Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles LPVO or red dot for general purpose and SHTF truck gun

What are you running, and what advantages does your choice have over the other?

Debating replacing my MRO with a LPVO.

Except for better target ID, is there an advantage in real terms for a SHTF truck gun?

Went to Thunder Ranch a while back wit the Mrs. She was running a red dot, me an LPVO. Hit percentages were pretty close out to 300 yards.

LVPO, hands down for me.

I prefer that over any red dot except for very quick shooting under 50 yds.

Usually, 1-6x. Better precision, better target ID.

Dot with horseshoe illuminated reticle is still fast & good at closer ranges too.

MM

MM,

At what range do you zero your LPVO?

I use both but my “truck gun” wears a Sig Romeo5 red dot in an ADM mount because of cost. My LPV mounts cost more than the Romeo5 even in the ADM mount. I have a couple of these and they have proven to be reliable. Of course I have fixed irons too.

I can use these for CM hits out to 300 yards when zeroed at 50 yards. The whole rig is light and handy and I don’t mind leaving it locked up in the truck just in case I’m ever stuck in a “mostly peaceful protest”.

But if it weren’t for the possibility of it getting stolen while stashed in the truck, I’d grab a better gun with a LPVO, probably one with my Trijicon 1-6 but I’m confident in my Trijicon 1-4’s too.

100 yds.

MM

RD for me. Aimpoint.
Quick shooting under 50, but you can stretch it to 200, or more. Longer ranges require a bit more time to aim -- enough time to flip the magnifier.

LPVO for me. When shooting generous targets at known distances there's not much difference in dot and LPVOs. But I've been teaching quite a few LPVO classes and some guys show up with dots and magnifiers. As soon as the shooting gets more aggressive and shots get more difficult the LPVOs very noticeably pull away from the pack.

With an actual crosshair reticle you won't be dependent on batteries.
The advantages of target ID are substantial when you're talking about shooting at people.
A good reticle will make longer shots easier.

A magnifier has a couple of drawbacks.
-They either hang off the side or you have to go 2.26 high with a Unity FTC mount.
-You're limited to either 3x (not always enough) or 5x (too much for a lot of what you'd use magnification for)
-The eye relief and eye box on them is not as forgiving as an LPVO

IMO the advantages an LPVO offers outside 50 yards outweigh the advantages a dot offers inside 50ish yards. And even inside 50 yards there are times when magnification could be pretty doggone useful.

I prefer an LPVO for most purposes. A good LPVO with with true 1X and daylight bright illumination is barely slower than a dot at close quarters and for longer shots is much better. For a rifle to be used indoors or very close quarters only, maybe a dot is a little quicker but not much. And if batteries go out, the dot is useless, which is not true of an LPVO since you still have a reticle.

Pretty much covers it.

Tube-type red dots block part of your view, and open ones seem too fragile. Looking through a good LPVO at 1x is almost like just looking down a bare rifle.

What are you guys using for your LVPO?

Ceedo HX 1-6, Credo 1-4

That swfa 1-6x in the classifieds would be a solid choice

I have the SWFA, and to my eyes is not daylight bright.

No clue what all that alphabet soup stands for.

We normalized on all defense guns the Burris AR-332

The LPVO's I use most are a Vortex Razor 1-6x24 Gen 2 E on an 18 inch AR and a couple of Steiner 1-4x P4xi's on 16 inchers. These are on rifles I shoot in matches but the 16 inchers could also serve well as self defense rifles. These scopes have daylight bright illumination.

I also have a 1-4x SWFA which is not daylight bright. It's a pretty decent scope though, and I got it for $199 with rings so I can't complain. I have it on a 14.5 BCM upper right now but might put another optic on the upper.

I zero these rifles at 200 yards which puts them about dead on at 50 yards too.

My current favorite is a FFP 1-8 credo, the 1 power illuminated reticle is bright and fast, the 8 x reticle center is about 1MOA or covers a 1 inch red target center at 100 yds. I had an accupoint that was changing POI when I changed power, sent it in and they sent me a new creddo 1-8. Good company.

RDS. If I couldn't keep both eyes open a larger tube might seem better. With both eyes open tube diameter is irrelevant. I don't "see" (look at/focus on) the tube any more than I "see" a ghost ring.

