Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Phil Shoemaker - A Bear Pistol Question:

+1, there's no substitute for that level of experience.

30 years ago I had a Freedom Arms 454 with 4-3/4" barrel. I got quite good with it - the Bisley grip really does work if you roll with the recoil! However, thinking it through, I decided I'd rather carry something with more repeatability for follow-up shots, so I switched to a 4" 357 Ruger Securtiy Six with hardcast LBT's. After that I bought a Glock 19 and found the 147 Buffalo Bore hardcasts, reasoning it would be easier to hit more quickly than even my 357.

My evolution in thinking came to me through just reasoning it out. However it's far more interesting and authoritative to hear someone truly "expert" on the subject who came to the same conclusions based on real-world experience, not just guessing like I did! A really fine youtube interview, thanks for sharing your time and experience - very enlightening.

In viewing the three or four threads currently running on this subject it is quite obvious why Mr. Shoemaker has “grown weary” of all the “bear experts” chiming in with their handgun opinions.

People who wouldn’t even qualify for a fraction of one percent of Phil’s experience choose to claim they know better. Sheesh!

I hope I haven’t been one of them too much!

Well said Brad. I carried a Ruger Redhawk 5.5" barrel 44 magnum when I was in Kodiak nearly 30 years ago. If I had to go back, it'd be my Glock Model 40 10mm, or perhaps even a 20, for a little better portability. I was good enough with a no stress, controlled, first round shot with the Redhawk. Having read accounts like Phil's and engaged in a little honest self-review, I'd be much better served with the Glock.

Exactly. Don't blame Phil one bit.

Ignorance comes from lack of knowledge, very unlike stupidity, which comes from an incapacity to learn.

Another one well said.

It seems to me that the person in this thread most fixated on caliber is you. We have a subject matter expert offering 45 years of experiential wisdom who challenged the conventional wisdom, tested his hypothesis against skulls, bones, and man-made materials to the point of confidence, and then had the unfortunate twist of fate to have to prove it for real under life-threatening conditions. While it is an example of one, it sure proved the viability of the thesis. Caliber is but one variable among many that can influence an outcome. I am grateful that authoritative sources are willing to share their actual experiences with the rest of us.

So a guy that been living with the bears for 45 years, numerous encounters per year, guiding clients with varying degrees of marksmanship, and killing an 800 lb grizzly at feet with a 147/9mm hard cast - and you arrive here?

Ok.....

I'd be curious if you ever shot your large bore, loaded warm hand cannon rapid fire at close range. You must be way better than most people I've seen do that drill.

Hunting is not close range reaction at a moving target. I'll take lead on target vs alot of noise. Maybe muzzle blast will singe their lips closed?

Did you watch the OP attached ballistic test vid?

Considerably more that a spitwad's difference, especially RE: the denim/MDF intermediate barrier test, if penetration is king.

- 30% more velocity (1314 fps)
- 70% more energy (536 fpe)
- 37% more penetration (25")

The Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP .357Sig load - hits at 100 yards, what the 9mm load does at contact range.




GR

800 lb BROWN bear - not a GRIZZLY
1250 fps is not warm - 1450 fps is.
This isn't about hunting an unsuspecting animal it is about stopping a charge.
I'll take big lead penetration over magazine capacity EVERY time. Send your 9mm/10mm pet load into the skull plate of a griz. Then we can talk penetration

I watched/listened to the video last night while grilling supper for the family. I enjoyed it thoroughly and I realized how blessed Phil must feel having raised such a great family in paradise. Knowing that they’re following in the footsteps of a legend is the icing on the proverbial cake.

Thanks Phil for sharing your EXPERIENCE!

Thanks cowboybart for the laugh…. I got several hearty chuckles from your hypothetical postulations…..if 1450fps is “warm” from a pistol/handgun I’m humorously curious as to what you consider HOT from a handgun? Appreciate the unintentional “humor” irregardless.

A 475 Linebaugh with 420 grain hard cast can be loaded to 1400 FPS. I know this for a fact BTDT. 1200 FPS is much easier to shoot and still very effective.
The 500 JRH with a 440 grain flat point hard cast at 950 to 1000 FPS is extremely effective also.

Phil believed the 9mm with flat point Hardcastle would work and he proved correct.

Thanks to Phil for sharing your experiences here.

For what it’s worth, I have killed many wild hogs with handguns testing lots of different loads.

The best 9mm loads are far more effective than anything smaller and kill nearly as quickly as the largest handgun loads.

