Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Mule Deer - Give us your opinion

John,
I'd like you to give us your opinion on a few different bullets. I'll generalize by naming bullet only, not weight. Please comment on integrity, penetration, accuracy, cost/value, wound channel, any thing else you can think of.
I'd assume everone would choose the proper weight for the game..............

Here we Go!!




Remington Cor-lock RN
Remington Core-lock PSP
Winchester Power Point
Federal Hi-Shok
Hornady Interlock Spire Point
Hornady Interlock RN
Speer- Grand Slam
Speer Hot Core
Sierra Gameking
Sierra Prohunter
Hornady Interbond
and any other you'd care to add John.


I know this is a tall order, please answer when you can.............

Core-Lokt RN--Very fine, the only Core-Lokt that still ALWAYS has thick jacket sidewalls, so tends to hang together very well.

Core-Lokt PSP--The old Core-Lokt PSP was changed in the 1980's for easier production. The sidewalls are about as thick as those on most other "cup and core" bullets now, so the PSP acts about the same too.

The Winchester Powder-Point, Federal Hi-Shok, Speer Hot Core and Sierra Pro-Hunter all act about the same as the Core-Lokt PSP, because contruction is very similar. (The molten core in Hot-Cores doesn NOT make the core stick to the jacket.) All work pretty well if not driven to more than 2800 fps, especially on deer.

The Hornady Interlocks are a little better than the above, partly because they use a slightly harder core and partly because of the Interlock. But there is nothing to prevent them from expanding well back into the shank, so if they hit heavy enough bone they don't penetrate exceptionally deeply either.

The Speer Grand Slam works about like the Nosler Partition, except that on average I haven't found the Grand Slam to be as accurate.

The Hornady Interbond (and the Swift Scirocco) works OK on deer, but because of the rapid expansion caused by the plastic tip, lacks penetration on heavier game.

The only bonded bullets I've seen that penetrate deeply are the Nosler AccuBond (designed to act like Partition, and it does), Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Swift A-Frame. But they all feature jackets that limit expansion to the front third of the bullet.

I am still undecided about the Norma Oryx and Remington Core-Lokt Ultra. So far both have penetrated farther than the Interbond and Scirocco, I would guess because they lack the plastic tip, which tends to make the Interbond and Scirocco expand VERY rapidly. The Oryx and Ultra tend to open more slowly, so even if they open wide and retain about the same amount of weight, they penetrate more deeply than the plastic tips. The CL Ultra, in fact, seems to penetrate almost as well as a Nosler Partition.

When the ultimate in penetration is needed, say on any game much over 500 pounds, I tend to go to old standbys and new wonder bullets such as the Trophy Bonded, Fail Safe, Barnes X and heavier Partitions. Right now I'd choose Partitions or Triple Shock X's over the other two, mostly because they don't foul barrels as much and tend to shoot more accurately.

By the way, there are some Trilple Shocks coming soon: 85 .243, 130 6.5mm, 200 .30, and 185 and 225 .338.

Sorry, I forgot the Sierra Game King.

This (and all other concentional boattailed bullets without bonded cores) are probably the sorriest excuse for a big game bullet I've ever seen. I've seen them lose their jackets at the ENTRANCE hole on deer. Yeah, you can kill stuff with them, with very careful bullet placement, but why risk it when something as cheap and simple as the Hornady Interlock works much more consistently?

The same comment applies to the Interlock boattails, by the way. Once saw a 117 from a .257 Roberts break up compeltely on the shoulder of a 110-pound muley doe. I would also say the same about the .30-and-under Nosler Ballistic Tips. They feature harder cores than they used to but still break up and do too many other strange things when striking game.

Some feel all of these bullets are fine for deer, most of the time. I tend to quit using any bullet that fails spectacularly, and once is often enough.

I'll add an example conerning the Sierra Game King. I once saw a small mule deer hit with a 165-grain Game King. The bullet was started at about 2850 fps from a 30-06. The deer was about 250 yards, and the shooter mis-estimated the range and aimed a little high, hitting the deer in the spine. Even at that range, the bullet came unglued, resulting in a basketball-size hole.

A shoulder shot with that bullet on that or a larger animal could have given serious problems.

Thanks for the quick reply John, your input is appreciated.

Thanks for the info! That 185gr XXX sounds like a winner!

John,
Thanks for the heads-up on the upcoming TSX's. Those 225gr/338's are really going to put some smiles on the faces of a few 338-Ultra owners I know. They will likely make my .340-Wby purr also, though I am so pleased with the accuracy/consistency of the 168gr TSX's at 3400 fps in my .300-Wby, that I was ready to sell all my other rifles and give away any bullets that weren't TSX's.

S.B.

Mule Deer,

Would you care to give your thoughts on one more bullet? I've heard some really brag on the Sierra Hollow Point GameKing. (I've never used it and actually I'm asking this question on behalf of my brother who has a box of 90g, 25 cal. HPs.....if I remember the weight correctly)

I called Sierra and they said the HP Gamekings have a much thicker jacket than the traditional GameKing. They claimed this delays expansion on impact giving more penetration.

My guess is it would be no better at retaining the lead core than any other GameKing once the bullet expands. Assuming expansion is delayed (as they claim), would this allow one to penetrate a shoulder reliably? What velocity range would work best?