Micros offer size and weight savings over larger RDS and any LPVO. Have a LPVO on a HK91 - seems an appropriate match. But am nowhere near as fast as with a RDS and binocular vision.

All a matter of what works. Needs differ.

Only time I ever even turned that on, was when I was taking pics of it to sell.

I like a 3X prism on a general utility AR. I think I've got five uppers set up with them, from 1X, 3X, and 5X.

The 3X is a useful zoom, but still has an easy eyebox, and plenty of eye relief.

This is the 3X micro prism from Primary Arms. The ACSS 5.56/308 reticle is there even without a battery in it, and has holdoffs out to 600 yards.



They come in a few different reticles and colors.

https://www.primaryarms.com/rifle-scopes/with-acss/magnification/3x


This is the larger 3X prism,

Sam, curious what you do with the HK91. I picked one up a few months ago that appears to have not been fired.

A good LPVO is quite a bit better in low light.

Enough to matter in my opinion.

I guess it all depends on where your truck is. Middle of no where WY or MT, definitely would want a low power variable. More urban settings, I want a holograph/red dot.
My current SBR has a Holosun 510 with a 2MOA dot and 65MOA circle. For up close, put the target in the circle and pull the trigger.

Lotta truth to that.

The AR I use the the most these days has a 3-9x on it. I do wish it went lower on the power though

I’ve used a Steiner P4xi and they’re very good.

The Accupoints have excellent glass and I’d like to try a red triangle 1-4 on a patrol gun.

I have a Credo (HX?) 1-6 with the Hunter BDC reticle and IMO they’re the real sleeper in the LPVO market. Excellent glass, daylight bright, and drop proof.

I also have an Eotech Vudu 1-8 that’s excellent.

____________

FFP in a 1-4 or 1-6 are dumb and dear useless for close stuff.

At 1-8 I’d consider FFP depending on the reticle and availability of an offset dot.

I’ve got the same Credo HX 1-6 with BDC and it is my favorite LPVO does everything one could ask of a 1-6 in a GP carbine. The 1-4 Accupoint should be a darling out to 300 yards.

But I still favor my red dots for SHTF truck gun. More specific my 11.5” Colt with my H2 Aimpoint on it. But when I think of truck gun, that’s one that lives in the truck for emergencies and has the cheaper Romeo5 on it. My Colt/H2 stays locked up in my safe.

Everyone has their likes & preferences, but for me, I want versatility in a SHTF truck gun, so I want either a 14.5" or a 16" rifle with an LVPO.

There is really only one scenario that a red dot / holo sight does things better than the scope & that is up close & the scope is nearly as good, at least for me.

All other scenarios, the scope has a pretty distinct advantge............but that's just my thinking.

Like I said, everyone has preferences & that's why there are options.

MM

Nice, clean 91.

Shot mine awhile with a Z4 in a claw mount, but switched to a SWFA 1-4x on B&T rail. Got a trigger pack from Bill Springfield. Added a cheek riser.

Load 155 gr SMKs and get at or just over 1" at 100 yds. Ball is more like 2-3". Local range goes out to 400m for steel or paper. That's alot farther than we can shoot deer, ME cover such as it is.

For those with a DOT - you all basically in a PA/Aimpoint thought or any love for EOTECH?

If the conversation is drifting towards what would I leave in my truck. My buddy brought me a bunch of PSA parts with some cheap upper they make, an anderson lower IIRc and we put together a lower and the gun for him, I have no idea what he paid for the parts, but he is a thrifty man, we have shot it twice now and it works fine, I steered him towards slip 2000 and he keeps it well lubed. He has some cheap LPVO scope on it from somewhere. To me a truck gun would be something like that, if someone steals it your not out a lot of money, now you have me thinking about a project like this, me I would get a barrel with a FSB and put a carry handle on the gun, deja vu, and out to one hundred for me at least you would be good to go.

https://midwestindustriesinc.com/mi-ar15-m16-carry-handle/

I am going to add a question, what type of SHTF do you think might happen.