Oh I know external ballistics quite well which is why I’m curious as to what cowboybart considers “HOT” if 1450fps is merely warm from a handgun ? I also have to laugh when someone says that 1250fps isn’t enough but 100fps more IS enough….😂….or a hardcast bouncing off and deflecting from a bears rib. Bears are big critters but their bones are NOT exceptionally big or heavy when compared to some other animals.

FWIW….Phil’s 147gr hardcast was doing approximately 1100fps, not 1350fps but it still got the job done….without bouncing off or deflecting. In fact it went THROUGH and was found just under the hide on the off side!

So again….if 1450fps from a handgun is “warm” then what does it take to reach the vaunted “HOT” status?

Like I said in my first post on this thread, I truly appreciate Phil’s real world experience! My question is directed at this thread’s comedic expert, cowboybart. 😉

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that John Linebaugh respected Phil's opinion on how to kill big bears. I personally have heard him say exactly such a thing about Phil.

I can also say John L never killed a brown bear or grizzly with a handgun or any gun and never stopped a fight with a bear. I don't believe he ever killed even a black bear with a handgun.

I can speculate with good reason that John L would have understood exactly why a hard cast flat point bullet at 1100fps would offer enough penatration to effectively kill a large brown bear.

You're way out over your skies here and would do well to post less and read more.

The 147 Hardcastle that Phil used exhibited adequate penetration and most definitely got the job done.

More penetration would ot have mattered, since the 147 grain hard cast completely penetrated the vital organs

John,

Very interesting!

I only met John Linebaugh once, but we talked on the phone a few times--which was always interesting.

John

Have you ever BEEN charged by a grizzly/brown? Were any of those people who "never cleared lever" mauled?

Here I'll essentially repeat something I recently posted on another website, along with some more details.

I was born and raised in Bozeman, Montana when it was 1/10th the size it is now, when there weren't many grizzlies--partly because back then the season was open year-round, and anybody who had a Montana hunting license could kill one, then pay a $25 fee to the game department. This was 90 miles from Yellowstone Park, and there were a few grizzlies around. Saw my first one at 8 years old--and a friend who was a year behind me in school killed a big boar about a dozen miles from Bozeman, with one head-shot with a .25-35, when he was 12.

Mentioned earlier that I have encountered so many grizzlies in Montana since then that I've lost count. This includes areas in and around the Bob Marshall Wilderness, just south of Glacier Park. Have yet to be charged by any Montana grizzly, even though when hunting my good friend, the late Richard Jackson, when we encountered a mature boar at around 30 feet while sneaking through the narrow trails on a big, overgrown clearcut in the southern Bob around 30 years ago. The boar looked directly at us for a few seconds (we didn't move) then turned and walked away into the brush. We could hear it breaking through branches as it headed away. That is as close as I've come to a "charge" here. (Oh, and on that hunt saw just as many grizzlies as black bears.)

My old friend Bill McRae, the noted wildlife photographer, lived in a small town along the Rocky Mountain Front where the grizzly population was the highest in Montana--outside of Glacier and Yellowstone Parks. He killed a boar grizzly while hunting with his kids during the "year-round" season, but was never charged--while also encountering dozens of grizzlies.

I've hunted or fished in grizzly/brown bear country a lot outside Montana and Wyoming (where I lived in Lander for a while), including seven trips to Alaska, and about as many to grizzly country in Canada, including northern Alberta and British Columbia, and twice in the Northwest Territories, and also twice in Nunavut Territory--which borders the west side of Hudson Bay, the furthest east grizzlies live. Have encountered a bunch of grizzly bears, including the smaller Arctic subspecies, which are considered even more aggressive than the larger grizzlies further south.

Have been charged twice--both times on Kodiak Island, by those supposedly less aggressive brown bears. In each instance it was a sow with cubs--both of which "bluff-charged" until their cubs climbed the hill behind her.

Could tell plenty of other stories about close encounters, but also might ask you to describe your actual up-close experience with grizzlies--or brown bears.

A huge factor I was considering during the entire bear episode was , where were my friends/clients ? And were they in danger of a bullet passing through and hitting them ? A guide shooting a client is a bad career move, and if they also happen to be friends it’s inconceivable!
All those thoughts were in my mind before I began shooting !
I had a Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh I could have been carrying, as well as my S&W 44 Mtn Gun stuffed with 320 gr BB loads. Both of those are much better hunting handguns, but would have been the worst things to use under the circumstances