Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 224 Texas Trophy Hunter?

The optimum powder for a given cartridge is not a matter of personal preference, choice, or guess. The optimum powder � not always available as a handloader's component � is a matter of its relative quickness and its bulk density.

The first criterion, of course, is the maximum pressure desired. The second criterion is the percentage of case fill. Safety first, consistency second. My criteria are (a) pressures no higher than 50,000 lb/sq in. and (b) 90�100% case fill.

These criteria determine the best choices of powder for any cartridge that I load for. I could get passably good loads with smaller case fills of faster powders � but I'd be risking safety and consistency, and would almost certainly get lower velocities.

Powder choice then dictates � to some extent � primer choice.

(Here, I've had to delete a very useful and informative table because the 'fire's cussed text-processor jams it all together into a hopeless jumble.)

************** [DELETION] **************

QuickLOAD can tell you which powders are your best ("optimum") choices for your combined criteria. My criteria, for example, are
(a) maximum pressure not to exceed 50,000 lb/sq in. (for safety)
� and �
(b) 90�100% case fill (for consistency).

If you use one of the optimum powders, you won't be able to drop enough of it into the case to get dangerously high pressures. That happens when the powder that you're using is too fast for a caseful of it to produce safe maximum pressures.

If you use a powder that's too slow, you can't drop enough of it into the case to get pressures as high as you want.

As illustrations, consider the extremes:
� Bullseye is 'way too fast for a caseful to be safe in a .30-06,
� and �
� 50BMG is too slow for a caseful to produce the pressures that a .30-06 can handle or the velocities that a .30-06 can safely produce.

The optimum powder for any case, bullet, and seating depth (net powder capacity) is a matter of quickness (erroneously called "burning rate") and bulk density � not a matter of personal preference or availability, or whether it's optimum for another cartridge. The optimum powder for any round is one of the available powders that
(a) just fills the net powder space in the case
� and �
(b) produces no more than the desired maximum pressure.

Any other powder is either too fast (dangerous) or too slow (weak) to give you the best combination of maximum velocity and safe maximum pressure.

Dr. Howell,

I would really like to see that chart you deleted. You could post it as a picture without problems. To do this, select the table (or all the data in it) and copy. Then paste it in Windows Paint and save as a .jpg file. Then upload it to your favorite internet photo account and post it here as with any photo.

The procedure above is an outline and lacks detail. If you would like more detail, please let me know. I can guide you keystroke-by-keystroke if you like. Or, if you prefer, you can email the file to me and I will post it. Thank you.

For the record, you may be "old", you may be "decrepit", and you may even be an "ol' phardt", but one thing you definitely are not is "useless." The only reason I feel I can get away with agreeing with you on a couple of these assessments is because the shoe fits me as well. I am not yet old, and am ever-so-slightly more than useless, but I am decrepit (ask any of my doctors), and definitely an ol' phardt (ask any of my kids).

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I misspoke. I should have inserted "expertise" in place of "opinion", as I have the utmost respect for your wealth of knowledge and vast experience.

The slowest powder that I had around at the time was IMR-7828, but I wasn't able to find a load that would shoot good enough groups and, since the throat was eroding so quickly, I didn't feel like wasting my time on a project that was more of a tangential time-filler than something that I was particularly interested in.

Also, as anyone who has studied statistics learns early on, the minimum sample size necessary to model the universe is 30, so my sample of 1 is far too insufficient to indicate in any way what the universe of the 22-6mm would look like. What I do know is that I tried it and didn't like it, for the reasons noted, in what was likely a sub-optimal platform for the experiment. If I had had serious interest in that project, I would likely have put together a 22-6mm from better quality components, but since I didn't care, I chose not to spend the time/$$ necessary to extend the experiment.

Jeff

Very interesting... run more powder, but slower, but the increase of amount of powder will make up the difference and take it up to warp speed. ALl the while saving the throat.

Very interesting. I"ll have to remember this one. As it was, all my competitive shooting was bound by certain legal cases we could use. Namely the 223 in the latter years, so you did what you could with what you had.

I like the thought of a fast but non burner in a small caliber with a high bc heavy for caliber bullet.

Jeff

The 224TTH was designed by Horace Gore of Texas Trophy Hunters Club. It was intended to serve up 60-80 gr .22 bullets at an improved velocity for excellent shot placement. His successes include many hogs and Whitetail's.

