This is a huge problem for those who believe God is infallible.
It might be for some, but clearly and certainly not all.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
These factual errors in the Bible clearly dispute that belief.
The error is on the part of those who misinterpret (either intentionally or unintentionally) in order to make what is said fit in with their preconceived bias.
I absolutely believe that the universe and the world and life on this earth are God's creation, and I believe that whatever means He used to achieve His creative objectives (the Big Bang, evolution, etc.) was very clever on His part. I see no incompatibilities between science and spirituality. None. I see science as a source of spirituality.
The literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story, to me, is stupidity beyond belief. We have factual information that proves that. Jesus referred to Genesis when talking to ancient Israelites because it’s what they knew. It’s the information they were given. They didn’t have the ability to understand the complexities of the universe or creation, so they were given allegory.
No big deal. Even Jesus used parables in His teachings, and they are clear examples of allegory.
Salvation doesn’t depend on one’s literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story anyway.
And a relationship with the risen Jesus doesn’t require an inerrant Bible.
They could have been educated and given the facts. The ancients were just as intelligent as us, just did not have our information and understanding of the natural world.
It is pretty simple, really. Books are written by people. People can only include in their books information of which they are aware.
The people who recorded the Old Testament could only write of what they knew. The Western Hemiphere is never mentioned. Germs are never mentioned. Rocks which can kill through non-contact exposure are never mentioned. Etc, etc, Not because the primitive peoples were not intelligent enough to understand. But, because the authors had no knowledge of the subjects.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
This is a huge problem for those who believe God is infallible.
It might be for some, but clearly and certainly not all.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
These factual errors in the Bible clearly dispute that belief.
The error is on the part of those who misinterpret (either intentionally or unintentionally) in order to make what is said fit in with their preconceived bias.
I absolutely believe that the universe and the world and life on this earth are God's creation, and I believe that whatever means He used to achieve His creative objectives (the Big Bang, evolution, etc.) was very clever on His part. I see no incompatibilities between science and spirituality. None. I see science as a source of spirituality.
The literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story, to me, is stupidity beyond belief. We have factual information that proves that. Jesus referred to Genesis when talking to ancient Israelites because it’s what they knew. It’s the information they were given. They didn’t have the ability to understand the complexities of the universe or creation, so they were given allegory.
No big deal. Even Jesus used parables in His teachings, and they are clear examples of allegory.
Salvation doesn’t depend on one’s literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story anyway.
And a relationship with the risen Jesus doesn’t require an inerrant Bible.
They could have been educated and given the facts. The ancients were just as intelligent as us, just did not have our information and understanding of the natural world.
It is pretty simple, really. Books are written by people. People can only include in their books information of which they are aware.
The people who recorded the Old Testament could only write of what they knew. The Western Hemiphere is never mentioned. Germs are never mentioned. Rocks which can kill through non-contact exposure are never mentioned. Etc, etc, Not because the primitive peoples were not intelligent enough to understand. But, because the authors had no knowledge of the subjects.
According to the believers, every word was inspired by God, who could of imparted all that knowledge to them for his perfect book, but doesn't seem to be what happened.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
If you focus on only what the Bible says, are you making the Bible your ultimate authority instead of making Jesus your ultimate authority…? It is Jesus, not the Bible, which is the ‘Word of God’ ~ most eloquently expressed in John 1. ‘The Word’ became flesh and lived amongst us ~ but if we focus only on what the Bible says, are we are in danger of turning ‘the Word’ made flesh back into a mere word again…? Instead of incarnation, do we become guilty of decarnation, of turning God’s ‘Word’ from something living and personal to something dry and propositional…?
On one hand, Jesus appears quite happy to put the authority of His own words above the authority of the words of Scripture: “You have heard it said…but I say to you…” (Matt 5.21–37). On the other hand, Jesus made it clear that the whole point of the Scriptures is to point to Him. “You search the scriptures because you ‘think’ that in them you have life. But it is these that testify about Me” (John 5.39).
In other words, if you get too obsessed with what the Scriptures say, it’s like standing in front of a signpost studying it rather than following where it is pointing.
Some people worship Jesus, and some people worship a book. Some people believe their faith is based on Jesus and the resurrection, and some people believe their faith is based on a book. And those who worship a book and believe their faith is based on a book castigate those who worship Jesus and believe their faith is based on Jesus and the resurrection.
From what Book did we find out about the resurrection?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
If you focus on only what the Bible says, are you making the Bible your ultimate authority instead of making Jesus your ultimate authority…? It is Jesus, not the Bible, which is the ‘Word of God’ ~ most eloquently expressed in John 1. ‘The Word’ became flesh and lived amongst us ~ but if we focus only on what the Bible says, are we are in danger of turning ‘the Word’ made flesh back into a mere word again…? Instead of incarnation, do we become guilty of decarnation, of turning God’s ‘Word’ from something living and personal to something dry and propositional…?
On one hand, Jesus appears quite happy to put the authority of His own words above the authority of the words of Scripture: “You have heard it said…but I say to you…” (Matt 5.21–37). On the other hand, Jesus made it clear that the whole point of the Scriptures is to point to Him. “You search the scriptures because you ‘think’ that in them you have life. But it is these that testify about Me” (John 5.39).
In other words, if you get too obsessed with what the Scriptures say, it’s like standing in front of a signpost studying it rather than following where it is pointing.
You are using the Scriptures to try NOT to use the Scriptures.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
Some people worship Jesus, and some people worship a book. Some people believe their faith is based on Jesus and the resurrection, and some people believe their faith is based on a book. And those who worship a book and believe their faith is based on a book castigate those who worship Jesus and believe their faith is based on Jesus and the resurrection.