I love the idea of an EOTech but battery life or lack of, kills it for me. I’ve tried a half a dozen or more and always go back to Aimpoint.

Saw yesterday that PSA or Primary Arms had the Sig Romeo5 on sale for $109.

Same here. Anything with a kill switch is out of consideration. And I can't make the EO bright enough for looking into bright sunlight.

Feel same re motion activators - why I prefer the Romeo MSR over the newer Romeo 5. PSA has the MSR at $80 just now. Have one on a 9mm Response, just trying it out. Everything else has Aimpoints, various models.

A side note... We never had issues dumping full mags on a body silhoutte with irons to 600, so optics make life easer all around and any optic on a body target should work pretty good way beyond most folks needs.

Again if you are head shooting prairie dogs and such its different. I get that. OTOH I've killed more than a few deer scaring the heck out of 600 with irons on an AR15.

^This.

I have both, and I use both and I like both.

There are some guns that I have earmarked for certain things. Like, HD. Those all have dots of some kind or another. I'm a bigger fan of the eotech style circle dot reticle because my eye picks up on it faster than just a little small 1 or 2 moa dot.

For any gun that I would likely be using outside and at more distances, I have 1-4, 1-5, and 1-6x scopes. Many of them also have a larger outer ring around the bullseye reticle like the bushnell Circle X. Which still is faster for me to pick up.

[img]https://www.xhunter.com.au/assets/thumbL/BN01555LP.jpg?20210204035936[/img]

We have a steel range out to 1000 yards and after awhile shooting that far gets frankly, either boring or aggravating depending on the wind.
At 400 yards we have a dueling tree, at 300 we have a 1/2 size silhouette, 200 we have 7" plates. We find it more enjoyable to grab a carbine and shoot red dots and irons out to 300 yards and while frustrating, 400 is doable but much easier with a LPVO. Shooting out to 300 gave me lots of respect for a red dot.

Trijicon MRO on my 14.5" BCM. Zero issues with the MRO. My range runs to 300 yards and that set-up is very effective near or far. I have another rifle set up with a Leupold Mark AR Mod-1 1.5-4x green illuminated dot. The LPVO is good, it is effective. On small targets at over 200 yards it is probably the better option. But I really like the smaller profile lighter weight MRO best. They each have a place.

If your rifle may be used as a people shooter outdoors positive target ID is mandatory. Many folks can get hits on mansized targets at 300 yards w/ irons or a red dot but you won't be able to see their hands or what those hands hold w/out magnification. Taking target discrimination out of the equation makes life easier.



mike r

Exactly. Dots are fine for people. Magnification is for finding the right people, and then shooting only certain pieces of them.

Good thread

Blue,

I'm so stealing this line.

Yeah. I wish I had said that



mike r

Our SHTF is a coyote. A pig. A deer. Or hopefully not a 2 legged. Its not for any war. But its certainly there in each vehicle for the wild liberal stupid masses these days. And enough of the gun and ammo to defend and retreat to a better place.

As to cheap and gun vs stolen. yes cheap. But I'm all ok with cheap for other reasons. BUT it has to peform. If I have to make a difficult or longer shot it still has to work.

Up close, dots are really only faster on a mounted target transition from one target to another.

Mounted target transitions simply don't happen, ever, in the real world but are very common in 3 Gun type shooting.

This would be 2 shots or so to one target and then transtioning to another without breaking the mount.

That never happens is the real world and I have spent a lot of time trying to find any example of anyone ever having done it or know anyone who did it.

Don't be afraid of a bit of Xs on the bottom end and a fixed 3X is not a bad choice at all.

Which is why 95%?? of people don't need extra X.

What’s that movie line, “Nothing wrong with a little shootin’ long as the right people get shot”😛

While I own and have run both on various setups for years…both my own and those ‘provided’, the LPVO wins in about all scenarios…for me. There are reasons already covered, but decent glass, reticle, and magnification on call also enable you to see not just detail at longer ranges, but farther into shadow under foliage, back in rooms from the outside, discern a rag or fur from a rock, etc. plenty of times it can enable a shot that your naked eye can’t resolve through a dot sight….whether you’ve glassed and know what you’re looking for or not. I don’t foresee much cause for me to plan on going indoors after anything with my ‘truck’ gun, which is the only place I give a dot the upper hand. I don’t feel too handicapped by dots or prisms for an HD or SHTF rig, but I’ve developed the opinion that I’d rather have a durable LPV for covering all the bases the best way. I’ve been in positions where just about any option imaginable was readily available, and I still often ran an older Elcan 1/4: I couldn’t break it, it always had a reticle, and I had 4x when needed. It fit my particular needs very well for my issued ‘truck gun’.