I looked for the article on this cartridge on www.ttha.com where it used to be but it is not there anymore.

.224 Texas Trophy Hunter (TTH) / .22-6mm Ackley Improved
Warning! Notes: Following extensive experiments with the 220 Swift, 22/250 and 240 Weatherby cases, the designer settled on the 6mm Remington case as the best balance of case taper, shoulder angle, length and capacity. Necking the 6mm Remington case down to 224 (with the factory's 26-degree shoulder angle), he created a cartridge that would deliver heavier well-constructed, 70 to 80-grain 224 bullets accurately at relatively high velocities. The 6mm case provides optimum capacity for the 224 bore, brass is readily available, and standard actions and magazines require no modification other than a new barrel. Proper rifling twist for the 224 Texas Trophy Hunter is 1:8 or 1:9. Bullet construction is the key to success; it takes a stout, thick jacket, solid or bonded core bullet to hold up to the velocity potential. Stoutly constructed bullets can be driven in excess of 3,500 fps. Dies are available from Redding; Nosler recently endorsed its 22-caliber 60-grain Partition bullet for whitetail deer hunting. (Cartridges of the World 10th Edition)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
55 Trophy Bonded Hodgdon H-4831 46.5 3,840

60 Nosler Partition Hodgdon H-4831 46.0 3,780

79 Lost River Vihtavuori VV-N165 45.0 3,520

Good discussion here. Just reread a little about the .224 Clark a few minutes ago in Wolfe's Wildcat cartridges book. Based on the 257 Roberts case necked down and i think blown out somewhat here and there. I also have a couple samples of the old Hornady 80 gr. Clark bullet someone sent me awhile back that's kinduva nice neat little piece of nostalgia. Would've liked to have shot some with those guys back in those true experimental days.

I'll be building a .224 Vais one of these days probably on a McGowen handgun/barrel (6.5X55 Lapua brass necked down and blown out some) for long-range coyotes. I think it's between the Swift and 6mmAI capacity.

There was a decent article by Seyfried about the 22-6 AI in the latest American Hunter mag.

Here is the chart of optimum loadings for the 220 Howell. Thanks, Dr. Howell.



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thanks to all, but still I have a question that was begged above. I started this thread based on paper figures taken from Cartridges of the World. They show no improvement between the 22-250/Swift vs. the 224TTH. can someone please publish velocities?

I feel that we are long over do for a commercial large case, heavy bullet cartridge in 22 caliber to take advantage of all the new heavy weight 22 bullets available today and Dr. Howell's cartridge would fit the bill perfectly.
What's interesting is that this would be quit close to to the 22 Newton that came out for a while before World War 1. Of course the 22 Newton used a .228 bore and they didn't have the slow powders we have today but Newton still claimed 3100 FPS with a 90 gr. bullet.
Charles Newton was surely a man ahead of his time. He also designed the 22 Hi-Power and probably the 22-250 (probably with a .228 bore also) that was picked up later by Grosvenor Wotkyns, J.E. Gebby and J.E. Smith.
Speaking of the 22-250, the first commercial 22-250 rifle I ever saw was made by Browning and this was some months before any Remington's were available. I believe that I heard that Brownings were available about 2 years before Remington's. Sure wish I had bought it. My Uncle, Harold McCallum had it in his gun shop in Monroe Oregon. He was a Browning dealer.
Some of you old timers may remember Harold as having at one time one of the largest and most complete Winchester collections in existence.

Doc

iambrb: Horace Gore wrote several articles a few years back in the Journal of the Texas Trophy Hunters Association. The articles used to be available from a link on the TTHA website. Just looked and couldn't find it. You might email the TTHA and ask if they could send you a copy of Horace's articles. They were very complete and informative regarding the cartridge. Meanwhile, I found the following by Googling "224 Texas Trophy Hunter":

224 Texas Trophy Hunter (TTH) / .22-6mm Ackley Improved
Warning! Notes: Following extensive experiments with the 220 Swift, 22/250 and 240 Weatherby cases, the designer settled on the 6mm Remington case as the best balance of case taper, shoulder angle, length and capacity. Necking the 6mm Remington case down to 224 (with the factory's 26-degree shoulder angle), he created a cartridge that would deliver heavier well-constructed, 70 to 80-grain 224 bullets accurately at relatively high velocities. The 6mm case provides optimum capacity for the 224 bore, brass is readily available, and standard actions and magazines require no modification other than a new barrel. Proper rifling twist for the 224 Texas Trophy Hunter is 1:8 or 1:9. Bullet construction is the key to success; it takes a stout, thick jacket, solid or bonded core bullet to hold up to the velocity potential. Stoutly constructed bullets can be driven in excess of 3,500 fps. Dies are available from Redding; Nosler recently endorsed its 22-caliber 60-grain Partition bullet for whitetail deer hunting. (Cartridges of the World 10th Edition)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
55 Trophy Bonded Hodgdon H-4831 Click Here 3,840

