Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Random thoughts on Carbon Taxes

All;
Good morning to you all, I hope that wherever this finds you that it finds you well.

During our morning walk earlier today, my wife and I were chatting about an exchange I'd watched on legacy media where the host mentioned that "even experts" can't find a direct link between increased carbon taxes and higher costs of food.

That got me to thinking of a few of the different businesses that I'd managed and/or helped keep the wheels rolling over the years and how increased energy costs would have effected them.

For 27 odd years I worked in various capacities in a cabinet, cabinet door and furniture making facility.

When the cost of diesel would go up, we'd get a "transport surcharge" and while we might not be able to pass it onto the consumer for the set of cabinets we'd already started, you can be sure the next set they bought was going to cost them more.

Even back in the '80's we had a natural gas bill that was shocking because as anyone who has worked with wood knows, it needs to be warm and dry in order to keep it stable.

Also wood glue works best at from about 20° up to 40° max.

Most commercial stains and any commercial clear coats we used were happiest at 35°, not much more or less.

Even back in early 2000's when we looked at more environmentally friendly waterborne finishes, we couldn't afford to use them because of the increased energy costs required to keep both the temperature and humidity VERY controlled.

Later on I managed a storage facility where we provided frost free inside storage for RV's, boats, motorcycles, classic and exotic automobiles and some other misc. stuff.

The fixed overhead costs there were municipal fees and taxes and the cost of heating the building. If I had to pay a higher carbon tax, you paid more to keep your wake board or fishing boat from freezing.

If one is reading this and thinking to oneself, "Well I don't have a boat in storage and am not buying new cabinets anytime soon", let me float this thought out for you.

Suppose you do want to move at some point and either need to spruce up the place before putting it on the market or would like to get into a new house for whatever reason.

Can one just imagine now with me attempting to plan a new place when all the local cabinet shops can only operate in warm months of the year?

Well, you say, we'll buy cabinets made offshore in places that are warm year round then.....

Which is happening for sure, but when we push work to other countries, there are less people putting money into the kitty that hopefully will be supporting Canadian infrastructure.

Little things we've become addicted to such as functional roads, water, power, the little things in life, much less a government pension, cannot exist if not enough are paying into it.

That's just simple math.

I'll let the gentle reader imagine the downward spiral to whatever depth they choose, but historically speaking functional societies have the majority of it's people working towards a common goal. The successful ones figure out how to have achievable goals that many if not most can attain, for fairly obvious reasons.

Anyways all, I've intentionally not gone into how increased energy costs ALWAYS make for increased production costs on food, both because I've stated that in other posts and to me it is a given truism, regardless of what any talking head in any university or legacy media desk believes otherwise.

Again I'm likely preaching to the choir here, but perhaps the choir can use some of my random thoughts to convince a fence sitter of their acquaintance how math actually works.

All the best to you all out there.

Dwayne

A lot what follows here is my opinion, not from willful ignorance, but from a deliberately opaque lack of information in the industry.
My son works in forest management, investors buy huge tracts of timberlands and hire forestry management companies who actually do the timber sales, road maintenance, reforestation, fire protection, water quality, wildlife management.
Over the last few years, a lot of logged over land has been purchased by investment groups, formerly these lands went cheap, in our area you are looking at a minimum of a 40 year cycle for harvest. The price of this logged over land has skyrocketed. People wonder why...how does the price go up when harvest goes down?
Well it turns out it has to do with the old carbon credit trading plan...you may recall the 'cap and trade' conferences in Europe some years back. If I'm understanding it correctly, businesses like tree plantations/reforestation are huge carbon credit generators. But businesses like manufacturing...cars, widgets and cabinets are gross energy consumers...and they pay carbon penalty 'tax' to operate. I think the tree farm puts it's credits up for auction, and the widget manufacturer may buy them them to offset his penalty 'tax'.
What is not explained, who oversees the carbon trading market, where does the penalty money go, what govts or agencies enforce this scheme, by what legal authority? It reminds me of the US Federal Reserve...everything is shrouded in secrecy.
Unfortunately, IMO, tree farming is highly overrated as an environmentally ethical enterprise...or at least as forestry practice is applied currently. The best surviving species in our 30'' rain a year is ponderosa pine...so they plant ponderosa...'pines in lines'. Proven to be tinderbox firetraps, proven to be nearly uninhabitable by larger wildlife, very low market value...but it qualifies to earn carbon credits, what a shame.

flintlocke;
Good afternoon sir, I hope the day's behaving down there and it's a nice sunny one like it is here.

Thanks for the reply and additional perspective, I wasn't aware of that but it makes perfect sense.

Where we live is in the Ponderosa Pine belt and you're correct that mature stands of Ponderosa provide very limited wildlife habitat, but luckily - or maybe not - they do burn like crazy and the regrowth is good for the next half century.

Some of this "cap and trade" and "carbon credits" is so much smoke and mirrors it makes my head hurt. Better said, likely all of it does, but I digress.