Weaver 1.5 - 4.5 Grand Slam here. German #4 reticle, with red dot. It's a rugged but hefty scope. Pulled the battery. On my second one. Sent the first one back not realizing astigmatism makes it impossible to focus the illuminated type dots. Just a fuzzy blob. The hologram type like EOTech don't have that issue.

I have both I like both. I feel more precise with the lpvo. plenty-fast.
but I am right at the left eye dominant and keeping both eyes open and getting named correctly is easier with the Red Dot.

Who makes a good lvpo 1-6 or so for under $500?

I put a vortex red dot that has a built-in 5x magnifier on the lightweight 300 hamr for my 11 year old to hunt deer with last year. It worked pretty well and he heart shot his first deer at 200 yards with it. I also used it to shoot my buck as it was running though tall brush and it worked well there too.

However the glass isn't the best and the eye relief is short and sensitive. I'd like to go to an lvpo. I have a ss 1-4 that's ok but I'll probably put it on one of my lever guns. I'd like another option with a bit more mag range.

I'd also like a good durable lvpo for my 375 ruger bolt gun.

Bb

I'm pretty good at stuff.

I'd rather have a $500 1-4 than a 1-6. The glass on a P4xi or Accupoint 1-4 will be better than a 1-6 in the same price range. I'd prioritize glass quality over Xs.

If you're willing to spend $650-$700 I'd look around for a used Credo 1-6 with the BDC Hunter reticle. They're the real sleeper in that range.

That Credo (HX in my case) is a great scope. Well worth the bucks.

Where I live, no such thing as a "truck gun", just guns, and I don't even want to know what an "LPVGBTQ" is! I know my 55yo eyes like high magnification for distance, and red dots for close shooting. Holosun's & Romeo5's do the trick close, my old Leupy VariXIII 3x10's do the rest.

Yes - claiming ignorance of what a Low Powered Variable Optic is certainly lends credence to your opinion on the matter.

Poor child, you were butthurt by my comment, back under your rock lowbrow🤭

Just because some of us have not heard some of the alphabet soup stuff doesn't always mean we aren't credible.

OTOH sometimes it does.

I had no clue on what LPVO was. Now that I know I've been using those since the 80s on guns. Not my choice for the AR for the SHTF type scenario, but they work well.

Lol - I'm not hurt by a damned thing but yeah - keep rocking on with that virtue signaling.

The fact people much more commonly say things that bring up the butthurt? comment sure sucks for this country.

You should not have to have thick skin or ignore it. It used to get settled in the parking lot. But no one that threatens folks on the keyboard will show up anywhere to see if they can back up their smart azz not called for comments.

rost, I had no idea what LPVO stood for until not that long ago, either. Couple years ago, maybe.

Ah. 3 people ignorant. LOL

It's not a big deal if we call stuff by different names or don't know what names are.

But it's not helpful when someone asks for advice on A or B and gets a response like, "I've never used B, I like A!"

If that happened in real life you'd tell that guy to shut up. if in real life you were tasked with choosing between Ford and Chevy for your new company trucks and asked for personal, relevant experience with both and somebody shouted, "I like Ford, never drove a Chevy, never seen a Chevy, don't even know what a Chevy is! Also, I'm not going to provide any relevant insight as to why I like Ford or my experience with them, I'm just gonna shout that I like them."

That wouldn't be helpful in comparing the two trucks. Nobody likes that guy. Don't be that guy.

And even though I was using a Leupold 1.5-5, 20 years ago, they don't compare to what a true LPVO is supposed to be, or at least to gain the most benefit from it.

