Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors WWII Model 70?

Hoping the smart people on here can shed some light on a situation. I have the opportunity to buy a beautiful custom pre-64 Model 70, serial number 44xxx). That would put it's date at 1942. However, on the receiver is what was a former marking that says "PROPERTY". It seems blasphemous someone would do that to the gun. During the customization, it looks like someone cerakoted over the marking.

But I'm wondering if "PROPERTY" used to say "US PROPERTY" and this was possibly a WWII gun? And if so, maybe the marking isn't such a detriment that I thought it to be? Curious if you feel this is a ding on value, no effect on value, or maybe I'm completely off and it's a positive for value? Link to picture here:

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JWm0GTWrAhUfwgs7PmNNcSX-N_QT-m08/view?usp=drive_link[/img]

No real expertise here but I don't think armorers would scribe by hand, as it looks like your example has been done. I would expect that to be stamped, but as I said I have no experience to draw from.

I'd go along with that, as most firearms that are stamped "property of us govt" etc. are more professional looking than that. Looks like either a kindergartner or drunk indian scribed that on by hand. My first thought is to remove the crap, and then re-sand blast the receiver and blue to factory specs. But that may just be me..???

I'd also have to ask the OP what other "customizations" have been done to the rifle in question?? D&T on the rear bridge? If so, it would be fair game to have that crap removed. I could do it and you'd never know it was done, so any professional should be able to do the same. Just sayin.

Contraire! "Non original nomenclature" is just that. Incomplete & efforts to obliterate, etc. I'd not regard it as "collector grade" merchandise. For a "field gun", seeming a 'ho hum', but for...

Weight of the "Property" marking and of partial obliteration efforts evidenced. Whatever inference to be construed and by whom. "What are the chances..." Versus Murphy's Law! Add "under the influence of the - what next - era we live in!"

Hassles at my age; don't really need "inviting"!

Just a old man's take!
Best!
John

That doesn't look markedly different to me. Different styles Y, but that gun at cabelas doesn't look like it was professionally stamped by any stretch. The one I sent a pic of looks like [bleep] comparatively because they only went 75% when they refinished it.

There appears to be other rifles on the internet that are scribed in similar fashion. However, the one in the OP looks to be very poorly done. Maybe missing the "US", also as he states. OP should do an internet search. He may find more info, like serial # ranges. From the little bit of research I did, I saw where 373 rifles were sold to the marine corps in 1942. This could possibly be one of those rifles? Also, if the OP's rifle is serialized "44xxx", as he states, that rifle was made in 1941.

Here's another one I found on the internet search:


They also had a batch of them in 1957, like the one NY posted a link of at Cabela's.

Side note: The US should have had a welder scribe the receivers, instead of a machinist or bean counter. They would have turned out much more professional looking.

The Marine Corps used earlier purchased and issued M-70s right into Korea and Vietnam. Not all were Bull Guns or Sniper Models.
And many were not for Camp Perry or other target matches. Sporter barrel configuration.
At least one USMC SGT used one effectively at the Chosin Reservoir in 1950: (Breakout-Martin Russ)
USMC snipers utilized M-70s at Khe Sanh-RVN

Washington-N. VA. military bases in the 1980s had early M-70s that could be actually signed-for
by active duty personnel and returned after hunting trip use. I signed for one for a week in 1985
that was a 1940s rifle-complete with early safety,Lyman Alaskan scope, and cloverleaf tang.

The temptation was to find out how much I would owe the US Govt-if it was lost. Rifle was not marked US Property.
It was issued through the base sport & recreation office. At present, my number of early Model 70s would preclude that.

No source document, but, a long time custom shop employee shared that the crude electro pencil “US PROPERTY” marking was put there by the Winchester factory on guns sold under direct contract to the Government. Not just on M70’s, but M52’s etc.
It seems likely that Winchester just pulled finished guns from inventory when an order was placed and scribed “US PROPERTY” on them before shipping (the electro pencil marking was applied after the receiver was blued).