From what Book did we find out about the resurrection?
Consider a compass as an analogy for Jesus and the scriptures. A compass always points to the North Pole just like scripture always points to Jesus. The compass will keep you on the right path to finding your way just like scripture keeps you on the right path to finding Jesus.
However, the North Pole exists independently of the compass. You could still get there without the compass, although it would probably be quite difficult and you might even die before you did. But, the compass is worthless and unusable if there is no North Pole. So, they work in tandem but one is clearly greater than the other. Jesus is to have first place and preeminence in everything.
The scribes and pharisees studied the scriptures intently for eternal life, but they couldn’t see Jesus standing right there in front of them. They had the written word but not the living Word.
If you focus on only what the Bible says, are you making the Bible your ultimate authority instead of making Jesus your ultimate authority…? It is Jesus, not the Bible, which is the ‘Word of God’ ~ most eloquently expressed in John 1. ‘The Word’ became flesh and lived amongst us ~ but if we focus only on what the Bible says, are we are in danger of turning ‘the Word’ made flesh back into a mere word again…? Instead of incarnation, do we become guilty of decarnation, of turning God’s ‘Word’ from something living and personal to something dry and propositional…?
On one hand, Jesus appears quite happy to put the authority of His own words above the authority of the words of Scripture: “You have heard it said…but I say to you…” (Matt 5.21–37). On the other hand, Jesus made it clear that the whole point of the Scriptures is to point to Him. “You search the scriptures because you ‘think’ that in them you have life. But it is these that testify about Me” (John 5.39).
In other words, if you get too obsessed with what the Scriptures say, it’s like standing in front of a signpost studying it rather than following where it is pointing.
Originally Posted by Ringman
You are using the Scriptures to try NOT to use the Scriptures.
The original Biblical texts were inspired, for sure (I believe that). But if you’re not inspired to receive the spiritual message then you can easily miss it. The truth can be very subtle, and when the truth takes the form of written text then our fallible minds can miss the subtleties that require “ears to hear.” The message can transcend the words that describe it.
Such is the nature of spiritual truth. God can easily get conceptualized by trying to describe Him with words. He said for us to be still and know that He is God. Gotta be careful not to get too scriptural, and miss being spiritual.
Some folks have traded in the Spirit for a book, chapter, and verse. They come across as being scriptural, but not spiritual, at all.
Some people worship Jesus, and some people worship a book. Some people believe their faith is based on Jesus and the resurrection, and some people believe their faith is based on a book. And those who worship a book and believe their faith is based on a book castigate those who worship Jesus and believe their faith is based on Jesus and the resurrection.
From what Book did we find out about the resurrection?
Consider a compass as an analogy for Jesus and the scriptures. A compass always points to the North Pole just like scripture always points to Jesus. The compass will keep you on the right path to finding your way just like scripture keeps you on the right path to finding Jesus.
However, the North Pole exists independently of the compass. You could still get there without the compass, although it would probably be quite difficult and you might even die before you did. But, the compass is worthless and unusable if there is no North Pole. So, they work in tandem but one is clearly greater than the other. Jesus is to have first place and preeminence in everything.
The scribes and pharisees studied the scriptures intently for eternal life, but they couldn’t see Jesus standing right there in front of them. They had the written word but not the living Word.
Apple versus orange. We can demonstrate that compasses and the earth poles exist, and the science behind the interaction. On the other hand the more controversial stories about Jesus are just bullshit.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Jesus is the thing. Scripture is the sign that points toward the thing. The difference between scripture and Jesus is the difference between the menu and the food. The menu describes the life-giving substance, the food is that life-giving substance.
Jesus is the thing. Scripture is the sign that points toward the thing. The difference between scripture and Jesus is the difference between the menu and the food. The menu describes the life-giving substance, the food is that life-giving substance.
There are a lot of things written. Any number of gods, any number of beliefs.
The Bible is not a book about science. That’s not part of the scope of the Bible. The scope of the Bible according to 2nd Timothy 3 is to make us wise for salvation through faith in Jesus. It’s not supposed to tell us everything about everything. There’s no book that can tell us everything about everything.
The Bible is really a story about one bloodline…the bloodline of the Messiah…where Jesus actually comes to earth and humanity to save the very humanity that rebelled against Him. Jesus even says in Luke 24 that the scriptures are all about Him and how He’s the Redeemer of the world.
The Bible is not a book about science. That’s not part of the scope of the Bible. The scope of the Bible according to 2nd Timothy 3 is to make us wise for salvation through faith in Jesus. It’s not supposed to tell us everything about everything. There’s no book that can tell us everything about everything.
The Bible is really a story about one bloodline…the bloodline of the Messiah…where Jesus actually comes to earth and humanity to save the very humanity that rebelled against Him. Jesus even says in Luke 24 that the scriptures are all about Him and how He’s the Redeemer of the world.
What I got from that is that the thief received salvation because of his sincere repentance and sincere admission he was wrong and asked for forgiveness. This is the path to salvation that the bible states over and over.
This is what makes me think maybe even Judas Iscariot may have received salvation. He certainly repented, he certainly admitted his wrong doing, and I don't know how he could have shown more remorse.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you." Hebrew Roots Judaizer
What I got from that is that the thief received salvation because of his sincere repentance and sincere admission he was wrong and asked for forgiveness. This is the path to salvation that the bible states over and over.
This is what makes me think maybe even Judas Iscariot may have received salvation. He certainly repented, he certainly admitted his wrong doing, and I don't know how he could have shown more remorse.
