Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Phil Shoemaker - A Bear Pistol Question:

John,

Based on a lot of discussion with John Linebaugh, I moved to Cody to work with him doing rifles, I don't think he would be the least bit surprised that Phil killed a big bear with the 147gr FP as loaded by Tim Sundles/BBA. It would be completely "on brand" for his ideas of heavy for caliber cast bullets with flat points being very effective on game.

John L was familar with many gun writer bylines and Phil was pretty famous for the .458 Win Mag and brown bears. Again that was pretty much on brand for Linebaugh. I personally heard him speak highly of Phil's writing from that late 1980s early 1990 period of G and A. Phil's use of the 30-06 and heavy Partitions is another idea that fit with John's philosophies on bullet performance on game. John read Bells works on killing elephants with moderate rounds and long bullets.

He might have been a bit more of a Taylor/Keith guy but like us all he kept learning and when nobody was around he admitted the good ol .270 Win with a decent bullet killed elk just fine.

Funny how those who shoot a bit all seem to come pretty close on what works and what does not and shot placement is the most important variable.

John

Having skinned the occasional bear head over a lot of years I made an amazing discovery! A bigger bear has a much heavier head!

Having cut a lot of bone over those years, from lots of different critters an equally amazing fact showed up. Not all bone is equal. Some like caribou is very hard, fairly thin, but quite brittle. Mountain goat is thicker, less dense, and slightly softer. And I could go on about many others.

Big bears are interesting because the bones are significantly softer, medium density, and extremely tough. I have posted a picture of an orange-handled knife on the opposite side of a cleaned (but wet) Kodiak bear scapula. It is thin enough to make out color... and shape.

A betting man would put his money on a Yellowstone grizzly skull every time for putting up the least resistance to bullets... or lose a lot of money.

Thanks.

If I recall correctly, the last time we talked on the phone he invited me to a "gun writer" get-together, partly because it wasn't that long a drive for me.

But he always impressed me as promoting his revolvers as hunting handguns--and they obviously worked on a number of grizzlies. But don't know if he would have suggested long-barreled single-actions them as perfect for bear defense....

John

It is my understanding the shots were just behind the shoulder and through the ribs. This would be the short route to get to the vitals bypassing the larger muscles and bone. I wonder if the shots were head on what the result would have been. I fully understand Phil was put in a hell of a spot and did amazing with the tool he had in hand at the time.

Plasma rifle, 40 watt range; or maybe a hand phaser. Short of these, I’ll still need to pack clean undershorts.

John L carried a S&W 25 most all the time. 4 inch barrel and loaded with 250-280gr bullets @ something like 1100 fps or so. He lived on Line Creek and that is Grizzly country.

I can say he was confident such loads would zip though a bears noggin from any angle. He was not a fan of big recoil when he was actually the guy pulling the trigger.

I knew John rather well and this is spot on.

John originally was a proponent of a 420 grain flat point hard cast in the 475 Linebaugh at 1400 FPS, but as time went on he came to the conclusion that 1200 FPS was much easier to shoot and perfectly effective. Dustin Linebaugh used a 1200 FOS load to take an 8' bear in Alaska at if memory served 176 yards with a 4 5/8" barrel.

John Linebaugh said that these big bore handguns were long range punch presses and once you put a hole through them you had done all you could

That's interesting. I think I have seen you mention that before.
I grew up around Montana and Idaho grizzlies. Been bluffed few times by them, plus once more by an interior mountain griz up north. I also have had several Arctic grizzly encounters on the North Slope but was never really in a situation where I felt threatened by them. The big bears I have seen and been around on Afognak Island and the Penninsula haven't given me any trouble, even when I happened upon them chewing on my elk or caribou, or dragging meat away from camp, which has happened.

I'm not doubting your experience, but am saying that mine has been different.

Regardless, I've been humbled several times by how close a bear can be before realizing they're around...both interior griz and coastal brown bears.