You need the speed of a red dot which means as close to true 1x as you can get with a huge eyebox and a daylight bright, not just visible red dot. Then you need a little magnification that keeps that huge eyebox while keeping sharp focus on both ends. 1-4's were easy to arrange, 1-6's pretty much too but 1-8 and higher is where things get expensive and even then there are trade offs.

I based my choice on the SHTF truck gun but for a GP carbine, I'd go with one of my scoped guns.

LPVO is a relatively new acronym and it sure easier to say and type than Low Powered Variable Optic.

We now have MPVOs so you guys need to add that to your shooting vocabluary.

Plenty of guys using a MPVO with a RDS either offset or PBed for their SHTF TG or their Recces and SPRs.

Good times.

That was good......I think......having no idea what you meant.

All this sounds pretty LBTQ()_*&_(*&_b to me

Most definitely a classic Campfire rendition of The Jabberwocky by Lewis Carroll. Like the poem, I have no idea what is being said but the message is readily understood.

piggy backed, or offset, mid power var optic, which makes some sense, I think PBed for me, I need to look into a mid power optic!

Thank you.

Some of these FUDD boomers just don't know what's up with the kool kids.

I do think I am going to set up a MK18 with a Crane speced port for running MK318 and MK262 with a SSA-E or maybe the HSNM DMR. For sure need an A5 tube w/7 postions and the H6 buffer with a Green spring. I do prefer the ACS-L more than something like the CTR or B-5 but have to have the Mil Spec version.

I might skip clone correct and go to a 12.7 middy with a P&W mono core for a one stamp gun and an MLOK handguard.

LPVO for sure either way and has to be SFP and MOA because my pronouns are he/his/him.

With astigmatism, doesn't much matter for me. It's LPVO or prism. The PA prism work for me but at only moderate ranges.

Ranges dictate which I choose, HD/chicken coop ranges, it's a 1x prism. Anything beyond 100yds it's a 3x or 5x prism.

So I hesitate to post this as I might get called out, and someone get butt hurt, but an aim point, chromed Colt barrel, with xm193, bench rested is easy a 4-5 MOA gun for me, granted 20 of them will land in that 4-5 inches but its still 4-5 inches. Your eyes dictate the precision as to which you can see the red dot in relation to the target, and this is not match ammo, but what many people have a bit of. At one point in my life I could shoot better than that with iron sights on a Colt Match Target HBAR. I still shoot some red dots, as they are in fact handy, and fast for sub 100 yards, and I feel that I can improve things a bit using the flip up rear iron co witnessed with the FS, however its a bit slower.... OTOH I won't be buying any more of them unless as to John Burns comment regards a small red dot on a 2.5-10 or more power riflescope. So a general purpose rifle for me, would not be one with just a red dot.

Calling you out for having the balls to post up what works for you. Dang good job!

This has been a great thread as I just ordered a little 10.5" 300 Blackout(it will used with a suppressor) and have been trying to figure out what optic to use with it.

I am clueless on this stuff so this was an educational read.


My use will be anything from just dicking around shooting gophers out to maybe 100 yards to actually practicing a little at close range 'self defense'.




Yes or no on this idea?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1024710580?pid=998234#reviews

The Sigs are good at the price point.

It's 2nd focal plane so you can use the reticle at low power without needing the illume which would be important for me. 1st focal plane in an LPVO really sucks at 1x unless there is a daylight bright dot.

There are a lot of decent LPVOs on the market.

If you're not in a big hurry, might want to check around a bit on that scope.................CameraLand has consistently had it cheaper than anyone else, though they are OOS right now.

Give them a call to find out when they'll get more.

We have a couple here & they work fine, ditto for the Vortex Strike Eagle for more money.

MM

Sig Tango MSR

I’m just gonna say I didn’t like the weight penalty on a short range gun (100 yards) that the 1-4 had. I quickly stuck a red dot on and moved the 1-4 on to something that could use the magnification. But my main objective was close range and keeping my SBR as handy as I could.


But most will shoot a scope better at any range than a red dot, it’s hard to decide, speed or accuracy.

You get both speed and accuracy with the right LPV setup. You also get the same with the red dot setup….the LPVO can extend your window over the dot, if you need. It’s more about setup, use, weight and size, than much speed or accuracy difference at short range. Versatility for longer range is what the LPVO gives. Speed at short range isn’t something a good LPVO setup has to give up to a dot, but there’s that perception.