Thanks for the replies. I am actually very confident this gun was part of the 350+ guns purchased by the marines. I chatted with a gentleman that has a partial list of 250 of those guns of the 373, and that order has guns with serial numbers on both sides of this gun's number.

I did purchase the rifle and upon removing the scope mount, "US" was clearly shown above "PROPERTY".

Again, part of the reason it looks so [bleep] / done poorly is because someone tried to polish/sand the lettering away when the rifle was customized. They polished it significantly enough that the Winchester proof mark at the edge of the action is now gone too.

Nonetheless, I absolutely love the gun. They did a nice job customizing the gun and rechambering to 416 Remington. It is a great addition to my African rifles that will be joining me on my next trip.

Dont mean to resurrect an old post, but I saw this gun for sale that had the same markings as the gun I asked about and bought last year. Not sure if seller's description is correct, but the style is the same. Makes me feel good about the price I paid.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...model-70-winchester.cfm?gun_id=102614343

Realizing that this is an older post, but does this gun have an H&H receiver originally. 1941 Model 70's are plentiful; any 1942-1945 are much more scarce.

Yes, the original gun posted several was rechambered to 416 remington. Given that a 416 is a 3.6" cartridge, it's built on the H&H (Group VII) receiver.

Gunsmith actually has had the gun for a bit. Got a custom scope mount built because it was previously tapped for a scope with holes with atypical spacing. So wanted to use same holes instead of making new ones. Also had him put in a mercury recoil reducer. Hoping to get it back today or tomorrow actually.

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing all this.

I don't think I ever did share a full picture of the gun, only the markings on it. Here is a link for the gun.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cTGRmXQnv7rC160EcwYqb7tPHk6xJFBL/view?usp=sharing

The seller had this scope and mount on it, which didn't come with the gun. I'll be throwing a low power VX6 on it that's currently on my pre64 375 H&H. I know custom guns aren't always big hits with the collectors, but I like it.

That is a nice gun. I like hunting with quality, vintage guns, so no problem with that. You lost me with the brake. I am not a fan of brakes.

I didn't put the brake on. It was like that when I bought it. Would I have done that had I built it? No. I have a 458 Lott without a brake that's no issue to shoot, so I wouldn't throw a brake on a 416. But some guys can't handle the recoil I guess...

A "well worked Thread!" Speculation beginning with assumption that the word "Property" must be associated with U.S. Military acceptance. More than flimsy. A single word scribbled? Not achieving any "official notice of property ownership". None whatsoever. From there "original motive & intent" of informing as NOT as moved to a predicate of "BS" and working up a lather of "inferences subsequent!" The idea of "partial scrubbing" moving from ridiculous to beyond as whom to engage in such endeavour left incomplete. Excuse me, but the actual "presumptive Duh-factor theory of "reasonable intent!"

Winchester could certainly place a Government Property marking. Days at most for the Factory to secure a number of proper stamps, mandrel tools & jigs! Perhaps to stamp a hundred rifles, production fashion, same time of single word scrawl placed by a "DT recovering" old man inscribing! To postulate otherwise seems as ignoring of Winchester capabilities. Yet too, the actual possible likelihood of the Ordinance folks placing such "Property" marking; the scribble precept of "Military factors" as ignoring of "Regularity & Decorum." "Emergency" nomenclature context, marshalling Calligraphy talented "Rosy The Riveter times 3 or so, within Government capabilities as resorting to other Agencies such as Treasury Dept or National Archives, resplendent of such talent.


The other end of inquiry spectrum. "Motive" as as association with Marine use as as morphed to "artefacts of war"!
Best!
John

I saw many a Win 52 or H&R clone of a Win 52 in many arms rooms, which were for practice and competition with electropenciled US Property markings. They were sold off through the CMP many times, to include Kimber 22 rifles. This was common for commercial guns bought by the government for recreational use, i.e.marksmanship practice and competition. A commercial arm purchased through channels for combat use / issue would more likely have stamped markings, i.e. sniper rifles. An H&H receiver marked with electropencil, sounds like it was probably a 300 H&H Bullgun used in competition.