Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Which of you shot this? Gotta be a 24HR guy

Well, it might just be effective against more kinds of large predators than you expected..

Go back to cut n paste.


Fugg sakes.....

Can we get a ruling on pronunciation?


Is it CAR-BEAN?

or CAR-BINE?


I like car bine.

I like the way bean slips off my tongue...

You talking about the bean that differs from Milwaukee's Best because it only tastes like piss for a little while?

What does that 148 chrony from a 4" or so barrel?

I got an m&p mold for heavier flat nose or hp bullets earlier this year. I got some of each cast and PC'd and the Hps are 147 and the flat nose 153g. I'm in the process of working up loads. I'm hoping to get to 1100 fps with a +p load of 3n38 but not sure if I'll get there. I'm still bummed they discontinued n105.

Bb

The 148s run 1100 FPs from a Glock 17.



That .357 load above is a brand new one.

1430 FPS from my Ruger Security Six 6".



edited to correct the velocity numbers transposed.

I think you meant 1430 on the 180g?

Bb

Yes, I did, thank you.

I got a 5 shot average with Mackay's load of 1061, High 1068, Low 1048, Extreme Spread 20 out of a 3.7 inch barreled Sig P365 XL. I think that jwp475 got within a few fps of my results in his P365 XL.

I brought an old IIIA vest to a 24 Hour Campfire gathering more than a decade ago. Someone tied it to a tree. People shot it with all kinds of handguns as well as a shotgun slug. There wasn't a complete pass-through until someone pulled out something like a .460 S&W Magnum. Judging by the back of the armor and the tree, it would not have been fun to have been wearing it through most of the experimentation.

People don't realize that the shock wave from projectiles can cause substantial trauma.

There is a point where tissue stretches, then gives. I was talking about this via PM yesterday. This is a bit of a sidebar topic, but still relevant.

Just because you don't get complete penetration of a vest, does not mean that serious and permanent damage has not occurred.

From that conversation:




The damage that occurs from the shock wave inside a body (any body) is substantial. I had a guy die while I was talking to him. I was dealing with an overturned cattle truck. Had cattle loose on the road, and had requested permission to shoot them before they caused an injury accident. I was denied permission.

Cars were zooming along as they do. Cows doing what cows do, one got past us and collided with a car on the road. The guy was not wearing a seatbelt and hit the steering wheel with his chest. Not going super fast, but fast enough. I was talking to him, said he was fine then started going pale, and then he was passing out. Then he was dead. No immediate signs.

Ended up being a detached aorta (found out at autopsy). Dead in maybe 90 seconds- 2 minutes.

You can argue about seatbelt laws, speeding laws, whatever, but you can't argue with the laws of physics.





The guy who died had external bruises from the steering wheel, but that was it on the outside.

MS, that's an interesting case, but doesn't have much applicability to the blunt force trauma of a gunshot impact to a ballistic vest. The fellow you describe who died from hitting the cow at highway speed suffered an aortic root dislocation or tear, which is termed an acceleration-deceleration injury. These are a real problem if the victim is not wearing a shoulder belt and impacts the steering wheel, but this can and does happen even when you're wearing your lap & shoulder belt if you're traveling fast enough and you hit an immobile object at high enough speed. Obviously, wearing the seatbelt decreases the risk of this type of injury, but it's still common and is probably the second most common cause of death (after head injury) in MVA's.

Basically, your body stops moving forward, restrained by seatbelt or by steering wheel or whatever, and your heart keeps moving forward. Your aorta, which is tethered by connective tissue inside the mediastinum of the chest, stops with the rest of your chest while the heart slams forward an inch or two. That inch or two is all it takes to rip the aorta from its attachment to the top of the left ventricle. The heart, if it has not been otherwise damaged, keeps beating and within a minute or two pumps 40-50% of your blood volume into your chest cavity, which results in death. It isn't the blow to the chest from the steering wheel that tore that man's aorta from his heart, it was the differential rates of deceleration of the aorta and the heart that killed him.

The blunt force trauma of a gunshot impact to a ballistic vest can be significant. It can fracture ribs, severely contuse chest wall tissues, but it will not be sufficient to cause an aortic root dislocation. In theory, a rib fracture could result in a tear in the lung and a pneumothorax subsequently, but I am not aware of such a case happening. Similarly, pulmonary contusions (which are common in MVA trauma) are not described in the trauma literature from vest impacts. There is ample documentation in the trauma and police literature of the real effect of bullet hits to cops wearing ballistic vests, and the injuries thus sustained are rarely severe enough to require more than a short healing period, if even that.

Over the past 30 years of ER practice I have treated a good number of cops who took rounds to the vest from felons' guns, and most of whom were minimally injured. In one case a bullet hit near the edge of the officer's vest and the bullet bypassed the vest margin and penetrated the chest, which required surgical intervention, but this is not the same thing at all as an impact where the full momentum of the felon's bullet was absorbed by the vest. In a recent case I handled, a female U.S. Marshall took a 9mm round to the chest and another bullet ricocheted into the back of her leg. She was not significantly injured and after a careful evaluation (including CT scan) she was released back to full duty the same day, at her request.

This is not to say that worse injuries can't happen. Most criminals use cheap guns and cheap ammo, so most cops shot by bad guys are hit with 9mm 115 gr ball ammo. If the Bad Guy is armed with a 44 Magnum and 240 gr full power loads, the blunt trauma on the inside of the vest is going to be significantly worse. But even then, you're not going to see the cop's chest explode like a milk jug full of water as shown in the video.

Hey doc!

Great write up. The "side bar" caveat was why I was separating the vehicle injury accident conversation and the bullet conversation, as they were heading into two different paths. Glad you posted. Your writeup definitely did a far better job and this is definitely right up your alley!

Good to see you posting.

Glad to make a contribution to the general knowledge base of my friends here, Ted. This is a very good and interesting thread, overall.