Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Unusual Accuracy

Accuracy and precision are quite useful attributes.

Case in point: Due to a storm you no longer have running water or power. The toilet is full and you strained your back and can't sit down anyway. 1" hail is falling outside but your REALLY have to pee. Only container you can find is an empty gallon milk jug. If you put it on the table it's too high, so you place it on an upholstered chair. Your goal is to not get any on the upholstery. It can be done if you are both accurate and precise with your aim.

Here's a couple groups from a 358NM.

Dan can always count on you to bring a real world example😁👍!!

In science, specifically statistical analysis, accuracy and precision have two distinct meanings and if used interchangeably would lead to great confusion - when applied to rifle shooting they also “should” have two different meanings as some have pointed out. The dilution of language/meaning and specific meaning of words is concerning to some of us.

That all said - I had a scoped T/C Contender in .256 Winchester Magnum surprise the hell out of me with a five shot group at 75 yards less than 1/3”. A Marlin 1895 in .40-65 that would cut cloverleafs at 50 yards with factory irons and a Marlin 1894 in .22 Magnum that would group less than 1/4” at 50 yards for five shots with and old Weaver K-3 and the old Federal Sierra 30 grain hollow points (wish I would have bought cases of that ammo!!). Don’t know if they would do this all day every day and don’t really care - surprised me either way!

PennDog

back in the early to mid '90s, my dad (RIP) bought a TC Contender in a 14" muzzle brake in 7x30 Waters with a 2 1/4 or 2 1/2x Swift. it was his first specialty pistol, so he had to learn how to shoot again. he got a 1 - 1 1/2" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench) with a 115gr Speer HP and IMR4895. he would shoot it every day, except when it rains. he shot 10 -15 cartridges every day, spring, summer and fall. he took a 1 1/2" group to 1/4 - 1/2" group at 100 yards with the same load. i shot 1 1/2 - 1 3/4" group at 100 yards with the same load.

deer season came and he got a 6pt and a doe. nothing spectacular range wise, just 20-30 yards before the 115gr HP impacted the deer. i can't count the deer he killed with the 7x30 Waters. the only thing bad about the Waters is the muzzle brake. you could see the concussion wave after he shot and unless you are directly behind him, the concussion will make your eyes water and the ears will go deaf with eyeglasses and ear plugs. without them you go deaf for about 20 minutes with an eeeeeeeeee sound that just doesn't quit. i know, i was standing on side about 5 feet away when i got it.

i've gotten his guns and altho i like 7x30 Waters and the muzzle brake, i wound use it. he always told me about the 30 Herrett, so i bought one and another barrel. 30 and 357 Herrett in 10" barrels and a 22 Hornet in a 10" Contender barrel.

I showed this a few years ago and thought would post it again... This is a Remington 141 in 30 Remington. I had experienced very good accuracy while sighting it in with a low power hunting scope and thought I'd see what it would do. I put a scope on it that I usually only use when I'm having problems with a rifle and need a scope that will let me get the most out of the rifle.

That old Remington pump will out shoot, or at least keep up with, most of the bolt actions in my safe.



Three shots at 100 yards. I'm happy with it!

Laughing out loud!

You might want to read this history of the Oxford English Dictionary--
https://www.oed.com/information/about-the-oed/history-of-the-oed/?tl=true.

This might modify your notion that "The dilution of language/meaning and specific meaning of words is concerning to some of us."

All modern languages are living and hence changing. Even in Germany, where it's supposedly frozen in time by an official board of language, they're still waffling on whether ALL nouns should be capitalized, instead of just proper nouns, the tradition in English.

Just because certain disciplines, whether benchrest shooting or statistical analysis, have their own specialized meanings doesn't mean that's the ONLY meaning for certain words. (I am quite familiar with statistical analysis, due to my years as a wildlife biology major--as was my mother when doing the research for her Ph.D. on behavioral analysis.)

You also might check the rest of the posts on this thread, and add up how many involve group size as a definition of "accuracy." This is a good example of "common usage."

In certain urban settings, imprecise use of a word can be taken as disrespect, such that the word “incoming” will take on a very precise and intense meaning.

Winchester 43 in 22 Hornet with a Weaver K6. 100 yd. 10 shot groups under 1" consistently, with the occasional flyer, using Winchester 46gr factory hp. Wont shoot the Remington 45 gr SP worth beans. Go figure.

