Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer- Know of any .270 brown/grizzly kills?

Hi Mule Deer.... Is Annabelle the first name or last name of Russell Annabelle? I looked at one of his books on the internet and the author is listed as Russel Annabelle on the cover of the book and other books displayed the same name???? It's cold here in the mountains of East Tennessee tonight.

Last name. Have never seen Annabelle on any of his articles or books. Where did you Google it?

Hi John.... I screwed up when I used the spelling correction function on my cell phone. I didn't pay attention to it. It is spelled Annabel, not Annabelle. I was just asking if Annabel was his first or last name. I've always assumed it was the last name. I just typed in Russel Annabel, author/writer and it went to Russel Annabel and a list of his books. Thanks for your patience and reply.

If a grizzly charges you, you will be faced with a frontal shot with very little time, probably under 2 seconds to shoot. At this point you need to hit the CNS (brain), those nice behind the shoulder shots most likely will not be available. Bullet construction, sectional density and of course power to some extent are most important. To say you feel save with a 44 Mag but not a 270 doesn't really make sense to me unless you shoot a lot better with your 44 Mag.

AdventureBound;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust that the start of the second week of the year has been good to you thus far and you're well.

Since you're reading material by the late James Gary Shelton, if you've not read his other two books on bears, in my opinion they're worth a read.

He lived in Hagensborg which is half way up the BC coast to Alaska where there is no shortage of bears. As well as being a bear guide for awhile, he became the one who got the call all over the province to do bear attack investigations and finally he developed and taught a bear survival course which was mandated for some work by WorkSafeBC - the worker's compensation and safety body for the province.

Because of that background he was able to get a pretty broad overview of negative interactions with bears, not only in hunting situations.

To be clear here I'm not trying to start a bladder pressure contest with anyone and there's a thousand roads to Mecca, but his books convinced me that buckshot in a shotgun was not a prudent option and that all slugs were not created equal for that matter.

Again if some of the gentle readers here have killed bears with Brand X buckshot, that's more than I have with buckshot from X or Y and like as not I'll not convince them it's not the Hammer of Thor for the task.

More or less where I'm at now as far as projectile choice, I'm looking for a minimum of 24" of straight penetration, then practicing enough to hit where I need to and praying the combo carried that day will be up to the task if needed.

Hopefully too, it goes without saying I'm praying even more fervently that I don't need to test out my theories on any of the increasing numbers of interior grizzlies popping up in our neighborhood.

All the best to you in 2024.

Dwayne

A study was done recently regarding the effectiveness of hand guns in stopping bear attacks. The results were surprising in that handguns were effective like 95% of the time! Even more surprising is caliber didn't seem to matter!
So ask yourself why?
As most things the devil is in the details. The majority of the handgun defense cases the bears weren't killed , simply convinced to find trouble elsewhere I would guess.
Another detail is the hand gun can be deployed at very close range, odds are you are going to get bit.
A rifle is a one and done deal usually. If the bear gets ahold of you the rifle likely cannot be deployed at that point, while the handgun can, keep pumping rounds into him!

irfubar;
Top of the morning to you Brother Fubar and an official Happy New Year from the still dark south Okanagan.

Thanks for your thoughts, I suspect you're not wrong in your theories.

Hopefully it goes without saying how much it galls me that the powers that be in Ottawa have such blatant disregard for the lives of citizens out west and up north that we're prevented from carrying the best tool for the job in order to survive some of the wild encounters.

In one of the James Gary Shelton books, he details the investigation of the killing of two BC hunters just out of Radium in the mid '90's. They'd killed a bull elk, were taking it apart and had two loaded rifles propped nearby if I'm not remembering wrong. The grizzly got the first fellow, then the second fellow's gun jammed I want to say and it got him too.

The CO's killed a sow and either one or two cubs on the kills, but locals and Shelton believed it was actually a bigger male who'd done the deed as there'd been reports of a big male bullying hunters off of their kills in that area for years. When a big male was killed - we could still hunt them then - the next spring, the problems with hunters went away.

In another case of how small the world can be, a good friend and hunting companion used to play rec volleyball with one of the deceased hunter's sister. She said he was not inexperienced by any definition by the way.

Having handled a carcass or three in reasonably tight quarters in bear country, I'd absolutely prefer something on my person in a chest rig rather than a long gun propped nearby. I mean just because I'm a Canuck doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid....

Necessarily being the key word there one might observe.

Best to you all in 2024, may neither of us need to use what we're packing on a recalcitrant bruin anytime soon.

