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Originally Posted by plumbum
Originally Posted by hardway
No one has said Unions yet or Global warming 👍🏻

Or any ex wives or girlfriends.

Was this near a walmart or golden corral?

Travis Kelce got pissed and bumped into it.



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Geeze, it was a sudden and total failure. Had nothing to do with rebar placement or concrete mix. Had it have been either of those two you'd have been able to see gradual damage resulting in the rebar rusting... you can see in the photo, that the concrete adhered to the rebar just fine and with no gradual cracking.

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Almost certainly a combination of factors.

If you skip to the blue collar end of things and ignore bad engineering etc. it comes down to the oft mentioned mix, most critical is the amount of water and when it was added.

I see no obvious signs of a cold joint.

Rebar looks good but the covering concrete looks substantially too thin, usually youre held to a "window" of acceptable placement, sometimes it just flat tells you "2" clearance to form". It is almost unheard of for the concrete to be spec'd at < 1-1/2" space from outside surface of outmost steel, to innermost surface of form This steel looks to be #8 vert with #5 stirrups and those stirrups are not covered by much grey stuff from what I can see.

The steel did not fail you could argue it is still doing fine even now.

Im guessing the stirrups were made off site and made a bit wrong, the illegal aliens hung it even though it was too close to the forms. Without seeing the off side steel. It is possible the steel was just not centered in the column.

Many a slip tween the footer layout and the wall layout maybe the footer steel being off made it desirable for simplicity sake to have the pilaster steel off centre.

Any idiot can layout a building it takes skill to lay it out twice precisely the same.


I'm betting bad mud and steel not covered by enough of it.

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LOL, you can distinguish "gradual cracking" that was present before the failure from cracks resulting from the sudden failure in that photo?

Do tell.



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Yes fool, all that cracking occurred at the same time. If you'd ever worked with concrete, you'd know what a bad mix looks like after just a short time.

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Gheyghost is a concrete expurt?

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Originally Posted by Greyghost
Yes fool, all that cracking occurred at the same time. If you'd ever worked with concrete, you'd know what a bad mix looks like after just a short time.

LOL, bullsh*t. A skilled inspector might be able to distinguish between the two in person.


You're neither a skilled inspector, nor there in person.



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Every bridge I worked on had qc'ed mud before it ever hit the ground.


Originally Posted by BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by funshooter
I was told many years ago from an Engineer that the Concrete in structures is calculated as negative strength.

All of the strength comes from the reinforcing steel and the concrete just keeps the reinforcing steel in place.

This may be true for tensile strength, but it's not true for compressive strength. Concrete has excellent compressive strength but it lacks tensile strength. That's why pre-cast horizontal beams have all the re-bar at the bottom of the beam. When a horizontal beam flexes under a load, the top of the beam is under compression and the bottom is under tension and that's where the steel is needed.

Axis of orientation bears on this. We were doing a concrete building in California for the horizontal structural beams the rebar was tensioned before the pour. After the concrete had set the rebar was cut off leaving the concrete under compression. Of course this doesn't apply to the OPs photo.
Interesting. I did not know you could tension rebar. I knew cables were pre tensioned.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by OldmanoftheSea
Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by funshooter
I was told many years ago from an Engineer that the Concrete in structures is calculated as negative strength.

All of the strength comes from the reinforcing steel and the concrete just keeps the reinforcing steel in place.

This may be true for tensile strength, but it's not true for compressive strength. Concrete has excellent compressive strength but it lacks tensile strength. That's why pre-cast horizontal beams have all the re-bar at the bottom of the beam. When a horizontal beam flexes under a load, the top of the beam is under compression and the bottom is under tension and that's where the steel is needed.

Axis of orientation bears on this. We were doing a concrete building in California for the horizontal structural beams the rebar was tensioned before the pour. After the concrete had set the rebar was cut off leaving the concrete under compression. Of course this doesn't apply to the OPs photo.
Interesting. I did not know you could tension rebar. I knew cables were pre tensioned.


They do not used the Pretension cables as much as they use the Post Tension these days to my knowledge.

Most Post Tension cables are what they call non bonded.
They are in a greased sleeve that allows the cable to move with in the concrete a live loads change

They also use them where they have unstable ground and want to pull the concrete together to stabilize the concrete
(1) 1/2 inch cable from what I have been told equals a #11 bar that is a 1 1/8 inch bar,
Kinda crazy what technology can do.

I worked in an 6 level underground parking structure in down town Lost Angeles years ago shoring up damaged Columns with Steel Beams (the columns had small fractures non like the pic in the original post created by the North Ridge Quake) as the welders would get set up for the day I would walk around looking at stuff.
The walls to the underground structure had up to an 1 1/2 inch gap between the floors.
Now this was an underground Structure with the dirt pressing against the walls.

Then I noticed spawled out concrete concrete in the floor support beams overhead with rusted , very rusted bonded cables these are cables with out the greased sleeves they are like rebar that is connected directly to the concrete.

I would talk to my boss every day and I told him what I seen when walking around.
He came out to the project and I walked him around the project and pointed out what i found.

He was shocked as none of the Engineers mentioned anything about the Beams just the Columns.

He then asked what I thought should be done to fix the issues.
I told him that I was very happy that I was only the Welding Inspector on the project and that I did not have the License to do Concrete in the jurisdiction and that I did not have my Pre Tention/ Post Tension Certification.

He just looked at me funny.

Well they shut the project down for further investigation of the project.
Do not know if and when they ever started the project back up.


I am just happy that I was never called back on that project. It is a liability trap project for anyone involved.

Earthquakes can do strange things to structures.
The Engineers engineer building to with stand Earthquakes just long enough to get people to safety.

There is no such thing as an Earthquake Proof Structure

It looks to me that the Column in the 1st pic did what it needed to do.

It did fail but the structure did not collapses 100%.

They put a lot more Horizontal ties in these days that the use to do to hold the Columns together better when thing get to moving when they are not supposed to be moving.

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Campfire 'Bwana
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I really think that we should consider the possibility that ethanol mix and a FRAM filter were used with the vibrator motor.


Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

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Originally Posted by funshooter
[quote=CashisKing][quote=funshooter]For 20 some odd years now they have had a 50 story building approved for construction all reinforcing steel and concrete No steel beams in Lost Angeles but they need to get the Concrete strengths up for the task.

I worked at a Lab that was trying to get concrete designs up to 50,000 psi.
The lab I worked at was able to create mix designs up to 30,000 psi with steel needles and fibermesh and the owner of that lab told me no one working on these designs could break the 30k with steady results.
This Lab closed it doors and the owner retired.
That was a Great loss for the industry.

That owner taught me a lot about concrete.[/quot

I love what I do because there is always something that comes up that I have never seen and I get the personal guided tours into company's that do not allow anyone in.

I am getting driven out of the industry by book smart desk Inspectors that know very little about what they are inspecting.

Most of what I know for my job did not come from a book it came from personal experience of doing and seeing not reading.

Sad to watch an industry collapse around you as more and more stupid people get the jobs as a stepping stone carrier over the ones that actually know the job , Love the job and live the job.

And that is happening in every industry , every job is more based on Book knowledge , all of our hands on. knowledge is dieing when we do. pass your knowledge on to your kids and grandkids. so that they can survive in our NEW world , control and complyance is every where and the elite uses it to control everything.

Norm


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Originally Posted by earlybrd
Gheyghost is a concrete expurt?
Is there a subject in which he is not an expert?

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Obviously caused by climate change.

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Winner "Chicken Dinner" to those above who said this wasn't a "failure."


You can no more tell someone how to do something you've never done, than you can come back from somewhere you've never been...
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