Exchipy shows a great example of accuracy vs. precision. Accuracy is hitting what you are aiming at, and he did that well. This is an example that demonstrates the difference between the 2:


The guy showing a pic of a one hole group, but not hitting what he's aiming at, is a great example of "precision" of the rifle, because of the tight group. However, that's not the same thing as "accuracy". Trying to bend the words to suit ones own needs, is what's wrong with this f'd up world. Some of us tire of that woke kind of bs...

I use that same image to teach statistics at university level.

I also make sure that the students know that I am a shooter!

/John

I have an old lever 45/70 that shoots into one hole every time I go to the range. It's also extremely efficient on ammo useing only one round per range trip

IME, most guys on "sight-in" days, would take the top left target, no matter the size at 50 yrds, and call it "good enough".
After all, one is in the center. Accuracy vs precision would make their eyes cross.

I have an old H&R single shot 30-30 I bought cheap with zero expectations but it shoots pretty amazing.

The H&R/NEF 30/30s I've had were all good
shooters. All the Marlin 30/30s I've used did
as good. No gotaways

Appreciate the insight John - However, I tried not to use any ABSOLUTES in my statement only that the two have a definitive meaning in the world I was trained in……as an evolutionary ecologist I understand that ALL parts of our world are evolving and that languages indeed are a part of that.

…….and the common usage of accuracy (in the world of rifle shooting) is certainly a dilution.

PennDog

No offense but I wouldn't call 1.5" groups "accurate" regardless of the action type or caliber. I've had a few lever guns that would consistently group 3/4" with handloads.

Had a similar experience. Had bought a 141 Rem in 35 rem from a member here and sighted in at 50yds open sights. Hit dead center with factory Hornady 160gr FTX ammo. This was done at my buddies ranch and he said "see if can hit the 200yd plate!" I sat down on the ground old school style cradled the rifle and bang right dead center! My buddy was like how much you want for that rifle lol. Told him it's not for sale. Ended up shooting an Axis with it later on the day.

had a pair of Ruger 77's in 7 x 57. These two rifles could must a 5 inch group at 100 yds on their best day at the range.

Was about to chuck one in the river and rebarrel the other to a 6mm Remington.

Don't know why, but a load in a reload manual jumped out at me. I think it was an older Hornady manual I had.
Took it out to the range, not expecting much. That didn't happen THIS TIME. I got a 5 shot group that was half an inch.
What the hell???

Don't recall the bullet weight, but the charge was 40 grains of 3031, and the bullet was either 160 or 175 grainer, one of the heavier ones. Thought this was a fluke, so I went home loaded up some more and took them back to the range, the next day. SAME RESULTS! Half inch group. Well one going in the river and the other getting rebarreled, was put on hold.

Both rifles gave the same results, with the 40 grains of 3031. I tried the same load on bullet weights from 130 grain Speers right up to the 175 grain bullets from Hornady, Sierra, Remington and Winchester IIRC. Every one of them shot small groups, 1/2 an inch or less for 5 shots.

One of our members in PA asked if I'd sell one to him, so I let it go, with full disclosure, that it shot like a blind kid with a slingshot, EXCEPT when ya use 40 grains of 3031. Guess you can figure out what load and powder that rifle has survived on over the last 25 years or so. I think it was Moose Mike, that the other one went to... Don't know if he still has it, but the brother of it that still resides here in Oregon... still keeps turning in 1/2 inch groups with that charge of 40 grs of 3031, REGARDLESS of the bullet weight or brand of bullet.... and IT STILL WON'T shoot anything else in under a 5 inch group.

Weird, but I don't question what is successful and works.

The other 7 x 57 I have is a Model 70 Featherweight. Paid $300 for that one also. Guy sold it because he could never find ammo for it. For the $300, it even came with a Nikon 3 x 9 scope in Leupold mounts with it. Guess the guy just wanted to get rid of it. That rifle thinks it is a varmint rifle.... It'll shoot anything I feed it, regardless of load or powder, or bullet weight, or bullet brand... all into small groups. The Nikon got replaced with a Leupold 3 x 9 with a German # 1 Reticle, just rounding out the Teutonic theme of the 7 x 57. In fairness the previous owner had it glass bedded and had a trigger job done on it. its one of my rifles I'll own on the day I die. Then its my son's, to do with what he desires. He really isn't a hunter, so I hope it finds a good loving home, when that day comes.