Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Captain Thomas Weir, 7th Cavalry

You’ve hit on the exact reasons I love threads like this.
We have Shrapnel for the LBH, Birdy and Kaywoodie for The Alamo and Texas Revolution, and probably a half dozen or more for Civil War and other stuff.
I consider myself to be very well read on American History, but I am constantly learning more about it from members of this board!
Reon

Excellent thread , Reon.

In answer to your other remark regarding The Battle Of The Rosebud, id say you’re spot on.
You can’t really look at Custer and LBH without understanding what happened on The Rosebud.
Custer, and most other officers had spent the 10 post civil war years chasing Indians who almost never stood to a pitched battle, and were damn near impossible to corral.
Pitched battles got members of the tribe killed, usually with nothing gained for them. They knew this, and so avoided a pitched fight.
Other than a few exceptions, where they had the upper hand, the Indians ran off.
Custer knew and expected the Sioux and Cheyenne to cut and run, which is why he split up the regiment. He was trying to at least capture enough Indians to convince the others to head back to the reservations.
Maybe had he known about Crook at the Rosebud, he would have approached this unprecedented size village differently. Sitting Bulls camp was probably 4 times bigger than any Army officer had ever seen before.
The Crow and Ree scouts knew this, but the officers of the 7th never realized until it was too late.
I believe it was General Miles who remarked that knowing what he did about Indian fighting he could find no fault in Custer’s handling of the fight.
Reon

After the Civil War, because of his war record, flowing golden locks and the fancy clothes he wore, Custer was a celebrity. There was even talk of him being a presidential candidate. At the victory parade in NYC, while riding a magnificent steed he had requisitioned from a reb, he had paid a lad to toss out a fluttering piece of newspaper in front of his horse. His horse and rearing, George masterfully controlled his horse.

It appears he loved the adulation He had entourage like a rock star, even to the point of bring his own journalist to report to the eager readers back east of his heroic exploits.

While at the summit of the Wolf Mountains in the early morning hours, it was reported that some Indians were seen breaking into paneers that had fallen off a pack horse.

He feared that these Indians would alert the main tribe and the Indians would flee. Hence, rather than wait a day and prepare, he started for the village, not knowing the number of warriors, weapons they had, the topography or even exactly where the village was. He ordered Bentsen to the south to block what he thought may be a fleeing tribe.

To not move at that time against the tribe, may have allowed Terry, Miles or Crook to be the heroes in bring the hostile to their knees and back on the rez.

The lone teepee was not burning, Custer’s scouts did that. Finding a dead Indian in a teepee that was still set up in an area that indicated a camp movement, would not indicate any previous conflict, certainly not with Crook.

Custer would not have gone far enough down the Rosebud to detect the lack of Crook or his conflict with Crazy Horse. I am sure Custer still expected Crook’s assistance, but his focus on the Indian encampment was his priority. Remember, that by this time his scouts had found that Indians had already discovered Custer’s presence when they found the Indians going through a lost pack on the trail.

These circumstances all contributed to Custer’s decision to attack the village on the 25th instead of the 26th as originally planned.

This picture is of the bluffs above the site of the lone teepee. I consider this the real beginning of the battle. It is at this site where Gerard first saw about 20 Indians that came out of a coulee mounted and heading towards the Little Bighorn River.

It is here that Custer sent Reno down Reno Creek to the Little Bighorn to strike the village from the south. It is argued as to the location of the lone teepee, and our conclusion is this is the correct location. The Park places the site at the location where the North Fork of Reno Creek meets the Middle Fork. Why, I don’t understand, because the testimonials of the participants of the battle describe the area near the white bluffs over 20 minutes or several miles from the Little Bighorn River…

Jim;
Good evening, I hope that you and your fine family are well, warm and dry tonight.

I hope also it's warming up enough that calving won't be an issue if you all do spring calving like most of the ranchers in our part of the world do.

Under the heading of it might not matter to anyone other than the Canucks here, but after the battle Sitting Bull and somewhere either way of 200 mostly Sioux crossed the medicine line pretty much north of Sam and settled near Wood Mountain, SK.

Being as that Canada was only 9 years old at the time, had just managed to get the NWMP set up and somewhat operating for 3 years, it was an interesting situation for the young country and it's new national police force to deal with.

We should be clear too that Sitting Bull and crew were not welcome up there by any of the other First Nations folks as the Sioux, Blackfoot Confederacy and Cree/Metis all vied for the same buffalo grounds, repeatedly showing they'd kill for possession of it.

The Sioux were granted a Federal Reserve east of there in southern Manitoba later on in 1876, the Oak River Reserve, which now goes by Sioux Valley Dakota Nations who claim 2500 members today.

The Canadian government had to contend with feeding the Sioux, maintaining peace between them and the FN folks who were already there and the ever increasing flow of settlers up here too.

Sometimes the government and the NWMP succeeded and sometimes failed. One of the better early NWMP leaders, Supt. James Walsh was peeved enough with how Ottawa handled the situation with Sitting Bull that he quit over it.

Obviously too, the Canadian government giving safe haven to Sitting Bull and company caused lots of tensions between Washington DC and Ottawa.

