|
|
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649 |
I'm scratching my head here.
I was running 180gr TTSX with TAC. They've gotten nearly impossible to come by so I've switched to 178gr Hammers.
Reworked a load and went clear upto 53gr. 52.5 and 53gr gave me 2600 and 2609 respectively. Ran 2 shots of each and both had an ES of 1 (small sample but for a quick hunting load it's all I need right now)
The rifle is a Kimber Montana JES rebore.
Brass is Lapua 308 (bought it to go eith the rifle then decided to make it a 358win and figured I'd use the brass)
Primers are CCI Laege rifle magnums.
Anything over 51gr is definitely compressed. 50 is close. 53 had powder half way up the neck.
I'm just wondering why mine runs so much slower than guys report...I know 2600 will do anything I need it to.
The 180gr TTSX ran slower at 2550 or so.
Not sure if it's the Lapua brass or what.
Any thoughts or other powders to try? Or other explanations of the slower speeds I'm getting.
I'll run this for the season. But honestly not sure I love TAC anyways. Seems awful sooty to me. Bore looks like my Flintlock after a little shooting (a bit of an exaggeration) also not sure how much higher I wanna go due to recoil in such a light rifle.
Not worried about it at the end of the day. But also confused at the same time. Guys report 2750-2800 with around 52gr. I'm 200fps shy for some reason.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,396
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,396 |
How many rounds thru the barrel since the rebore? Maybe it hasn't sped up yet? I remember reading somewhere that the Hammers are so slippery that it may be necessary to go to a quicker powder. TAC seems a bit on the slow side for lighter bullets in the 358. AA2015 & IMR3031 work very well in my 358 with c&c 200s & both are a few steps quicker than TAC. RL7 & RL10X were looking good too, but are unobtanium right now. N130 or N133 may be good too & they are available. A quick series with N133 & 200s was promising but never finalized. Dont think I've tried any lighter bullets than the 200s yet. From the Hammer site... "A reputable ammunition loading manual should be consulted for load development using a particular powder. Always follow good loading practices outlined in your loading manual. Our PDR design will tend to have less pressure due to less bearing surface contact with the bore. We recommend looking for a powder showing fairly high load density for similar weight bullets, but not compressed. We also recommend using a magnum primer to start ignition more quickly in order to seal the chamber as the bullet enters the bore. Use of a chronograph to watch muzzle velocity compared to similar weight bullet velocity listed in loading manual will aid in load development. Muzzle velocity exceeding max load velocity listed for similar weight bullets in loading manual should be approached with caution. Muzzle velocity is an indication of pressure. Always watch for known pressure indicators such as heavy bolt lift or ejector marks on brass as well. We have found that Hammer Bullets™ are not sensitive to seating depth. Seating to mag length for repeating rifles or just off the lands will generally work very well without need to adjust for better accuracy. Load development should be easy. Find your seating depth, choose your powder and primer, use start load data and work up your load to desired velocity, sight it in, and have fun hitting it with a Hammer." Hammer load 358 data... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qEY678EJRTYZthq-d8fP1cQsIYkx7PT2BBSt43MvORA/edit?pli=1#gid=0Good luck. Let us know what you find.
Sacred cows make good burgers when you know what temperature to cook them at.-Rev. Billy
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,608 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,608 Likes: 1 |
Yep, TAC was always slow as fk from carbine barrels in both a 358 winchester and a .410-9.3x62 wildcat. Dirty and more recoil. Signs of excessive pressure way before any decent velocity. Shtty accuracy as well. Youre not the first one on here unimpressed with TAC and won't be the last. There's been many.
Try Alliant RL 10x powder with standard primers. It's given great velocity in the 358 winchester, with a wide range of bullets from 180 grain tsx to 275 grain woodleighs. I'd start at 45 grains and work up from there. Oftentimes the velocity will be very close to rl 7 loads, but with less pressure.
Jess, the guy who rebored your rifle is the one that suggested 10x for the reasons stated above. He was right on the money, it was phenomenal in 3 rifles he rebored for me: a 30-30 to 375 win, a 308 to 358 win and a 30-06 to the .410 wildcat off the 9.3 case.
All 20 " barrels, 3 instances of TAC with the same old garbage results. 10x was a home run everytime. I've put aways thousands of lbs of moose n caribou using 10x handloads.
