Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles .17 Mach 4 Bullets

Apparently my .17 Mach 4 doesn't like HDY .17 cal, 25 gr V-Max bullets! I have tried loading them with W-748, H335 & H4198 powders with H335 having the best group (1.5"@ 200yd). This rifle with 25 gr Berger or Starke bullets in front of W-748 powder shoots groups @ 200 yds that can be covered with a dime!! I have RL-7, BL-C2, IMR 8208 BTX, and Varget powders that I haven't tried and I DO NOT HAVE IMR 4198, H322, Vv130 or AA2400 as I am out and they are unavailable. I'm using a seating of 1.770" and Rem 7.5 and Fed 205M primers.
Before I continue to burn up more powder and waste more primers maybe one of you can suggest a fix, as I believe these bullets will perform with the right combo. Thanks in advance.

For several years 335 was the powder for a MIV. But that stuff was a bit temperature sensitive in hot weather. Then I tried AA2230 and that was it. Best accuracy and 3900 with 23gr Hammett.. Rem. 7-1/2 primers.

My Cooper .17 MACH IV never liked 25 gr V-Max bullets either....probably to do with the twist rate vs the longer V-Max (higher BC) bullet?

About the same response for 40 gr V-Max .20 caliber bullets in my Cooper .204 Ruger....doesn't shoot them well vs lighter bullets.

I couldn't get the 25Vmax to shoot in a 9 twist (which is the correct twist barrel). The 25 HP's shot well. I then rebarreled with a Pac-Nor 9 twist and it then shot the 25 VMax's extremely accurately... like 5 shots in .2 inches. Fouling was also greatly reduced.

Typically the 17 Mach 4 was barreled with a 10 twist barrel. If that is your situation, 25 grain V-max length, bullets are not likely to do well in such a barrel with any recipe. 20 grain v-max is likely to show improved results.

FLPanhandle: YOU.... answered your own question!
The wonderful 25 grain Berger bullets have shot exceptionally well and performed exceptionally well, FROM DAY ONE, in my Custom Shilen barreled 17 MachIV.
Trade off those Hornady bullets and get more Bergers.
And as for powders YOU touched on that again, yourself - go with the W 748.
It's what I settled on and accuracy is wonderful in my rig.
Good luck and long live the 17 MachIV (and its twin the 17 Remington Fireball).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hunterapp: I beg to differ with you!
Back in July of 1995 I had a full custom Varmint Rifle built on a Remington 700 action.
The Rifle was built by Riflesmith and optics genius Wally Siebert and he recommended the 1 in 10" twist Shilen heavy, long (26 1/2") barrel for my cache of Berger 25 grain bullets. The Rifle was carefully constructed with a Jewell trigger, Holland recoil lug and fitted (bedded) into a McMillan "Marksman" stock. The Rifle weighs 11 pounds 4 ounces and is VERY capable of what I consider to be superb accuracy.
Using the 25 grain Bergers for quite some time now in Colony Varmint fields I have taken Varmints out to just past 500 yards with this set-up.
Typically before I go Prairie Dog Hunting every year I verify sightin. I will relay to you the last 4 (four) sight in verification groups I have made with this Rifle in four different years.
Those groups (5 shots at 100 yards!) in those four different years measured .264", .339", .322" and .262" respectively and as noted in my reloading log.
And NONE of those groups are near the best load testing and sight-in verification groups I have made with this Rifle and 25 grain bullets - they are just the LAST four groupings.
I doubt there is much if any "length" differential between the 25 grain V-Max bullets and the 25 grain Bergers.
Anyway the 25 grain Bergers and the 1 in 10" twist Shilen barrel have worked wonderfully well for me.
Other "25 grain" bullets I tried back when this 1 in 10" twisted Rifle was new were the Remington 25 grain Power-Lokt hollow-points and the Hornady 25 grain Spire Points - both of these bullets shot quite well but NOT as well as the 25 grain Bergers.
YMMV
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: I forgot to mention I have a Leupold 6.5x20 variable scope on this Varminter.

The 25 gr 17 cal vmax is .671 and Berger 25 is .565 quite a bit different. I suspect its just like some 12 twists in 20 cals that won't shoot some 40 gr and some will.

Sherm61: How much "bearing surface" of these bullets differs?
I assume the VERY lightweight "plastic tip" of the V-Max makes up most of that difference you posted NOT the bearing surface of the bullet.
Again... if you or anyone else thinks the 25 grain bullets can't/won't shoot accurately in a 1 in 10" twist barrel then you are incorrect - my extensive experience has proven that.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

BC of the Hornady 25 gr V-Max is listed as .230. BC of the Berger 25 gr flat base Varmint is listed at .152. That is a very large difference between the two, and possibly the cause of accuracy issues with the V-max in certain rifles under certain conditions (elevation, temperature, etc).