60 Nosler Partition Hodgdon H-4831 Click Here 3,780

79 Lost River Vihtavuori VV-N165 Click Here 3,520


(c) 2004 Loaddata.com

iambrb,
you should get soild 3800 fps with the 60 grain bullets.I get 3600 fsp with hornaday amax 75 grn bullets, i am testing 70 grn barnes TXS so far I am at 47 grns reloader 22 with an average mv of 3700. I have began to experiment with rx25 jury is still out on this powder. speed isn't a problem with this round but finding a bullet that will not spin apart in flight is the true problem with this round. Excluding triple shocks.

If i was gonna blow lighter bullets out of those bigger cases, i'd go straight to the 65 JLK Low Drag (BC-.4) rated for 10 twist just to see what it'd do on long-range coyotes.

Reloader28 posted;

"Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
55 Trophy Bonded Hodgdon H-4831 46.5 3,840

60 Nosler Partition Hodgdon H-4831 46.0 3,780"

Looking at my new Nosler Reloading Guide No. 6,it appears that I have a FACTORY ROUND that equals the 224 TTH. And the Nosler manual shows a load producing only 25fps less @ 3755 fps with the 60 gr Partition. Mine came chambered in one of those useless A-Bolts with a crome lined barrel. It is of course, a dead and totally useless round known as the 223WSSM.
Is the 224 TTH better than the 223WSSM? Are wildcats always better? What the heck is really wrong with the 223WSSM anyway?
Ah well, to each his own. Most folks don't think much of my old 8mm-06 either.

There was lots of discussion on the dearly departed www.wssmzone.com site about people with Winchester/USRA 70s chambered in 223 WSSM having accuracy problems. Much of the discussion centered around the 1 in 10" twist rate of rifling that Winchester/USRA settled on for all 3 of the WSSM rounds; 223, 243, and 25, and the erratic quality control in the final couple of years that Winchester/USRA was building rifles in CT.

I really like the 25 WSSM and after having shot in the neighborhood 1,200 rounds, find it to be as accurate as the rifle it is fired in, not that hard to reload, and at least equal in performance to the 257 Roberts.

Jeff

I had not heard of accuracy problems with the Winchesters. My Browning A-Bolt is quite accurate. I have used it to neck shoot turkeys out to 75 yds, not a large target.
I'm glad to hear that you enjoy your 25 WSSM. Guess I just get frustrated with all the negativity directed at the WSSMs. (I also love my 260 which has accounted for about 75% of the deer I've taken).

I appologize for getting off topic also. I think down deep all true rifle loonies would like just about any cartridge.

iambrb Just check ammoguide for the TTH and here is what it had to say The Texas Trophy Hunter is for all practical purposes ballistically identical to the.223 WSSM. "Another solution to a
problem that didn't exist." The one load given was a 60gr. nosler
at 3780 and 1904 ft-lbs and 223WSSM 60gr. nosler at 3707 and 1831ft-lbs. Oh by the way TTH uses 46gr. to get there and the 223WSSM uses 44 gr. to get there. Hope this helps you in choosing
Cheer NC edited to correct by NC

I don't have the 'zine close at hand, but if my memory is functional, I believe Ross Seyfried authored an article on the .224/6MM improved in the latest American Rifleman. Heavy bullets at 3600fps with excellent accuracy.

I have a 22-6mm with a 26 inch barrel shilen 1/8 twist. The load is 47grs v-165 v-3425 fps with a 80gr smk.I have about 200 rds shot though the barrel.This gun is very acurate I don't know how the barrel will last but it is death on balloons to 600 yds. Hope this helps you.

I have a 22-6mm with a 26 inch barrel shilen 1/8 twist. The load is 47grs v-165 v-3425 fps with a 80gr smk.I have about 200 rds shot though the barrel.This gun is very acurate I don't know how the barrel will last but it is death on balloons to 600 yds. Hope this helps you.