Anyways there was that going on too Jim.

All the best to you all.

Dwayne

Is the whereabouts of that table known today?

So they rode young cows?

Let's see the rest of it? Are you enrolled in a tribe? Do you avail yourself to the ability to use IHS?

Thanks everyone.

This has been very informative and enjoyable.

I am enrolled in a tribe. What is it about IHS you want to know?

IHS is pretty good out here.

I don’t know about IHS, but I do know that wherever I go, I have a reservation…

Sure...at Golden Corral.

Just curious if you use IHS for your health care. Mosr folks in Alaska of indigenous descent use it as it is free. Not too many BIA cards up here now. Most have tribal IDs. Do you?
Enjoying the Custer discussion. Read a book some years ago, The Stand, was the title. Fairly detailed account.

Can you get us some cheese 😂😂😂.

Many times it has been said that Custer disobeyed orders. At Reno’s Court Of Inquiry in January, 1879, Reno was trying to clear his tarnished name due to his actions at the Little Bighorn. This is 2 1/2 years after the battle, which also conveniently past the time when Reno could have been Court Martialed for those actions.

It was said at that hearing that Custer had disobeyed orders, here they are. Nothing in those orders were condemning Custer and his subsequent actions…


TERRY'S WRITTEN ORDERS TO CUSTER
June 22, 1876

The following is the written orders Brig. General Alfred E. Terry ordered to be written on the morning of June 22, 1876. Since the diastrous defeat of George Custer at the Little Big Horn, these instructions have been at the center of an ongoing debate as to whether or not Custer disobeyed Terry's orders. In a not so confidential letter to Generals Sherman and Sheridan after the battle, Terry inferred that Custer had indeed disobeyed his orders.

These orders were written hours before Gen. Custer departed on his last campaign. The previous evening there had been a meeting of General Terry, Colonel John Gibbon, Major James Brisbin, and Custer on the steamboat, Far West. The purpose of the meeting was to develop a plan of attack against hostile Sioux known to be in the Rosebud - Little Big Horn Region.

The following text is reproduced from page 462 of the Annual Report of the Secretary of War for 1876, which is House Executive Document 1 for the second session of the Forty-fourth Congress (Serial volume 1742).

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Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field)
Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876

Lieutenant-Colonel Custer,
7th Calvary

Colonel: The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank.

The column of Colonel Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly inclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's command.

The supply-steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks of the river is found to be navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the mean time you receive further orders.

Very respectfully, Your obedient servant,
E. W. Smith, Captain, 18th Infantry A. A. J. G.

K.huntz go find ur cheese hat wtf man

I think too many fall back on the idea that because Indians had found a pack mule they would know Custer was there. After any pitched battle, there were plenty of lost animals and stolen animals that then got away from both sides. Sometimes just traveling those miles long military caravans would lose animals.

Short of actually seeing Custers full troop or a large portion there of, it seems at that time finding that pack animal would have not meant anything special to the Indians being the battle with Crook southeast of there was only what, 8 days before?

Were the Indians from any distance able to see part of the 7th cavalry I again think they would have thought it part of Crooks command, as has been said here they made that assumption when the upper end of the village was struck first. They’d fought Crook to a standstill, that attitude may have played a big part. Who knows?

I’ve been often over on the Rosebud battle sight. Looking at the terrain and searching thru the recorded events of the day Crook made some incredibly questionable moves. Thanks to the independent way Indians fought he got away better than one would expect. It is hard however to see those battles in real light being no one alive has had to fight a battle with the same speed, equipment, horsepower, communications and manpower shortcomings of that time.

It’s obvious Custer made the ultimate blunders at LBH but I totally agree with Shrap… in what was the deal with Crook? Whose butt was his nose buried in? He knew the plan, knew the dates of the expected involvement with the hostiles and what his part was to be on those dates yet there he sat down near Goose creek hunting and fishing?
Crook had a command twice the size of Custer with nearly 1000 troopers plus civilians plus appreciable numbers of Indian scouts. The Rosebud battle that sent Crook into fishing, I mean hiding, same difference cost maybe 20 some troopers dead and double that wounded. 3% casualties took a force of over 1200 out of the field? Scurvey and rot foot did more damage.
No court martial, public inquiry of any consequence? The guy was either some big shots Sally or because the way things turned out at the LBH did the supreme powers want to use Custers demise as the final rallying cry to the American people that Indians must be done away with? Of course. I believe the “massacre” happened at just the right point for political advantage and holding Crook accountable would have been a distraction taking some of the flavor out of the dish so to speak. Crooks non participation in the culmination of that campaign is inexcusable.

Osky

Good thread. Thanks Shrap! I stay out of the LBH stuff. I know extremely little about it.

Suppose it’s a regional thing. Never really got into it. Here all the reading I’ve done is on Ranald McKenzie. While a yankee (said in jest). A very successful "Indian" fighter in his own right. Spend last weekend doing a living history event at Ft. McKavett. The staff is prepping 2024 for the sesquicentennial of the Comanche campaign.

Please continue. Very informative thread!!!