I did not say they won't shoot in your gun. I said its quite possible could be like 20 cal 12 twists with 40's some will some wont. Berger doesn't even put the dimensions on there website.

FLpanhandle if you run the JBM twist calculator with the 25 vmax taking into your sea level and the horny tip at 3700fps comes out to 1.16 SG theres your problem
2 biggest difference between you and Varmentguy is bullet length and he's probably at 3000' elevation.
If you run the 25 Berger through the Berger twist calculator at 3000' comes out to 1.41 SG with that SG bullets will shoot, I do it all the time

Sherm61: I did NOT understand much of your posting - but I do wish to add this.
When I had my Rifle in 17 MachIV made I was living in the Puget Sound Country and my range then was at 19" (nineteen feet!) above sea level. It shot those various 25 grain bullets VERY well at that altitude. Then 25 years ago I moved to an elevation of 5,400' (five thousand four hundred feet) above sea level and my range I use is at 6,009" (six thousand and nine feet) above sea level and I do most of my Colony Varmint Hunting between 3,500' (three thousand five hundred feet) above sea level to 7,000' (seven thousand feet) above sea level - I notice NO difference in accuracy or performance at any of those elevations (sea level to 7,000').
Again I must ask is it your contention/experience that 25 grain bullets in a 1 in 10" twist barrel can't/shouldn't be accurate?
I will add this I was so thrilled with the performance of my custom Rifle in 17 MachIV that years later (2,007) when the folks at Remington decided to offer the 17 Remington Fireball (the 17 MachIV's factory twin) in their Remington 700 Varminter line I bought one and vois la this factory Rifle (Remington 700 VSF) shoots the same Berger 25 grain bullets amazingly well - I do NOT know the twist rate of this factory Rifle but will try and look it up for your perusal/consideration.
And when that 17 Remington Fireball Rifle came out I wanted to use factory headstamped brass exclusively in that factory 17 Remington Fireball Rifle.
The ONLY brass available then was in the form of factory ammunition and it was only offered in the 20 grain Accu-Tip ammo. My factory Rifle shot the factory 20 grain Accu-Tips very nearly as well as my handloads using the 25 grain Bergers.
Anyone know right off hand what the twist rate was/is in those Remington 700 17 Remington Fireball Rifles?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The only .17 cal bullet that I use is the 25 grain VMAX. All the others, such as the 25 grain Bergers have crap b.c.'s. Way too much wind-drift and they start to drop like bricks. Really need a 30 grain with a b.c. above .270 for the longer shots.

Looks like Sherm largely answered the issue at hand in that the difference between the 25 GR V-max & the 25 gr Berger is significant to the tune of 18 to 19% depends if you wish to round down or up. Altitude can factor in here as well.


17 FB generally should handle the 25 gr V-max quite well with its 1 in 9 twist. Bullet weight is much less, a factor in stabilization than over all length. If the 25 grain V-max is 18% longer than the 25 grain Berger, then a realized difference in stabilization under marginal conditions may be expected.

Doubt many factory barrels will hold a candle in the accuracy department with your custom rifle with the 25 gr Bergers. Though I expect the 25 gr V-max will shoot better in a good 1 in 9 twist 17 Rem, 17 FB or even a 17 hornet. Barrel twist & bullet length can be a finicky thing.

FLPanhandle: I have been using VV N133 for quite some time in my 1/9" Lilja barrel (just in case it is available).

I suspect that this is the issue, long bullet twist.

Mine shoots 20 grain VMax very well.

Wild assed guess is you have a 1-10" twist. 1-9" seems better for that 25 grain VMAX bullet because of its length. Those bullets that are shooting better do so because they are shorter and stabilize adequately in the slower twist.

I have not owned a .17 Mach IV but I had its ballistic twin, the .17 Rem Fireball, with a 1-9" twist. My load was Remington brass, Rem 7-1/2 primers, 20 grains of H335, and the 20 grain VMAX. It was good for 3/8 inch at 100 yards for 5 shots, repeatable, and after about 100 rounds, the factory (700 SPS sporter) barrel stopped copper fouling. I reckon I'd still have it if a local cop hadn't offered me considerably more for it than I had invested in the gun, brass, and dies. It was a ton of fun .. head shooting ground squirrels without losing them in the sight picture.

For 20’s and 25’s I like benchmark and n133. N133 is a bit more speed, benchmark I think might be a bit more consistent. Xterm isn’t the worst either for ball powder