How many people could there possibly be that had much experience using handguns to stop grizzly attacks? I’d think that after one or perhaps two such rodeos, a fellow would change tactics, or maybe leave the area, or hire security, or something!

Interesting discussion. It could have gone a totally different way if the bear reached down and took a couple of bites out of the clients faces before it ran off and died.

I’m a fan of any double action handgun capable of shooting heavy for caliber hard cast slugs. I prefer a high cap 9mm for a car gun, a .38 +P for pocket carry, and a .41 Rem Mag for bear country. A .41 is about all that I can handle for rapid fire follow up shots

I watched the Spomer YT video this evening. Very informative. I carry a high capacity 9mm with 147's for black bear defense. Not the same thing I know but blackies are the only frame of reference I have

Phil, do you feel that the 9mm/147 BB combo would have still been effective if you had shot the bear facing you, as opposed to it being broadside?

I see you acknowledged: “were they in danger of a bullet passing through and hitting them”, which was exactly my thought when you mentioned that you couldn’t see your clients/friends. It is one argument against wanting complete penetration.

I am glad the situation worked out as it did…it easily could have ended differently if any one of these factors being discussed were different.

It would have been interesting.
As I could hear the bear charging through the pucker brush coming toward us I was wishing for my 458 and thinking that I would be lucky to even get in a single shot

Phil:
Just to ask a question, I test hard cast pistol bullet penetration in compressed dry newspaper since central Texas is lacking in either brown, grizzly or black bears. We do however, have feral pigs in profusion. My .45 super at 250 gr/1050 fps load gets complete hog penetration from most angles.

What range of dry paper penetration does your hard cast .357/9mm load get?

Thank you for the wonderful insights that you bring to these discussions.

Would like to hear your field results with those guns and loads.

I also would be interested in what is considered adequate penetration in dry paper, stacked magazines, etc. I cast bullets and handload and would like an easily available yardstick to assess how my loads measure up.

Thanks

Thanks, Phil, for that information, plus the information in your video. I've never been charged by a bear, Grizzly or Black. I'll take all the information I can get from experienced hunters.

L.W.

Back around 10 years ago got back late from shopping in the Soo with Yolanda to run the baits and then go bear hunting….it was early October and I didn’t have any clients for the late season it was my turn to hunt…helped her unload the truck and got ready quick put the bait buckets on the 4 wheeler and took off….had 3 baits to put out before I could hunt the last one…first bait I wasn’t going to hunt so drove the 4 wheeler to the bait…unbolted the bait barrel lid on the 55 gallon barrel poured the bait in and was re-bolting the lid when I caught move meant over my left shoulder turned my head and a bear was running about 50 ft away right towards me I turned and drew my pistol firing two shots with the bear stopping about two feet from me face down dead…
Thats when I felt the adrenaline rush what had happened I always carry my S&W 4″ 629 that day in such of a rush I forgot didn’t change guns and had my Kimber 45 ACP loaded with Hornady 230 gr. Hydra-Shoks…hit the bear just a little above and dead center of its eyes then a little off center in front of the ears and to the top of the head….I really don’t remember aiming at all just drawing the gun and pulling the trigger there was smoke coming off the bear from the gun shots….
I’ve see bears many times around the baits but never when I drove the 4 wheeler to it….never had a bear ever give any sign of aggression they would see me and run…was lucky I had drawn a permit that year….one of the few bears I have mounted just a shoulder mount with its ears back and mouth open but a reminder of what could have happened….

Never been in Brown Bear country, but hopefully I will someday and this thread has been most informative and has changed my mind. I used to think a 44 mag or my 454 Casull was the way to go but not anymore. I think I will carry either a Glock 20 or a 31 with hard cast lead. The two big bores are fine if one is HUNTING, but for close is work like Phil alludes to, a smaller caliber with good bullets and faster (much) follow up shots is the way to go.