Thank you guys for taking the time to give even more advice, much appreciated!


I clicked on the cameraland link and it shows they have that optic in stock now?

So I went ahead and ordered it, seems like a helluva deal!



I have a Sig dot on a M400 Tread and if I don't like the LPVO I will swap them around and see how that works.

Thanks again.

Perception equals reality…

All I know is I played with red dots vs LPVO’s on 22’s and shooting Steel Challenge matches. The timer doesn’t lie and red dots were always faster for me.

To each their own.

I don't shoot like you guys but can certainly understand your point.


But I think for now it will be a fun setup with the scope and spring time gophers and maybe even a coyote. Totally new learning experience for me.



We'll see how the very inexpensive Sig scope does. It gets decent enough reviews that I couldn't resist. Not the best glass but I don't plan on shooting past 100-150 yards with this setup.

I spent a fair bit of time using issued ACOGs, and red dots (EOTECH) while working overseas. Neither were ideal for situations and environments that were constantly changing. I ended up going with privately owned low powered variable scopes. Pretty much exactly what I had used and were totally familiar with from coyote/varmint/ small game hunting, where shots can be measured in feet to hundreds of yards.

Initially I used a 2-7 at one embassy where I spent a good amount of time either on the roof of the embassy or at another location where shots could be measured
in hundreds of yards.



Primarily we were looking for "spotters" and guys who were calling fire on us. The enemy finally received proper training and learned how to walk rocket and mortar rounds onto our location, so we would look for guys in building who during an attack may be watching and holding a cell phone, radio whatever.






Later, at other locations I ran a 1.5-5 illuminated Leupold. At that time using an LPVO was extremely rare to see. But it worked for me, and worked well. It allowed target discrimination, and as someone mentioned above, you could look "deep" into windows, or other places. You could see what a person had in their hands and see other details.
A good bit of time was spent in outer provinces where you could be in somewhat urban areas for part of the day, then out in wide open desert for the rest. Having an optic that was flexible to those changes was advantageous.





Normally I kept the gun on 1.5 x and shot it with both eyes open, just like a red dot. It was pretty quick, though not quite as fast as a true red dot or as good as todays true 1X optics, but at the time it was a very good piece of gear and even today I would not hesitate to use it on a carbine. When I needed to take a longer shot or take a good look at something, I simply dialed it up.





Today for an all around carbine, I would go with a compact 3x9 or 2.5-10 and put a mini red dot on top. That would give you a fairly capable gun. Yes, there is a trade off, as it won't be as light as running just a little red dot, but in terms of practicality, I will take a little bit more weight in the optic if it gives me better capability.

One would think that the difference between low powered cross hairs and a dot or such is simply you haven't trained with one enough. The dot tends to show less wobble so to speak. But we were quick drill running a 4x yesterday with a cousins son, I could see the crosshairs moving to the target better and start the break earlier than I did with a dot.

That said the only way to know for each of us is to simply run something a LOT.

We settled on the Burris 332 or something like it years ago. Just keep adding to the stable with them as needed. Trying to keep all house and vehicle guns with the exact same optics and triggers.

Run what works is what I can say.

I certainly quickly dumped a dot in the woods after not being able to see detail enough to not realize vines and it cost me a wounded deer to a deflection... I suspect a LPVO would have made the difference. It was replaced by a 2.5x8.

Your experience is in line with most shooters for that type of shooting.

Bear with me here.

Good RDS have a slight advantage on mounted transitions. In the steel speed matches one typically does not break from the mount and the transtions from one target to the next are known. Each target needs one hit and the target does not react to the shot. If you wait to hear the strike you are way behind the curve.

It's a wash comparing the RDS and the LPVO, speed wise,for first round hits with mounting the rifle, from high ready or low ready.

It's also a wash if you unmount the gun during the transition from one target to the next and this would include shooter movement during a target transition or needing to shoot until the target was no longer a threat.