Last edited by mainer_in_ak; 11/21/23.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 808
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 808 |
I would suggest a trial with aa2015. Quicker and cleaner burning than TAC. Should be good in your 358.
F01
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390 |
TAC is a pretty slow powder for the application, but the barrel should speed up. What's your barrel length?
In my current 18.5" 358 rebore, 49.5gr of TAC under a 200 accubond gets 2550 fps. In a previous 18.5" rebore 49.5gr of TAC got 2515 fps.
Both those rifles were cut with short throats for the Accubonds so...that is probably speeding them up.
I needed a 3" drop tube to get anymore than 50gr into the case.
You can definitely try a faster powder or wait and see if the barrel speeds up.
I tried RL-10X and speeds were slightly faster but the temperature sensitivity was high. If you don't live in the south (and shoot at 105 in the summer and 30 in the winter) you won't have a problem. 49.5gr of TAC here gets 2560 in summer and 2540 in winter.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,388
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,388 |
How about LVR with a 200 RN? or 180 Speer?
Gordon's Reloading Tool shows load data but no where else can I find it. His stuff is all computer projections, so a bit leary of using it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1 |
How many rounds thru the barrel since the rebore? Maybe it hasn't sped up yet? I remember reading somewhere that the Hammers are so slippery that it may be necessary to go to a quicker powder. TAC seems a bit on the slow side for lighter bullets in the 358. AA2015 & IMR3031 work very well in my 358 with c&c 200s & both are a few steps quicker than TAC. RL7 & RL10X were looking good too, but are unobtanium right now. N130 or N133 may be good too & they are available. A quick series with N133 & 200s was promising but never finalized. Dont think I've tried any lighter bullets than the 200s yet. From the Hammer site... "A reputable ammunition loading manual should be consulted for load development using a particular powder. Always follow good loading practices outlined in your loading manual. Our PDR design will tend to have less pressure due to less bearing surface contact with the bore. We recommend looking for a powder showing fairly high load density for similar weight bullets, but not compressed. We also recommend using a magnum primer to start ignition more quickly in order to seal the chamber as the bullet enters the bore. Use of a chronograph to watch muzzle velocity compared to similar weight bullet velocity listed in loading manual will aid in load development. Muzzle velocity exceeding max load velocity listed for similar weight bullets in loading manual should be approached with caution. Muzzle velocity is an indication of pressure. Always watch for known pressure indicators such as heavy bolt lift or ejector marks on brass as well. We have found that Hammer Bullets™ are not sensitive to seating depth. Seating to mag length for repeating rifles or just off the lands will generally work very well without need to adjust for better accuracy. Load development should be easy. Find your seating depth, choose your powder and primer, use start load data and work up your load to desired velocity, sight it in, and have fun hitting it with a Hammer." Hammer load 358 data... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qEY678EJRTYZthq-d8fP1cQsIYkx7PT2BBSt43MvORA/edit?pli= 1#gid=0 Good luck. Let us know what you find. My fav is the 178 gr Shock Hammer over RL-7. I like the speed and the % fill without powder compression. Rl-7 was a bit more accurate than RL-10. X-Term is my second fav. TAC was JB’s fav in his great .358 write up. So, reckon depends on what you can find these days. DF
Last edited by Dirtfarmer; 11/21/23.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 489
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 489 |
I just started playing with TAC this year in .350RM and .358 Win, previously I've used it exclusively in .223 and had great results. In .223 I love it, the other's not so sure. The .350RM accuracy is lacking comparing what I can get with my old loads with IMR4320. In .358Win, 19" Rem 7600 (JES Rebore) I'm getting 2530 with 53.1 and FED215s, but the accuracy so far is so-so. I use an 8" drop tube and the 180s are seated to Speer suggested OAL, and have limited compression. Here's the 1st 4 shots at 52.0 at 50yds with Speer 180s (1st shot, adjustment, then 3): ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/KskF3Nxl.jpg) My 7600 currently wears a Swarovski 1.24-4X with a heavy duplex, so not exactly a precision rig anyway. The rifle has no where near enough rounds through it yet, so I'm not doing any serious load development. I'm going to zero it this weekend and call it good for this season as I'm only using the 7600 for a couple late season doe drives.
