Home Forums Birds & Dogs Turkey Hunting Indian Creek .410 choke and TSS: damage from a single shot

I've fired quite bit of Federal TSS #7 and #9 through my 20 gauges using a Carlsons TSS extended turkey choke .565. The stuff patterns well and I have no evidence in the choke tube that pellets are making contact with choke tube. Here's that choke after several boxes of Federal TSS #7 and #9.



In contrast, here's my new .410 Indian Creek choke .385 after a single round of Federal TSS .410, which killed my bird in January. This choke has porting, but no wad stripping rings like the larger gauge IC chokes do.



Those marks are all the way around the inside of the tube. And they are deep enough to easily feel. Yes, I've heard that the TSS flight control wads may be affected by porting. But I doubt porting is doing anything to the Flight Control wad that it's not also doing to traditional wad/shot cups.


I have a lot of aftermarket chokes. Soild and smooth, ported and smooth, and ported with wad strippers. In every single choke I have that's ported, even if it's smooth (no wad stripper), there's evidence that the shot is getting ahead of the wad/shot cup. In my smooth, ported Kicks chokes, the ports have lead shavings where the ports acted as a cheese grader on the shot as it passed through. Lead had to have gotten ahead of the shot cup. My Patternmaster Code Black Turkeys chokes, likewise, shiny lead deposits in the ports. In my ported Carlsons Longbeard XR (with a wad stripper) and Buckshot (without a wad stripper) chokes, there are shiny lead deposits in the ports and lead fouling from shot outside the shot cup in the tubes. In my Patternmaster Big Game tube (which isn't worth it's own weight in dog shyt, IMO), which is not actually ported, but has weird wad strippers in it (I say weird because most buckshot loads aren't in shot cups), the wad strippers get rather thick deposits of lead behind them because they are shaving lead off the pellets as they go through.

On the other hand, not a single one of my smooth, not-ported choke tubes show this sort of thing. None have evidence that the shot has gotten ahead of the shot cup. There is no lead fouling at all. And they produce very good patterns. (The exception is buckshot loads - no shot cups, and they do leave some lead fouling.)

It's my opinion from the evidence I've seen that porting acts as a wad stripper whether or not there is a wad stripper built into the choke. But it seems to me they all, likely, to some degree or another, slow the shot cup down enough that shot gets out and makes direct contact with the inside of the choke, leaving lead fouling and, in the case of TSS, damage. I'm not saying they don't pattern well. Some of mine do. But it seems to me they disrupt the design-intent of wad/shot cup.

YMMV.

Newer Flitecontrol wads are porting compatible.

Just think of it as straight rifeling to control wad rotation! Shows how hard the TSS shot is...

The Indian Creek .410 choke doesn't have the wad stripping rings in the portion of the tube in front of the grooves. There's no shot errosion in that section of the tube. It starts slightly past where the porting starts. That tells me the ports are grabbing the shot cup and slowing it allowing the pellets to move out of the cup and make contact with the inside of the choke. So those grooves are acting like a wad stripper.

Indian Creek chokes for larger gauges have wad stripping rings in the portion of the tube ahead of the porting. It seems to me that those rings would slow the shot cup almost immediately allowing pellets to hit subsequent rings as pellets move forward. I'd bet an IC chokes with wad stripping rings that are used with TSS have chewed up wad strippers.

I can tell from my 12 gauge chokes with are ported and have wad stripper rings that the very first ring slows the wad enough to let raw lead pellets out of the shot cup, and those pellets are leaving lead fouling streaks and shavings in the port holes. My smooth non-ported chokes don't have any sings like that. There is no signs that I can see that shot is getting out of the cup and making contact with the inside of the choke.

What does all this mean? Not much if the chokes pattern well. But I think the erosion in my .410 choke above is a lot for a single shot. It won't take much of that before the inside of that tube is all chewed up and the patterns are affected.

Very interesting observation for sure. SumToy brand chokes doesn't use any porting whatsoever, and his brand of tubes are highly regarded in the turkey hunting circles. I don't own any SumToy tubes yet, but the Trulock "non-ported" tubes so far have worked fairly well for myself.

What does Indian Creek say?