Here we stalled a whole bunch of development on natural gas plants and exports, even though the leaders of Germany and Japan came here asking for it.

The reasoning given by Socks and minion crew was that there wasn't a business model that made sense at this point and it'd raise our carbon emissions.

Ironically, at the same time the same bunch has increased our coal exports, because that doesn't raise Canadian carbon emissions, but of course does nothing for global carbon emissions.

When someone asks one of the true believers if the clouds of whatever can't move across borders, they're met with a blank stare and sometimes a stern lecture about how we must be world leaders in this sort of thing.

It'd be whole lot more humorous if it was happening to someone else sir, alas, it seems to be our turn in the rocking chair.

All the best.

Dwayne

Dwayner,

This should cheer you up !

Paul;


Thanks much sir!

As a lifetime "cat guy" that white cat meme always or nearly always makes me chuckle.

Hopefully all is well with you and your wonderful family out east as spring begins to begin in earnest.

Thanks again and all the best to you all.

Dwayne

In my feeble military mind, carbon tax credits are nothing but a ponzi scheme for the politicians. One of the state economists here in WA was fired when he dared to point out that the carbon tax for our resident idiot governor would raise gas prices around .50 a gallon. Inslee's demon idiots told him it wouldn't and were very upset when the economist was right. Spin is going on now as we speak to show that the gas increase was not due to the carbon tax as the fund increases to something over a billion dollars.

Little bit chilly, here !!

Deb & I just got back, from making a couple of oldies, in Australia, very happy !











Food & scenery pics, in the hunting rifles "PRIME TIME" thread, if you're inclined !

Paul;
Thanks for the reply sir.

I am so inclined and thanks for letting me know.

Wow that country is so very different from anything I've seen, especially the trees.

Thanks again for sharing the trip, glad you made it there and back safely.

Best to you all.

Dwayne

Perfect tax scheme —pay a tax on the air you breathe with no way to measure what it accomplishes.
People are starting to wake up to the scam but a ton of money has gone down the drain.

Random thoughts, Dwayne.
Well....I am a self employed hvac contractor, I have all the measurement devices to set up , adjust and tune all gas fired and oil fired equipment in the hvac business.
My assessment, when we burn properly designed and installed heating equipment, the emmisions are negligable. a tiny amount of CO 2, some nitrogen and lots of condensate, water vapour.
The rapid deforestation practices should welcome our tiny contribution of carbon dioxide.
My measurements conclude a miniscule carbon effect and we can heat our homes and buildings.
But heck, Will they actually listen to a hayseed from Western Canada?
Will Big Brother save anything if all Canadian's packed up and left for southern Florida? I don't know, what would it cost for all the plane's, train's and automobile's emmisions to do this?
Old Geezer here. Maybe, I will burn a little more wood until it warms up. I will send the appropriate smoke signals to anyone who cares.

Good analysis by Brian Lilley --- carbon tax mking everything more expensive. Do not forget we pay the GST on top of the carbon tax and that is not in the rebate

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/top...-than-it-gives-back-for-most/ar-BB1kbqv2

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/oth...-to-save-his-carbon-tax-hike/ar-BB1kblGp

Its just another tax, a tax that has no ceiling, they need the revenue to fund wars and the ridiculous Communist social programs etc...

If one lives in the City and doesn't drive to work etc (Liberal and NDP voters) then they will enjoy the so-called carbon credit cheques, supplied on the backs of those who do have to purchase fuel.

Its underhanded, and the so-called PM had a meltdown and left the house under questioning today, he wouldn't allow a Liberal MP who is against the tax to answer a question proposed by Poilivere at least 6 times today, an infantile way to react to legitimate questions. LOL

As an aside....I wrote a Liberal MP fromBC a letter about a month ago on this very subject, he got back to me yesterday and he was touting it was the BC United (right wing) that brought the tax in in 2008 and it was supported and we should love it....I reminded him that was a good reason to despise them for the tax lol.... the BC United is now a distant 3rd and will be unikely to govern in my lifetime again, the rats are jumping ship over there....clown show.

Dwayne, hope the snowstorm that is headed our way dropped a bit of moisture on your side of the Rockies.

It would be interesting to know the qualifications and political alignment of the "experts" that cannot find a link between the carbon tax and higher prices. Perhaps they should do a simple check at a local pizza place to see if the prices of a pie out of a gas fired oven have gone up to support the direct increased cost of firing the ovens.

I was in senior administration when the NDP were in power in Alberta and had to prepare budget impacts based on both the carbon tax (levy) and the increased minimum wage that they brought in. In speaking directly with various NDP I can confirm that they had no idea on impacts of increased costs of fuel to private facilities let alone government buildings and budgets. The comment made to me was they thought there was fat in budgets that this increase could be absorbed.

I do not know if you remember the press on the impact to the operation of greenhouses and how this almost shut down the industry.

