Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Price check on 1946 model 70

A good tell tale sign that the rifle was probably made in '42, as Rule states on page 50, I believe, is the barrel that is stamped "41".

https://postimg.cc/gallery/NL9fC9v

Link for more pics

Pics

Iskra it has the loading clip function but it is covered by the scope base.

Thanks for posting the link with the better pics. I could zoom in a little better. It looks like an $850-$900.00 rifle to me. Again, it's a pre war rifle made in 1942. The bluing looks to be original, as does the stock finish. The safety lever is a Buehler style, which was a very common "upgrade", on these pre war rifles, where they intended to use a scope. The rear bridge was not drilled and tapped as someone suggested with only one hole. It appears they used the common and more modern .860" hole spacing for the rear scope mount. Thus, making it impossible to use a one piece mount, like someone had suggested. The hole locations are unlike any other model 70 era. Which also includes the post war H&H rear scope mounts. I'd be willing to bet that is the case anyway, just by looking at the pics. My only concern is how everything lines up, and if it's in perfect alignment with the bore axis. I'd throw a set of dual dovetail mounts and rings on there, and check ring alignment. If you are stuck with the rear windage type mount only, that is a huge downfall. I know, there are guys that have used them for years, but I don't like them. They are weak by design. It also doesn't have the original rear sight. The original rear sight would add another $120.00 to the value of the rifle. They likely did this because it was set up to run a modern scope. I already mentioned the wood removed for an aperture sight, but what they removed is very odd looking. That is my best assessment of the rifle. It should make a fine hunter, if the bore is in good shape.

All you have to do is use the “share” icon on your account and copy them and put them in here…

Well we will have to agree to disagree. I spoke with one of the top three model 70 collectors in the country (probably more accurately world) and he says it is a preWar gun built in 1946. No wiggle room. He said Polishing Room records only apply as to when the receiver was serialized, nothing more. The accepted dates of manufacture are what is in that chart. He said the 1941 barrel is most likely original but that doesnt mean much because of the big disruption of WW2. He says 1946 period. He was a major contributor to Rules book.

The key word in this is Accepted. I know that I used to have, probably 40 years ago, a small card stock pamphlet from Winchester that had many models serialization in it, 70s, 42s, 12s, etc. Those dates jived with the chart in the Riflemans Rifle. I would like to see an earlier 338 with a 1956 receiver run through the Polishing Room records.

What is the disagreement? Your expert didn’t call it a transition; and PJ didn’t say it was assembled in 1942.

I’m out

I called it a Transition when the serial appeared 61480 to my eyes computer. Once a clear picture of the serial number was presented as 51480, I went back and edited my post admitting my error. I did not change what I had originally posted, I added an ETA to it.

I knew a fellow who worked for Remington and Savage up in NYS. He was a custom gunsmith on the side and after he retired. He specialized in Newton Calibers and built them on pre64 Winchesters. You would not believe the number of 1941 dated model 70 takeoff barrels he had. I never saw a 1942, or 1943 barrel, however I saw a couple of 1944 dated barrels in his stash. My friend bought all of those Win 70 barrels from his estate. He made a fortune on them. He still has a couple, mostly with issues left.

Now, that is a ton better!!!!!

Gentlemen-

There's no need to "agree to disagree" b/c everyone here is saying the same thing...

FWIW... The production figures in Table 2-2 of Roger's book, was well as those on the Winchesterguns.com (FN/Browning) website, are from research done by George Madis using surviving WRACo documents in the Cody Firearms Museum. These source documents are available as digital copies via the McCracken Library at CFM (in the MS20 collection, if anyone wants to look them up).

The challenge Madis faced in his research is that there are no records of M70 production by serial number, nor are there internally consistent records of the actual number of rifles MANUFACTURED by year in the pre-war period. Madis compiled most of his figures from “Net Orders Received” reports (NOT guns manufactured) from the pre-war years and Shipping Department records from the 1950s onward (guns SHIPPED, not guns MADE). So his numbers for different years are pulled from documents reporting on different aspects of the gun business. They are not “Serial Numbers Assigned” as the title of the Madis/Rule table suggests. The serial numbers were "assigned" in the polishing room when the receiver was prepared for bluing, and receivers were not necessarily used in sequence to assemble rifles. Sbrmike's example of early Alaskans is a good one. Short Magnum receivers originally made to build Africans in 1956-57 languished until finally being used to build Alaskans in 1959. That doesn't mean that the PR dates are "wrong", just that PR date and date of rifle manufacture are different things.

It's interesting to note that while Madis chose to use "Net Orders Received" for his pre-war production figures, there is another document, an internal memo to Mr. Olin dated January 15, 1944, in which figures are given (by Model) for gun PRODUCTION over the prior five years (1939-1943). Presumably these figures reflect actual firearms manufactured, not "orders received" or "shipped". For G70C (all styles/calibers, there's no breakdown) the numbers are: 1939 (4372), 1940 (5,507), 1941 (9878), 1942 (8,278), and 1943 (324). Compare these to the Madis/Rule 2-2 figures based on "Orders Received" which are: 1939 (6,147), 1940 (7,684), 1941 (10,078), 1942 (7,453), and 1943 (777). One would hope that factory employees generating a report for Mr. Olin would have at least tried to get the numbers right...

This is NOT to say that anyone is "wrong", just that reliable figures don't appear to exist and "estimates" (like those of Madis) based on "Orders Received", "Rifles Shipped", or summative reports to CEOs, are not consistent with one another. Should also be noted that Madis’ research was conducted BEFORE the Polishing Room ledgers were discovered. His estimates were the best that could be done without actual production records, but for many Winchester Models, including the M70, they are inaccurate (often by a considerable margin). Consider that Rule's Table 2-1, which is derived from PR records, contradicts his own Table 2-2, which is derived from Madis.

Once there was agreement in this thread that the S/N of the subject rifle is 51480 (1942 PR date) there's no controversy... The receiver was made in September 1942. The rifle was manufactured sometime later. Madis' figures, based on "Net Order's Received" indicate that the 51,480th M70 was made in 1946. Whether the 51,480th M70 manufactured bore S/N 51480 is unknown, and to my knowledge, unknowable...

Best...
Lou

P.S. Sbtmike- If you'd care to name your "top three" expert, I'd like to know... I bet I know him/her...

I never asked him permission to post his name. You very well should know him. There was no wiggle in his answer. I put all of these arguments to him. The real issue to me is value if this was a pristine collectible example. See what a bonafide 1942 model 70 brings and compare that with a 1946. WW2 guns bring a premium.

I do not see where we are all saying the same thing. We all say the polishing room shows it serialed in 1942. I agree with the accepted by the industry and Winchester serialization chart. It may have issues but it is the accepted standard.

ETA: I wish I had ended this at no asking permission. The rest of this post should be disregarded. It is not fact based, it is a combination of emotions, opinions, bad memory exception. I am confusing Harley WW2 values with M70. I also shouldnt have said top 3 model 70 collectors. I have no way of knowing that, possibly nobody knows. He is high on the list for sure.

For further discussion:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...odel-70-30-gov-t-06.cfm?gun_id=102640484

I always like to check proof mark alignment. Generally they are pretty spot on. On that rifle, they appear to be out of alignment. Thus, there is reason to believe that barrel has been changed out. A great example of a fairly original looking specimen though.