Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Utah DWR takes away scopes from Muzzleloaders

TC used to have a 1x rifle scope for such regulations.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009749095

Might have been made by Simmons ( ugh ).

Holosun 407c would be ideal, just need a front weaver single slot base and the picatinny mount for the holosun and I was banging 10” gongs at 400 with a Grendel bit long ago with 2’ to 30” hold over. 300 was a piece of cake, fist size groups holding bottom of dot on top of gong. You make a decal up for your 25 yard holds out to 400 and all set. They are a different league than irons as you can see underneath the dot which allows easier hold overs. No batteries required solar. Would be perfect for the muzzie

Forgot to add the 2 moa dot on rifle eye relief is more like 3.8 moa. Means if it fits in kill zone pull trigger, if not then start moving up.

Never used a scope on a muzzleloader, back in the day PA only had a Primitive Muzzleloader season, iron sights and flintlocks

This brings up the whole technology discussion. NM went scope less ML’s this year. I hunt ML quite a bit and don’t like it, but I’ll make it work. (Never shot anything past 200 anyways).

Just in my small circle, I know of 3 animals killed with archery equipment at 70+ yards. Is that still “primitive”? With range finders, sliders, mechanical broad heads, etc., archery hunters have become much more proficient. Where is that line?

In NM, if a bull survives the new scope less ML season, he could be shot the very next weekend at 700+ by a rifle hunter with a range finder, turrets, purpose built rifle etc. Obviously season dates play a factor, but some of the first elk rifle hunts still had bulls being pretty vocal this year.

Where is the line for archery and rifle before technology has to be addressed or tag numbers have to be cut?

Apparently The vortex spitfire AR is set up with a dial system that maybe could work. But it would sit high on most guns.

Both the Nikon 1x and vortex 1x are discontinued.

Thanks. I haven't kept up 100% but for some reason thought they allowed smokeless when they allowed scopes with magnification, looks like I was wrong.

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For several decades PAGC did exactly that.
Mandating open, iron sights, and round balls.

The flintlock part I don’t mind, enjoy it actually, it’s a real primitive season.

There is nothing sporting about using inferior sights or less effective ammo. Simply using fiber optics and any kind of modern bullet has improved our results.
Less tracking, rarely not finding the deer.





SLM,
“Where is that line"
Where in the hell is it?

Bow hunters all puffed up about their sport,
Buying a new$1200 bow every year because it gives some advantage. Outfitting it with every bit of new tech, to gain advantage. Then talking all about their prowess with said “primitive” weapon.


In the next breath, he is going to blast crossbows because “these crossbows make it too easy”!

Tech has improved crossbows, but the design is
Centuries old. They are improved from old designs by using……compound bow technology.


DGAS how a guy hunts,until he starts running his mouth and puffing up. Or shows his hypocrisy.

I happen to agree with this.....even though I own and sometimes hunt with a scoped inline black powder rifle.

That would keep many older hunters out of the game - due to eyesight.
A 1X scope, or non-magnifying optic should suffice, as far as the original intent.


IOW - "That's easy for YOU to say!"

What was the policy reason again?

Wouldnt hurt my feelings if they went to flintlock with iron sights only


LMAO. what are your thoughts on bow hunting?



Sucks gettin old. Primitive season is just that. If you cant use the required equipment, find a different hunt

Although I cannot use open sights anymore, I am glad that they are doing this. Muzzle loaders have gotten to the point that they are nothing but a single-shot rifle with longer range capabilities. I started muzzle loading in NM many years ago, before the advent of in-line rifles, sabots, and scopes. It was a true muzzle loader, primitive-style hunt. I now use an in-line rifle with a scope, because I can't shoot open sights well anyway and they are legal. The new technology has destroyed the essence of a primitive hunt, though. All anyone wants to do, is extend their shooting range. My hammer guns lay idle.

That being said, the 1x scope is a pos. To have the same view as without a scope, it needs to be a 1.5 at least. 1x is a tunnel view pos, in my opinion-I tried a couple different ones. If I had to go that route, it would be a red dot, most likely.

Technology has messed up other stuff, too, like fishing.

eBay <100.00 and used one on a handgun and muzzle loader for 35 years now. Called a Tasco pro point red dot. 1x mounts just like a scope.

My question is how does what somebody else uses mess it up for you? If you don't like scopes, don't use one. It takes a fragile person to be upset at others' equipment choices.

If it is a matter of controlling how much game is made, restrict the number of tags issued. But they would rather sell more tags and take in that cash and do other things to lower success rate.

You need to read the synopsis. Only one elk hunt durning the rut. Cow elk on private land in the Elkhorns. Easier to draw no, longer time to hunt no. Just saying.

Tag

Uh, ok, a modern bow can shoot 80-100 yards. So what. You don’t recognize the difference in lethality and the ethical conundrum created by a muzzleloader that can shoot 7-800 yards? Ok. You obviously don’t bow hunt.

You are missing a giant point… opportunity! Cutting tags to reach harvest objectives kills opportunity and draw odds. When they are so bad already, doing so just makes it worse. We want to be able to hunt! So the practical solution is to reduce lethality by limiting the weapon! Which was supposed to be limited in the first place.

I don't buy the older people and eye sight excuse. I'm73 and have been wearing glasses, since age 15. Glasses or contacts corrected the vision problems. Everyone is just looking for an advantage, that the primitive season was not intended to accommodate.

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It's no different from anything else that man is engaged in, he is always looking for an advantage. Give him an inch and he will take a mile. While I do believe that as a hunter you are obligated to dispatch your prey in the quickest and most humane possible.......and there is most certainly an argument for allowing a scope sight on a rifle in order to more precisely place your shot.......the term "primitive weapon" should mean just that.

I started out bow hunting in the 1960's with a recurve bow and wooden arrows, which was the standard outfit at the time. To take a deer with such a setup was indeed quite a feat. It wasn't long before bows had progressed into compounds, complete with sights which pretty much took all the guesswork out of hitting the target. Today's archery deer hunters are not using a weapon that is "primitive" by any stretch of the definition of the word.

It is also the same way with the muzzle loaders. My first one was a Hawken style, which was a huge improvement over the Kentucky style muzzle loaders that were mostly being used. Within a few short years, the open sighted Kentucky and Hawken styles were a thing of the past, with everyone wanting a synthetic stocked inline, with a scope, capable of accuracy that far exceeded that of the earlier rifle.

But, it's not just the bows and the rifles that have become modernized, it's all the other equipment that goes along with them. Arrows, broadheads, powder, bullets, primers...........you name it, it's nothing like it was when the states set up the primitive weapon seasons. However, by the same token, I no longer hunt deer with an open sighted military surplus rifle as I did when I started deer hunting in 1963. The equipment I use today is a far cry from what it was when I started back then. My gun is better, my clothes are warmer, I use trail cameras, I hunt out of a nice dry and warm shooting house, and I have the opportunity to hunt for more than the original 3 day season.

Yep, leave it to man, and he'll figure out a way to make it easier to do something, and that includes killing a deer.