Dwayne

Chuck Jonkel, a long-time bear biologist in western Montana, once killed a radio collared bear he was looking for and got accidentally too close. She came boiling over a log pile at him at close range. All he had was a fully loaded Colt Woodsman .22 pistol, and she dropped on his last shot through the eye into the brain. I never heard the size of the grizzly.

I wouldn't.
Dangerous game is potentially dangerous.
For that reason, I would think a little harder on it before taking a .270 unless it was heavily loaded with a mono or 160gn Partition and I still wouldn't, because there are better options without compromising on rifle characteristics.

Lots of fish are caught on a 4 pound line. Not ideal, but it works a lot of times. If you are in an area with bigger than fry pan sized fish, why would plan a disadvantage by not planning for success or worse, safety?

Simply put, the average IQ won't even cut his dinner with the smaller knife options. You use the easier choice by going larger. The metaphor doesn't change when its your dinner or a bears.

I recall reading a book, "Alaska Wilderness Hunter", by Harold "Zeke" Schetzel. If I recall correctly, he writes about a friend that carried a thumbhole .270 Win as his Grizz and Brown Bear stopping rifle because he was so proficient with it.



Frog---OUT!

Hello Dwayne,

Nice to meet you, sir. Thank you for your very kind wishes. 2024 so far has been quiet, but has already brought some small blessings.

I do have all three of Shelton’s books about bear attacks. I have read in backwards sequence. I ordered the books in used condition and I believe that his last book, “Bear Attacks II: Myth & Reality” was the first I received, so I read it first. Next, I read “Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth” - his second book. And now, I am reading his first work, “Bear Encounter Survival Guide”.

Beyond the tremendous value of Shelton’s experience and wisdom, the books are entertaining. Especially “The Deadly Truth”.

Because of “life”, I have been away from hunting for roughly 30 years and am making plans to hunt again as I am anticipating another life change fairly soon that will return some opportunity. My younger years, I hunted whitetail in Texas; three years, I hunted mule deer in western Colorado and loved hunting in the mountains. I hope my future will allow me to hunt elk in either Idaho or western Montana, maybe New Mexico. I am using my time now to learn and prepare, thus the interest in bear defense.

The most powerful chamberings in my rifle battery are .270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, and .308 Win. The .270 is my favorite. I optimistically hoped that a premium bullet such as Nosler Partition, A-Frame, Norma Oryx, or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw would be sufficient defense against a bear attack. The story I earlier posted changed my mind.

In a different thread, I saw Mule Deer (John) post that he would want something more substantial in bear country. I now appreciate John’s perspective.

My gosh, this means that I will need another gun. What a pity!

Will an either .35 Whelen or a 9.3x62 do the trick?

Thanks for mentioning that Shelton is deceased. Seeing that his first book was published 30 years ago, I wondered if he were still around.


This 1995 story is documented in “The Deadly Truth”, chapter 10 - Without Warning”, 56 pages extensively telling the story of Shane Fumerton and Bill Caspel, including details from many sources, as you noted about Shelton’s writing. Definitely worth a read!


Amen. Wholly agreed (not the Canuck part!). Probably a 44 Mag, however, I would prefer a 10mm - but only if it is more than powerful enough to stop a charging grizzly with one, possibly two, hits.

Again, thank you for your thoughts and your kind words.

Forrest
(Hopefully smarter than Forrest Gump, but sadly not as wealthy)

Well.... I don't own a .44 Mag. I am also a believer that the big bears can abush a hunter very quickly as fast as they are. There is probably time for one shot maybe two at the most. One must place the shot accurately no matter the caliber. Perhaps, if the recoil is too great, he/she will flinch and miss. I believe there are enough stories here(including my own) that show calibers less than .375, .416, .458 do penetrate and kill effectively. However, ALL these calibers must have good shot placement. In my youth, over fifty three years ago I killed a grizzly in the Yukon with a .270 Win using a 130gr Nosler Partition. It penetrated very well at seventy or so yards. It would have penetrated at ten yards. Phil Shoemaker has told us the .270 kills just as fast as any other cartridge with good shot placement. Screw up a shot with a .458 Win Mag..... you've got one hell of a mess. Perhaps the hunter will now be referred to as Claude Balls. If the hunter is ambushed by Mr. Brown Bear, who said he will have time to shoot regardless of the caliber of the weapon he is carrying?

roanmtn;
Good morning to you sir from the still dark and finally snow covered part of BC, I hope you all out east are well, warm and dry.