Now I actually have investigated target transition in combat and those I have spoken to have unmounted the rifle when transitioning. Current best practice is to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. One needs to stay on on a target until it's no longer a target and then the rifle is unmounted while looking for another target. There was a time a few taught shooting a threat once and transition to another without assessing what your first shot did to the first target.

3 gun also teaches mounted transitions as we only need two bullet holes in the scoring rings but don't have to assess an effect on the target before transitioning to another target.

The RDS is a small bit faster for mounted transtions where there is no need to assess the effects of the rounds on target but once one needs to assess the effect on the target before transitioning to another target the LPVO just as fast.

I probably did a poor job here but mounted transitions vs unmounted transitions is a subject I find interesting.

Mackay and JB better articulate some things I attempted to point out about capabilities vs limitations between the two types. Bottom line: if there’s a situation and scenario where you need to be faster than today’s true 1x LPVOs , you either have the weapon already in a target ‘zone’ because it’s a shooting sport, and/or you don’t NEED a ‘sight’ at all, and shotgunning your setup is faster than either.

I can/have depended on both. The RD imparts far more restrictions upon use than the LPVO.

I keep futzing around with dots, prisms and scopes, and have finally realized that given time and a proper target, I can get good hits/groups with all of them. In the field and presumably under dire real-world circumstances, I may not get that time, and the targets are what they are. For me, that makes a real scope the best choice, and I’ll just have to suck it up over the weight and bulk. I have an Adams Arms P2 carbine upper in the pipeline, and it’ll get the best LPVO I have, the Credo HX 1-6.

For my house guns, they all have red dots on them including my shotguns and pistols.

For hunting guns, they have LPVO's.

Even though I prefer and use low power variables, I still use various other optics in multi use roles.

I have had a 4x ACOG with the original TAO1 reticle (which I still prefer over all the rest) for many years. It resides on a 16" Colt. On top of it is a mini RDO. It does house duty and in practicing with it at the range and in the field on various small game, I have found it to be an extremely effective combo. The RDO is set up to engage pretty much anything from point blank range to 50 yards. From 50 yards on out I transition to the ACOG.




While it lacks a little being only a 4x, in actual use, I have found it to be rather effective and quite fast. Aside from longer range stuff that is measured in hundreds of yards, I have found this combo to be pretty handy. For 200 yards and in, where a whole bunch of stuff seems to happen, it is a pretty good lightweight combo. For a truck/hunting/traveling gun, it is pretty handy too.

Mac,

That's how my duty weapon in Iraq was configured, and in pre-deployment training, it was blazing fast.

I may just go back to a version of that, say a 6XMQ with a red dot to the side.

Mac, That’s a whole lot of straight up common sense in that setup.

I had that same optic setup for a while, and if you can go that route, you can go well beyond 200 if you have to. That covers bases very well. one of my favorite setups was an old 1x/4x Elcan I scavenged. That thing could get beaten with a sledgehammer and still let me go indoors or plink a ridge, with a simple flip of that lever. Heavy? as hell. LOL

I had the TA33-g that was only a 3x ACOG but it let me bang 7” steel plates out to 700 yards. My daughter took that gun over after killing a few deer with it. It’s a Colt 6720 with the same Troy rail and built in flip up front sight.

But after a few years my eyes got so bad the reticle would not focus for me. Now that I have glasses I might try another one.

This has been a pretty good discussion.

The thing is a shtf gun isn't the same for everyone just like a truck gun means different things to different people.

My choice for trouble is an ar pistol with an eotech with a Cloud OWL. My truck guns usually have magnifying optics and 16" in an AR15 but often I keep a bolt gun in the truck.

I’ve taught three days of LPVO classes in the last week

19 shooters with everything from 4x ACOGs to 1-4/6s, 3x magnifiers, to 4-14s with offset dots.

Everyone shot equally on the single close range drill we do. Nobody had trouble with 8” plates at 200 and in or C Zone plates at 300. For 8” plates at 300 yards shooters could get hits at 300 with any magnification, but they needed some sort of stadia line.

As soon as we added photo realistic targets and required target discrimination the 4x optics were useless beyond 175ish yards. 6x got people to 250.

The magnification isn’t about hitting targets, it’s about making sure you’re hitting the right target. And shooting steel on the range doesn’t evaluate that.