Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Red Dot Sights On Pistols: Ken Hakathorn

I've got my fireproof suit on.

i've watched it before. He's right, of course. Red dots ARE useful, IF you practice hard with them, and use them exclusively for a good while. If you can't do that, they're not very useful to the average guy.

I haven’t converted to them yet. I’ve tried them in stores but it takes me a bit to find the dots. The SRO seems to be the easiest. I’m sure I have horrible form but I get what he’s saying.

I was disappointed initially with my first dot on a pistol. It took sitting home sick for a of couple days and spending a lot of time on dry fire drills for it to click for me.

Hackathorn summed it up with his comments on spending your whole shooting life conditioned to thinking front sight, front sight. As soon as I realized that a dot was a lot more like traditional archery, and similar to shooting clays with a shotgun. That it requires full focus on the target while letting the hands naturally bring the gun up the dot started to “magically” appear plastered over where I was pointing. As soon as I came to that realization it started to fall into place.

A lot depends on individual eyesight to. I’ve always had an astigmatism but otherwise had excellent eyesight. It’s gradually gone downhill starting in my late 20’s. I’m in my late 40’s now my vision isn’t great anymore. Even with the astigmatism a small dot set to a low setting makes range shooting more fun. A lot of shooters like a larger dot but a large dot blooms too much for me.

Figuring out the dot size that works for your eyes is key just like with irons maybe more so with a dot if you have an astigmatism. I like taller irons with a narrow front post and a wide rear notch for a cleaner sight picture and getting on target faster. I was a lot less particular when I was 20 or 30 years old.
Dots are great on range pistols for plinking. They extend your range by a lot and make quickly plastering a dot over the target and shooting it simple and fun.

Both of my primary carry pistols have dots. A Sig 365 XMacro and a Glock 19X that I had milled for a Trijicon. I’m still not sold on the dots on carry guns being an advantage over good night sights at typical defensive ranges but I don’t see a disadvantage at those ranges either. The biggest pro to me is being able to easily see that dot with my glasses on or off under any conditions albeit with some bloom and being able to focus on the target. The biggest drawback is not being able to look down slide and acquire the dot in the same way that I can with irons. Obviously you shouldn’t be doing that as a practice but it’s reassuring to know that I could if I had to with irons Vs. the possibility of momentarily loosing the dot in an extreme high stress situation.

I’m faster with the dot. There’s a definite learning curve to them but once you learn to present the pistol with that dot sitting on the target ready for you to shoot with everything all in one focal plane it’s cool stuff.

Haven’t you posted this before?

The answer is still the same. Dots rule if you put in the work to learn them. If you want to die clinging to irons then do it.

I’ve said this before but I’ll repeat it again. I have a friend who teaches a red dot course for his LE department. Middle of first day he gets a few guys saying the same thing, I like irons, dots suck. By the end of the 2 day course, every person has switched to dots.

Dots rule, case closed

People who obtained their weapon theory training from 1st person shooter video games, want red dots on pistols.

It baffles me how people claim they can't use a dot.

Even if you're struggling, just start to line up the iron sights, and when the dot appears, switch to the dot. You'll only be fractionally slower than a guy who can get the dot off the draw, and you'll be waayyy faster than a guy using only irons.

Anybody who says they "can't" use a dot just doesn't want to.

I am just worried that a high atmospheric EMP will take out the dots

Well, that's a valid concern, but...that's why you keep the iron sights on as back up!

" Way faster than a guy using irons" is a subjective and frankly ignorant statement. If talking about center punching a 4 inch circle at 25 yards or more, probably, if the shooter is adept with a dot. If your talking about doing the same at tens yards, your simply full of [bleep].
Ive used several different variations of red dot optics since 1991 in revolver competition, which I did for over 25 years, shooting many hundreds of thousands of rounds, so I indeed know my way around a red dot. I still compete, but only at local level now, Steel challenge and NRA action shooting. I have C-More RTS 2s on both my revolvers, love them and could not shoot matches as well without them. My carry guns, different story, strictly iron sights on anything I have in the vehicle or on my side, and for exactly the reasons Hackathorn observed. Your mileage may vary, use what you like, but don't pizz down my leg and tell me it's raining.

As Hackathorn observed (which you'd know if you'd actually watched), those who train heavily with a red dot on their handguns will not instantly switch to their irons when the dot disappears. Their minds are conditioned to look for the dot and, in an emergency, that's exactly what they will do when it goes off, i.e., bob their heads around looking for it.

I like dots and irons.
Shoot both well.

Put the time in with your gun whatever it is.

Just for the record I think that Hackathorn is right, after 50 years of using iron sights my brain does not even think when I align the iron sights. Does anyone here shoot a 22 LR better than a 9mm and shoot it better longer? At some point getting tired or anticipating recoil does more to harm my shooting than does my sight alignment, and I guess this might apply to red dots as well?? At 15 yards with most 9mm pistols I am just pie plate average when firing 4-5 rounds in fairly rapid succession, so I do not claim to be Wild Bill. I am also a one percenter these days, shooting once or twice a month. One thing is for certain, its a perishable skill no matter what type of sights you use. The anticipating recoil thing is I think one of the reasons the 5.7 x 28 is regaining popularity with the discovery it has little to no recoil yet is an extremely fast fight stopper with the right bullets, so many just shoot the thing better. I don't think its all just about sight alignment or the type of sight you use.

A lot of his argument seems predicated on having "mastered" iron sights already. OK, maybe I'll give you that if you've been staring at that front sight for 50 years you should just ride out the last years of your life the same way.

He also argues that the non 1%er, couple hundred rounds a year guys will never learn the dot. One could argue they never had a firm grasp on open sights either as a casual plinker.

Didn't hear anything addressing starting out with a dot. New handgun shooters everyday. Starting out with a dot and nothing to unlearn in regards to irons acquisition seems like a no brainer.

TLDR: old guy no learn new tricks, so neither should you.

I think he did address that and that makes sense...bob

First, I did watch the video. To say that I would "know" something based on what Hackathorn said, presupposes he's right. He's not right. He's biased and dishonest.

Second, how people respond to a red dot malfunction is an issue related to training, not an issue related to the viability of dots. For example, how do those same people respond when their iron sights malfunction? If they react poorly, does that make iron sights "bad?"

Third, dots at 10 yds are faster and more accurate than irons--even though The Hack says I'm on crack for daring to disagree with him. To use iron sights, you must align 3 things (rear, front, target) in different planes, and as you get older, one or two of them is going to be blurry. Keeping irons aligned is harder than most will admit.

Whereas to shoot a dot, you only align 2 things (dot and target) in the same plane (you only need your far vision, not both near and far). There's no need to keep anything aligned. Fewer and easier steps makes shooters faster and more accurate.

Lastly, I'm not a gifted pistol shooter, average to slightly better than average. But I know this: Learning to shoot a dot is far from sorcery, and the benefits are obvious.

OK, What's the SOP when carrying for self defense while using a RD?

Leave it on.

What about night stand? Leave it on?

Practice turning it on like really quick?

Or if ya don't have time to turn it on just go without it?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but have wondered. Well I just answered one, the nightstand gun could be served with one that has a motion switch. Otherwise, just keep a pile of batteries on hand?

With modern electronics and batteries, red dot sights are generally left on all the time (on guns you want to be ready to use at any moment), and the battery is replaced periodically, like once a year. Guns in your safe that have them would obviously be left off, and likely with no batteries in them.