Hopefully I can be forgiven for sharing another BC hunting story, this one told to me by a very good friend, taking place before the powers that be in Victoria lost their collective mind and banned all grizzly hunting in BC.

If I'm not remembering wrong this would have taken place in the 90's as my friend had drawn a LEH tag for spring grizzly in the Kootenays. His brother in law from Seattle wanted to accompany him on a bear hunt, so off they went. They were part way up the Lardeau River Valley which is stunningly pretty country with the Purcells on one side and the Selkirks on the other. Overall it's fairly steep country too might I add.

They were working the bottom of an avalanche chute where the grizzly bears like to dig for animals caught in the snow slides when they spotted what he termed "a little fart of a grizzly, maybe 5' or so". As they glassed the bear which was several hundred yards away, it suddenly stood up on it's hind legs, began to sniff the air, then dropped down and began running at full tilt down towards them.

The brother in law asked my friend, "Hey it that normal?" to which my friend said he replied, "Not so far"..

There was a fairly big draw below them into which the bear disappeared, but also there was a smaller draw which ran off to one side and behind the two men.

My friend said they were both watching below them intently for what seemed to him to be next to forever, when for reasons he couldn't explain, something made him look behind them towards the smaller draw.

There, crouched down like a cat stalking a bird, was the young grizzly and as it cleared a Doug Fir stump, my friend shot it in the head.

I asked "How close was it?" and he pointed to the front door knob of our house which was about 24' from where he was sitting in our living room by the woodstove.

When I made some comment about how close that all was, he replied, "Yah, the funny thing was Dwayne, I dropped my lighter I don't know how many times when I tried to have a smoke afterward."

As to what rifle, its a 7mm Mag. in a Weatherby Vanguard and if I know him, it'd be a 140gr bullet but the bullet weight is a guess.

He had that grizzly hide rugged up and gave it to the brother in law as a little memento of his first BC grizzly hunt.

Thanks for reading and all the best.

Dwayne


This is from this past hunting season where we cut the tracks of 3 different grizzly still out on a bitterly cold day. That folding boning knife is an honest 8½" for scale. We tracked 2 of them for more than 5km on a logging road, finally loosing the tracks at an appropriately named mountain lake - Bear Lake...

It's not quite that simple.

Phil prefers to guide hunters who bring a .270 or .30-06 (or similarly chambered rifle) they can shoot well rather than a rifle chambered for a more powerful cartridge they can't shoot well. But he prefers larger cartridges to clean up the mess caused by poor shot placement--and while he knows the .30-06 can since he's used it a lot, prefers to carry rifles chambered for larger cartridges when backing up clients.

His favorite is the .458 Winchester Magnum, because even a less-than-perfect hit on a charging bear will usually stop the bear long enough to get another shot in. Lesser cartridges don't do that as reliably--and larger cartridges kick too hard for the shooter to recover from recoil and get another shot off quickly.

BC30Cal, I just bought all 3 of Mr. Shelton’s books for my Kindle app on my phone. Thanks for the recommendation Dwayne!
Respectfully,

Ron

I'd like to know how Phil does it, because my recovery time between shots with a .458 or fully stoked .416 is noticeably slower than with the .375 or 9.3. And that's very correct, shooting a grumpy one at 10 yards is just as much about changing his mind immediately as it is about killing him.

Mule Deer;
Good morning and Happy New Year to you and Eileen, I hope you're both warm, well and dry this morning.

We got the second snowfall of the winter last night - first of the year - and I'm just part way out the door to plug in the tractor and deal with it.

Thanks for the thoughts on hunting clients and what they show up with.

If I'm not wrong you've written similar thoughts from back in the days when you were guiding and I know that in talking with the local guides and outfitters, the very last thing they wanted to see was a client show up with a shiny new whizbang ultra mag that they were unfamiliar with.

Locally here it was mostly a case of a missed ram, buck or black bear, but we did have one American hunter end up shooting a grizzly that was stalking the guide and him. That was years back, maybe in the mid '90's if I'm remembering right now. In that instance the hunter did good work with his chosen arm and dropped the grizzly with a single shot. The CO's did the investigation and it was all good, but since it was a defense shooting the hide and head couldn't be kept.

Anyways mostly I wanted to send best wishes to you and Eileen for a good 2024.

I'd better get out there and move some white stuff.

Dwayne

I didn't say Phil recovered from .458 recoil as quickly as with a smaller round. He said that for him the .458 provides the best balance between "stopping power" and recoil recovery.

Another part of that equation is that Phil is a very big man. Not everyone would recover from the .458 the same as he does. The math for me (5’8”/165) might be different.