Last edited by Chuck_R; 11/21/23.
“Might does not make right but it sure makes what is.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1 |
My JES rebore is accurate, but early on it was bad about fouling. That seemed to settle down after it was shot a good bit and Dyna Bore Coat did help.
I can see some tool marks thru the Hawkeye. But they shoot. And that’s the bottom line.
DF
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 489
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 489 |
My JES rebore is accurate, but early on it was bad about fouling. That seemed to settle down after it was shot a good bit and Dyna Bore Coat did help.
I can see some tool marks thru the Hawkeye. But they shoot. And that’s the bottom line.
DF I've got the same.. Not losing sleep over it till I get a couple hundred rounds down the tube.
“Might does not make right but it sure makes what is.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1 |
My JES rebore is accurate, but early on it was bad about fouling. That seemed to settle down after it was shot a good bit and Dyna Bore Coat did help.
I can see some tool marks thru the Hawkeye. But they shoot. And that’s the bottom line.
DF I've got the same.. Not losing sleep over it till I get a couple hundred rounds down the tube. It’ll smooth out before that many. Try DBC. DF
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649 |
Thanx guys!
The bore has around 100-150 rounds through it now after the rebore. Never really thought about speech up. I see it in my PRS rigs but never thought about it in this application.
I left the barrel factory 22".
Haven't tried any other powder...TAC and 180s or 200s was reported to be the way to go. I'll see what I can find and experiment more after the season...before next.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,523
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,523 |
Not all chronographs are 100% accurate. They can have variation and offset. Maybe shoot over someone elses and have them shoot over yours to compare accuracy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649 |
I've shot several thousand rounds across my labradar and my match rifles line up out to 1200 yards. I don't think it's missing a .358" bullet by 150-200fps. And when I'm at matches, I've shot over other guys labradars and my velocity on theirs is the same as it'd been on mine. Different rifle...but I don't think it's my labradar.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 649 |
Anyone ever try AR Comp??
Alliant shows a 180gr 338fed load. 48gr and 2847fps. I actually have a keg on hand. Could be worth a quick pressure and speed test. Should be safe to start at 43gr and work up? From my understanding the load data between the 338fed and 358win is usually pretty close but I don't know.
Reloader 7 and 10x are both in stock various places. Just have to see who has what else in stock to make it worth my while.
I shot my load again today to verify zero since yesterday I was running a quick n dirty work up. It's actually the best shooting load I've tried. I've never done extensive work up but the TTSX loads never grouped well. This load is looking like a legit .75moa which is IMO great considering the super light rig. So if I can't find better, that's fine too.
Oddly enough the TTSX load shoots nearly into the same group. Close enough that I will probably have both loads in my pocket lol. Still have a few TTSX loaded up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
RL7 is fantastic with 200’s on down… I did see where it was said to be unobtanium at this time.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390 |
I found two nodes with TAC and 200gr AB's in my 358, one at 2550 fps or so, 3/4 moa, and one that was giving pressure signs but was 1/4 moa and 2675 fps. TAC definitely gets better at high pressure. Drop tube required for the hotter load.
RL-10x worked well for me in the 358, but was more temp sensitive than TAC. It hit pressure at 2650fps, but had good case fill. TAC hit pressure at 2675 fps and needed the drop tube. 18.5" barrel with a pretty short throat.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,223
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,223 |
Not meaning to highjack the thread but I saw “Dyna Bore Coat” mentioned a couple times. I’ve used up my supply and cannot find any more…if you have a secret source and would share it, I’d be mighty grateful!
“My horn is full and my pouch is stocked with ball and patch. There is a new, sharp flint in my lock and my rifle and I are ready. It is sighted true and my eyes can still aim.”
Kaywoodie
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,230
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,230 |
Didn't see it listed at Brownell's, Grafs, or Midway USA. RZ.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,140 Likes: 1 |
Midway shows it as discontinued.
So maybe a call to the manufacturer would answer that question.
DF
|
|
|
|
|
588 members (10gaugemag, 01Foreman400, 06hunter59, 007FJ, 10ring1, 10gaugeman, 63 invisible),
2,231
guests, and
1,243
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,259
Posts18,486,403
Members73,967
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
