Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Levels of power/tissue destruction based on cartridge

So if a guy has a fast twist 223, and can shoot, where does he need to go next to level up to the next benchmark for killing power?

257? 264?

If a guy has a 6.5 creedmoor, is a 308 enough of a separation to be worth having, etc?

Yes I know we should all have all of them. I am just interested in what some of you guys think who have been shooting and hunting and experiencing things outdoors for decades longer than I have.

Never been a fan of the 243 or 25-06 I’d bump it up to 270 I know it sounds ghey 🤣🤣🤣

.223, .7-08 .375 H&H.

.223 to .264 strikes me as a significant jump. That doesn't mean a .223 won't kill the things you'd typically hunt with a Swede or Creedmoor, but I'd be a lot more comfortable with the .264. I think I'd do pretty much the same with a .264 that I would with .277 or .284. But I would consider the move up to .308 or .323 significant from .264. (Not that I wouldn't have a lot of overlap in what I'd shoot, game wise, but at the distances I would typically shoot, a 180 grain 30-06 or a 196 grain 8x57 is a substantially larger and not really victim to drop/drift enough to matter.) From .308, I think the next jump big enough to really matter is to .366 and a 286 grain bullet.

Premium bullets and variations in velocity really blur the difference in caliber. Used to be you needed velocity and bullet weight to get penetration. Now with faster twists and premium bullets a 223 can come close to yesterday's 270 and the 270 can compete with a 338.

Long ago Layne Simpson wrote that he thought the 257 Roberts and 338 Win Mag were enough of a versatile pair that a guy would be well equipped to handle all North American hunting. I don't think he was wrong.

I personally think that with a fast twist 223 the lines of performance are blurred quite a bit. I like quarterbore rifles, and think a 25-06 is about perfect middle size rifle. For large I chose a 338WM.

These days, I'd probably get a 6.5 or 7mm PRC and call it good, just because they're currently popular and reloading brass is easy to get. If you really must go bigger for some reason I still think the 338WM is a fine choice.

Sadly many of the truly great options are fading from popularity and getting hard to get brass or factory ammo for.

Almost, .223, .308, and .375 H&H

This year we killed whitetails only, with 308 win and 223. Ranges were from 50 yards out to 375. We used two loads, Hornady superformance 150gr sst and Blackhills 77gr TMK. There was really no difference. Except we did recover one of the SST bullets.

That does sound gay. If you went with 7x57 or 7mm-08, that’s all anyone would need. Power level or not

260

I’m not sure I can tell a statistically significant difference between most of the calibers being discussed, based on killing power, but I certainly can based on wind drift. In terms of wind, I see significant gains going from .224” to .243” to .264” to .284”.

Bullet construction will play a big part in tissue destruction.

Something tells me a 130 Gameking from a 270 Winchester will leave a bigger mess than a 180 Interlock from a 30-06.

Even a 243 with 100 grain Gamekings can make one think a deer was shot with something larger.

Never killed a critter with a Barnes but have heard they wreck lung tissue but the meat itself is normally less bloodshot than something that was shot with a cup and core bullet.

A sample of one, but it does appear reasonable. One of my nephews shot this buck square in the shoulder at close range with an 85 grain TSX out of a 243. Not a lot of bloodshot considering the impact speed.

What game are you after to require "more power"? I mean you could go up to a 50 BMG in a shoulder fired rifle.

Your question lacks some diffinition.

I always thought a .223 was a bit light for larger game. Never cared for a .243 or .270 Win. The 7x57 if you handload or 7mm-08 is enough “more power” for game unless you are shooting at extended ranges 300+ yards. A .257 Roberts is my favorite deer cartridge except when hunting thick cover where I like a bit more bullet weight to break bone to limit run offs.

Not sure if “and can shoot” has much bearing to be honest, as I am thinking you are meaning in the context of placing bullets where you want so that you can hit vitals with a minimum of interference to get to lungs? Spin a long for caliber softer bullet hard and push it at a reasonable velocity and they will dig pretty deep and bore big holes doing it.

In an granny smith apple to red delicious apple comparison (meaning shot distances and presentations have varied) I’ve killed bull moose (or called the shot over the shooters shoulder and been elbows deep in the results) with 243AI/105 Amax, 264WM/140X, 708 AI/162 Amax, 280AI/150 TTSX, 7wsm/120 TSX, 300WM/180 PSP, 300 Ultra 168 and 180 TSX.

And there wasn’t really been any appreciable difference between what was used on my last two bulls until you step to the 300 Ultra/180 TSX level. And that is mostly just depth of penetration being greater with the mono’s pushed fast (no surprise there).

223AI/88 ELD m I used on my last two moose was as immediately effective as anything else. Wound channels were indistinguishable from what you’d see with a controlled expansion bullet from a typical “moose cartridge”. Broken bones and 2” diameter holes bored through ribcages and lungs.

Both of them had shoulder knuckles pulverized and a couple/few feet of penetration. The first bull caught the one and only shot as it was through both shoulders and caught under the hide. The second (much larger) bull caught one after it smashed the onside shoulder knuckle and was under the hide just in front of the diaphragm. The second shot was an exit, diagonally through the lungs as he was falling over sideways when the bullet got there.

Bullets being the only thing that matters in my opinion when it comes to killing, I think you would see a noticeable difference in terminal effect if you stepped up to the faster 6.5’s or 7’s, and pushed 147/162 ELD m’s in the same velocity window 2700ish + at the muzzle and spun at a 1:7” twist rate. However, there might get to be too much damage starting there.
I think twist rate plays a bigger role in penetration than is fully realized at this point. Just my theory though, worth exactly as much as you paid for it.

So does rate of twist create a separation between calibers? Let's say a 243 with a 7 twist which allows a different selection of bullets, and a 308 with plain old 150 cup and cores?

Is it diameter?

In other words, how would one choose which next step up, given need for a "bigger hammer?"

Seems like a 6.5x55, for example, might make having a 308 completely unnecessary in some scenarios.

Or does it? What have you guys experienced?

I remember a thread on Rokslide (can't find it now) that showed pictures of a lot of different wounds from ELD-X bullets of different calibers. The wounds from the 30 caliber bullets were consistently quite a bit bigger than those from the 6.5's. I think it was a Formidilosus thread, and his point was that the 6.5 wounds were smaller but were big enough to get the job done. As with everything, you can always go bigger.

"If a guy has a 6.5 creedmoor, is a 308 enough of a separation to be worth having, etc?"

I have both and I think the CM is a great overall choice for most deer but when it comes to bigger deer, like my annual KS hunt, I prefer the 308 with 165s. Larger, heavier bullets tend to penetrate more and I've never been let down with a 165/308 if I do my part.

I've used the 270 Win with 130s quite a bit over the years and that combo of bullet weight and velocity is very impressive on deer!