On minimum wage increase they did not factor in compression. Certain contracts have clauses that the minimum their employees are paid is xx above minimum wage, so compression resulted in further increases with these being passed onto owners. Small businesses really took a double hit with increased labour costs and increased fuel. Many small businesses shut down with some restaurant chains pulling out of Alberta. The answer from one MLA was that if a business could not absorb these extra costs without passing them on they should not be in business.

I put this background up as I believe the current Liberal and NDP MP's are all economic illiterate’s and have no idea what it takes to run a business or a family budget let alone a country. They are totally clueless on flow through costs and these costs compounding to the end buyer.

The carbon tax refund as being implemented in Canada is a wealth redistribution --- simply buying votes on the low end of the income scale.

All the best from a cool and soon to be wet Alberta

Hugh, I get a check for $201 every few months, I guess for the carbon tax refund. I’m certainly not low income.

However, I’d rather the bastid let me keep my money in the first place instead of sending a small portion back to me.

Wannabewana --- if you check the video from Brian Lilley (first link I provided) at the 2:19 mark there is an excellent chart that show the breakdown by quintile on net cost for the 5 income groups in Canada.

Our houshold recieves a small amount every few months as well. This amount does not come close to covering the defined carbon taxes we see on home heating, power and the increase in vehicle fuel. Prices on everything we use, eat or choose to do for recreation have gone up. I believe the PBO and the Bank of Canada have both stated that the CT is an inflationary pressure.

Plus there is the GST rip off of a tax on a tax. We never see any of that.

Prior to shutting my company down I was asked by clients what my rate increase would be due to the CT. So the only people that do not think there is an impact seem to be in Ottawa, having their salaries paid for by the taxpayers.

I just want this government to go away for a long long time. The problems they have created will take a generation to fix.

Hugh;
Good evening to you sir, I trust this finds you well and prepared for whatever weather is headed your way.

Thanks for the replies and links.

There's not much that Brian Lilley puts out that doesn't end up in my feed, for sure he knows numbers and can make sense of what is actually happening - and then explain it in an intelligent, understandable manner.

Your statement about the NDP folks not being able to grasp simple economic, well mathematical concepts truly Hugh, doesn't surprise me as much as confirms my suspicions.

Lately I've been giving a lot of thought to how truly disconnected from reality many seem to be.

In particular it's vexing how little people grasp the process which brings their daily bread to their table, you know?

Somehow they can't make the connection between the Door Dash or Skip the Dishes driver and the folks who grew the food or milked the chickens as it were.

That's become a bit of a focal point with me as a result Hugh, a windmill to tilt at if you will, me attempting to have people understand where supper came from.

Hopefully we're not too late Hugh and we can repair the damage so our kids and grandkids have something functional when we're gone.

All the best and thanks again for the posts.

Dwayne

Excellent conversation gentlemen!

You’ve covered the bases well. I’ll just add that the BS spewed by the carbon tax crew is only successful because most people do not understand economics nor do they bother to do any additional research.

About the not making the connection on where food comes from; a former neighbor of our does financial planning and a large number of his clients are farmers. At a family gathering one of his nieces said “why are you so worried about farmers? If they go broke we will just go to the grocery store for food”. The young lady is in her early 20s.

In short

Carbon tax and gst on carbon tax sucks.
Justin and his minions need to go.
Take every chance you can to educate people about reality.

All the best gents.

Hard to watch, but this is what these guys think. I do wonder if this debate is a distraction from other issue's such as the myriad of scandals, the Liberals are involved?? Out of control immigration is one I can think of, anyways......the Turd runs away near the 8 minute mark, what an infantile fool he truly is.

673;
Morning my friend, hope all is well as can be with you and yours up to the north.

Moose on the Loose seems to be a decent young fellow for the most part and certainly does dig up some gems.

Between him, True North, Northern Perspective and some of Rebel's stuff as well, they can surely excavate dirt.

Just watched Harrison Faulkner on True North interview Eddie Cornell who is suing the government, the PM and some cabinet ministers personally and several banks and credit unions over the unlawful and extrajudicial seizure of assets. If you have time for that one it's sobering to say the least.

For sure though there seems to be a few themes I'm seeing from Socks and the Evil Minions.

One is that if they say it, it's happened, for example the air defense system we've donated to Ukraine which isn't even begun production, but they'll speak of it like it's there and working to defeat the Unspeakable Evil Empire. Same with some of the housing initiatives, where they act like people are moving in and there aren't even drawings to bid on.

The other seems to be that if we repeat the same line of astoundingly false, steaming BS over and over and then a few more times, well it must now be true, no?

There are a whole lot of balls in the air anymore are there not?

Well despite all that, we are going to keep pressing on for a favorable outcome because our kids and grandkids are depending on us and frankly we believe it's our duty.

I use "our" there sir as we've talked of this on the phone enough times that I believe I can say that.

All the best to you all for the rest of the week.

Dwayne

673;
Me again sir.

Here's a True North take on the immigration issue.



All the best.

Dwayne