Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Critique this shot session,

Annealing is always step one before anything else.

Knowing my basic reloading skills and techniques,

Chrono accuracy is likely down the list of issues to address.

You'll get more consistent results with 8208XBR, and even AR Comp, if you have any. That CFE223 can be finicky, from what I've seen in the 223 case. Funny thing is, my 308 winchesters love the stuff!! Go figure. Also, if you are using LC brass, that may be inconsistent in case volume and neck tension. When trying to develop really accurate ammo, everything needs to be consistent. Wondering if you are just dropping powder from your powder measure, or if you are tyring to weigh it?? I just drop from the uni-flow and go. It seems to meter very consistently, so I'd suspect scale weight variations, if you are actually weighing it.

The question I'd ask is how accurate are your loads? Sometimes chronographs have their quirks too. One reason I don't always go by the numbers. I test accuracy/precision downrange, and let that tell me what the rifle likes.

For those reasons, I don't have either. What is going to tell you the most about your handloads, is how consistent it is on target. I've watched guys struggle with the sd es numbers at the range, to the point they are pulling their hair out. That is fine, if you can't shoot for chidt, use the fancy chrono and try to get the best numbers. But if you can send them downrange on target with consistency, just shoot and let the rifle tell you what is best.

Weighed almost all those charges if not all.

A lot of this is mental masterbation, but it’s how we learn and understand things. Has mentioned above, I often get unexplained flyers.
I’m not a benchrest shooter, don’t shoot comps, Just having fun at the range.

That could be the problem. What kind of powder measure do you have? Does it not drop consistent charges? If it does drop consistent charges, I'd do an experiment and load some up with just dropped charges, and recheck those. See what the numbers tell you. It could be a scale issue/use problem. That would be narrowed down pretty easily. With powders like CFE223, and the baby cartridge 223, you really should be just dropping charges from the powder measure and going. It's so much quicker, and can be just as accurate, if not more so than weighing and trickling charges in.

We all love to "have fun at the range". If it were not fun, or we were not learning something, we probably wouldn't be doing it. Your questions are valid. I hope you get it figured out. It may be part of the process, that is not consistent. But like I said, that CFE223 powder can be finicky.

Well guy I have both and use both. Will say that the only thing i use the numbers for is drops. Have shot some really nice groups where the numbers werent all that good. Shot some fairly bad groups when the numbers were really good. But yes its a rabbit hole that doesn’t lead to wonderland when chasing ES/SD especially if you arent shooting competition.
Fliers are mostly caused by brass being out of whack. Mark and segregate the offenders for better evaluation at home.

100 fps ES is a huge red flag that something isn't working right. For what I do, that's not even close to a "load" and I'd keep digging until that tightened up, a LOT. Shoot 20 or 25 of those into the same group and let's see what you got. I'm betting heavy odds it's garbage.

Small capacity cartridges, in my experience, don't tolerate wide swings in powder charge weight. That's the reason I test them in .1 grain increments to find the center of a good node.

Never tried CFE223, because I've heard/read it's finicky. The last thing I want to add to the equation with a small capacity cartridge, is finicky.

H335 has always been my go-to 223/556 powder in our ARs. It meters VERY well and dropped charges weigh close enough across the board to negate a real need for trickling. Keep the hopper full, use a baffle, check every 10th drop, and rock on.

I use a LOT of LC 556 brass, and I sort them by headstamp.

Neck tension has a LOT to do with small ES/SD numbers no matter the cartidge. The amount doesn't really matter as long as it's within reason, but consistency is critical. Bushing dies and expander mandrels never not work if your goal is defined by precision.

You're not providing a lot of info that probably has some bearing on your results.
I'm going to assume that your powder charges are all correct................

Is the brass all the same headstamp, from the same lot with the same number of firings?

This is hugely important for getting uniform neck tension, which can affect velocity variation.

For meaningful testing for load quality, you should use brass all from the same lot, same number of firings & either annealed or at least, with a slight crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp die............& when I say slight, I mean just enough to get variable neck tensions to something as close as possible w/o a hard crimp.

If you were not doing the above, then by default, you will see more variable results, but I surely can't quantify how much, just that you will get more.

As for the 2 powders that you tested, Varget usually is pretty consistent; I don't have much real experience with CFE-223, but enough to know that compared to several powders that I like better, it's never been equal as far as accuracy goes................never chrono'ed it.

It doesn't make the cut for me as a really good 5.56 powder.............it's ok, not great.

Varget doesn't meter well enough for a small case, but since you weighed the charges, it should be fine.

Since you got similar results with both powders, I would strongly lean to the main cause being variable brass & neck tension.

But truly, after load testing, at least for just banging loads, I mix brass for 5.56, because I have so much. But for my "precision" guns, I keep brass together by HS, & by lot as much as is practical, & number of firings.

For testing I don't get too excited by ES's of 40 or so if the loads shoot well. I do think 90 is on the high side & given reasonably controlled test conditions, you should be able to do better............and it does not sound like you controlled the possible variables to the degree you should to see the best results from a variable velocity standpoint.

Maybe you can provide some more info,

MM

Great post.

All Lake City brass, but not all same year. Weights seemed pretty consistent though if I recall…..

Might look into crimping,

The rifle itself is a 16inch WC Carbine, 2 stage trigger, currently wearing a basic 2.5x8 luepy,

Most of the time it’s my fun gun with a Holosun Red dot, Accuracy with zero magnification isn’t expected on my end,

Just trying out different powders and such, I do have 400 new pieces of new .223 brass that could be used, otherwise about 3000 pcs of once fired Lake city to go through,

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts.

I'd rather see a 450 or Rem 7 1/2.

No gots,

It never ends……………

Don't worry, you are alright using the 400's. There are plenty of us that have fired off thousands of those primers with no issues. Even in AR's. If you run into a good deal on the 450's you can try them though. Personally in an AR15, I'd rather use a CCI41. Some loads I've ran with that primer, have produced very good results. Same can be said about the BR4's. They work excellent in the AR15 223 rem loads I run. The BR4's also have a thicker cup, which makes them ideal to use in the AR.

Go back and read what Montana Man posted, then read it again. I've spent a significant amount of time looking for consistently smaller sd's /tighter extreme spreads. I've found tight ES comes first from meticulous brass selection, and second meticulous brass prep. There are few things that make a measurable difference all by themselves. Brass selection is one item that makes a measurable difference all by itself. Absent brass selection, you'll get results similar to what you have now.