at least 10 shots to really understand what I’m seeing. • I need to improve my bench technique, and should look at using a rear bag for this kind of work. • A different type of target might help make groups smaller. • 40 rounds of 30-06 in one day is probably too much. • If I’ve been thinking that this load did 2,749 fps from this rifle when it’s really closer to 2,818 fps, what else have I been getting wrong?
Okie John
Originally Posted by Brad
If Montana had a standing army, a 270 Win with Federal Blue Box 130's would be the standard issue.
Okie John, how different were the atmospherics from the 2749 velocity to the 2818 velocity. In the big picture that's not very much if there was a decent shift in temps, humidity, etc.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
Then I chronographed 10 rounds with my MagnetoSpeed chronograph. I had been using 2,749 fps as a working figure based on checking just three rounds. But 10 shots averaged 2,818 fps with an extreme spread of 58 and a standard deviation of 18, so that’s probably closer to the truth.
What did I learn? • This rifle may be better than I thought, but I need to shoot more groups with at least 10 shots to really understand what I’m seeing. • I need to improve my bench technique, and should look at using a rear bag for this kind of work. • A different type of target might help make groups smaller. • 40 rounds of 30-06 in one day is probably too much. • If I’ve been thinking that this load did 2,749 fps from this rifle when it’s really closer to 2,818 fps, what else have I been getting wrong?
Okie John
You found the fallacy of 3 shot groups for anything, you need at least 3 groups of 10 to get a true picture of ES/SD. If you take and throw out the high and low of the 10 shot group as random then a better picture will emerge.
Rear bag will definitely help stabilize the hold which in theory will bring down group size. Maybe.
Average velocity will definitely change somewhat day to day depending on overall conditions.
Different targets may help with target picture but with bad bench technique and no wind indicators it is doubtful.