I didn't call them and likely won't. I mean, after all, it is just a choke tube and it's sort of a sacrifical part. The cost of this tube is about the same as a couple of boxes of .410 TSS shells. If it gets chewed up, I'll replace it. I am just sort of shocked at the amount of erosion that occurred from one single shot. When I first noticed it, I thought that it was just the black finish that came off. Then I ran a pin across it to feel it and it's got quite a texture to it. Indian Creek is highly recommend by TSS shooters, but I see very little mention of them getting chewed up like this. I have an Indian Creek 10 gauge choke I haven't shot yet. I was hoping to pattern some Federal Custon 2 5/8 oz #9 TSS loads through it. The 10 gauge choke has a bunch of wad stripper rings in it (the .410 choke has none). I suspect it's going to get a beating from TSS.

I have a new Carlsons TSS choke .385 for this gun. It's a smooth, non-ported choke - a smaller version of the 20 gauge choke in my original post. I may just start using that for TSS out of this gun instead of this Indian Creek choke.

I’ve got Indian creek chokes for all of my turkey guns. They shoot great out of all of them, and I’ve run a PILE of tss through them, in addition to lead, federal heavyweight, Winchester xr, hevishot, etc. They all get dinged up. And I’ve never had one start shooting worse patterns. Most of them get better infact, after they’ve been “broken in”. Also, it’s been my understanding/experience that ports themselves act as wad strippers, and slow the wad from the shot purposefully.

I'll keep shooting it and see how it does. I agree on the porting. Ports do act as wad strippers. I don't see the point of putting separate wad stripping rings inside the choke. Once the wad hits those rings and the pellets are making contact with the inside of the choke, those ports start shaving lead off the pellets themselves.

Actually, I tend to believe those wad stripping rings are just a result of a cheaper manufacturing process, and then called a "feature."

Interesting. I’m shooting Indian creek chokes in 2 different 20s this year. First time I’ve used Indian creek. Patterns were good. I’ve heard of the tubes getting beat up and did not notice any obvious damage to either of mine after a few shots on the patterning board. But I will take a closer look. As long as the turkey flops when I press the bang button it doesn’t really matter to me though

When shooting TSS, I consider a choke tube a consumable item much like a rifle barrel. The shot is just so hard, harder than the choke material. All my Indian Creeks in every gauge have scouring on the inside of them. To me, it is what it is. Just part of shooting tungsten, like shooting a barrel burner rifle caliber.

On a side note.. I'm thinking I'm not buying anymore ported chokes and may return the breand new AvianX one I want to try in my franchi 12 gauge.

I really like IC chokes and I haven’t seen the damage you are seeing in mine, but it’s probably not unusual either.

I’ve gone to non-ported chokes in the last few years. SumToy, Briley, and Carlsons

I agree, they are the sactifical part of the barrel system. I was just shocked at how badly this was roughed up. It's not uniform wear all the way around. That section is the worst. But there are some similar marks from raw pellets around the entire inside, and they appear to start right where the ports start, or a tad back from them, closer to the threaded area. Like I said, I've patterned 20 gauge Federal TSS quite a bit through a standard full choke and the Carlsons smooth, extended, non-ported TSS choke above. There is no evidence at all of pellets making contact with the inside of the tube. As stated, I've got other tubes in 12 gauge that are ported and/or have wad strippers, and they show evidence of the pellets coming into contact with the tube, but its lead. So other than getting fouled, it's not causaing any detectable damage. So I should have anticipated this choke would get buggered up. I suspect my 10 gauge Indian Creek choke will take a beating, too.

I'm going to take this gun out with the full choke, this Indian Creek choke .385, and a new Carlsons TSS .385 smooth, extended non-ported choke, and run various load through them to see what's what. If the Indian Creek patterns TSS the best, I'll stick with it.

It has been common knowledge that ports act as a wad retarding feature in a choke tube for a very long time. I did an extensive bit of experimenting back in 2007 searching for good coyote/predator load and choke combinations for shotguns. I documented my process and discussed the various wad stripping features different manufacturers used and how they affected patterns in those discussions. That work exploded, turns out there was/is a lot of interest in shotgunning coyotes. I had a couple of gearhead shotgun guys chip in and help with the work and received support from several manufacturers and shell sponsors. That has been an ongoing process and is still a work in progress today as new technology like TSS is introduced to the shotgun world. Those results have been published and shared around the predator hunting community websites, forums, and videos. I learned a thing or two from my work and all of those who contributed and continue to do so in that project. I am no expert but I can tell you, yes from my experience porting retards the wad. One of the reasons I dislike ported barrels on hunting shotguns.

Good information. Thanks for your experiments!

I am like others here and consider chokes as a consumable, but hope they last for awhile.

Everything is a consumable, including us!

If anyone is interest, this is the Patent for the shotgun choke with integral wad-stopping feature.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20050011102A1/en