HogWild

BTT

HogWild--

I just don't trust any Sierra bottail (or any other conventionally built BT) on game bigger than varmints. There's no reason for them to stick together on impact, despite the heavier jacket.

The except to this is the over-.30 caliber Nosler Ballistic Tips. Their jacket is so heavy that it outweighs the core. Even if the core leaves, they retain over 50% of their weight and often closer to 60%. I doubt that this is what Sierra is talking about, however.

The other part of the equation is that conventional hollow-points don't expand very reliably on game past a certain range. I used to shoot rockchucks with the 75-grain Sierra HP in a .257 Roberts. I could hit 'em out to 500 or even 600 yards, but past 300 expansion was VERY iffy. When Nosler brought out the Ballistic Tip and Hornady the V-Max I quit the HP's forever.

If the hollow-point is made so it expands easily even at long range, then the jacket can expand too much at close range. Same deal as before: core leaves jacket, penetration stops.

There are too many other good bullets out there to put up with such goings-on.

I have heard that about standard GK's several times now. I don't doubt what is said about them, my question is why would Federal use them in there Premium line of ammo?

Also ... what is the hornandy Spire point? Is that the same as the interlock?

Thanks

Hog Wild-

Take this from the school of limited experience. I used the 90gr. Sierra to take my first whitetail buck with the 257 Robts. Shot was from about 40 feet broadside, I missed the ribs (they are accurate!) going in, nicked one going out, and was left with about a 1" exit wound.

Deer took off, but the area behind him looked like it was spraypainted red. It was a clean kill, but after doing the math, its pretty clear tht was luck as much as anything. I used a 117gr. Remington factory load for the next buck under similar conditions, and had the exact opposite problem - too little expansion (pencil holes in and out).

The old Sierra reloading manual I have shows a picture of an expanded 90 gr. HP taken from a deer, but in the caption they don't seem to endorse this bullet for medium game.

Cheers!

George,


Spire point is the shape of the nose. That is their sharp pointed bullets as opposed to their round nosed offerings. The interlock feature is found on most of their hunting weight bullets.

Same here but the range was 45 yds on a mulie doe. One entrance (no shoulder hit) and 3 exits. The jacket was found on the entrance wound skin!

Avagadro--

Like many of the better companies, Federal likes to give their customers a choice. They load Sierras in their premium line because many hunters and shooters are fixated on accuracy, plus small and essentially meaningless differences in ballistic coefficient. In addition, the loads with the Sierras cost less than those with Partitions, Trophy Bondeds, etc.

Probably 95% of the "big" game shot in North America is whitetailed deer, and probably 95% of those wouldn't weigh 150 pounds on the hoof. For such hunting Sierras work fine, especially for the folks who aren't terribly critial of bulet action and wouldn't know the difference anyway. And if a deer runs off wounded they blame it on their scope, cartridge choice or lousy luck anyway.

Mule Deer, I appreciate your insights and experience immensely.

I'm just trying to turn my head around this complete shift in thinking these days regarding bullet performance. For a number of decades I've been reading from gun writers that high BC bullets like the Gamekings and the Nosler Ballistic Tip were the ultimate hunting bullets for deer. Experts convinced ordinary readers like myself that we NEEDED these kinds of bullets if we wanted to be successful and/or cool.

Personally, I've had good results on deer with 165-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and Hornady Interlock Boattails out of the .30-06, but that doesn't diminish the incredible number of negative reports about boattail terminal performance I keep hearing posted on this and other forums. It's really a wonder why these bullets became so popular if they perform this badly.

I just wish we hadn't been sold a bag of goods about NEEDING these kinds of bullets in the first place.

P17--

Such bullets became popular not just because they work MOST of the time (a deer, after all, isn't usually much of a problem, especially if shot through the ribs) and tend to shoot smaller groups than some other bullets.

The accuracy angle has been promoted more and more over the years, but the truth is that any deer rifle that averages 1.5" or less for three shots at 100 yards is plenty accurate enough for 300-yard shots even at smaller deer. But big game rifle accuracy has become a major point of "Mine's bigger than yours" among many hunters. Half-inch groups may win status points at the range, but don't mean much in normal deer hunting.

The difference in ballistic coefficient also make good copy when some gun writer starts cranking, but the truth here is that a boattailed plastic-point will shoot maybe 2" flatter at 400 yards than a plain soft-nose spitzer flat-base started at the same velocity. In the real world this makes no difference either.

Much copy written for gun magazines is just filler, written by people with little field experience. Back when most loading manuals included wind-drift figures, I read at least a dozen articles in various magazines about how easy it is to shoot in the wind, using such tables. This only proved how little experience some gun writers have, since the only way to learn to shoot in the wind is to SHOOT IN THE WIND, not memorize tables.

Something of the same thing is going on with deer bullets. If you shoot enough deer, relatively fragile (but super-accurate and 2" flatter at 400 yards) bullets like the Sierra boattails, sub-.30 Nosler Ballistic Tips and Hornady SST's are going to come apart and not penetrate enough to kill cleanly. It may not happen with the first 5 deer, or 10 deer, or even 20 deer you shoot, especially if they're small enough. But eventually it will happen, especially if you hunt larger deer with a super-fast caliber.

A great many gun writers simply don't shoot enough deer to make such judgements. They shoot a few, possibly 100-pounders on a hunt in South Texas sponsored by a bullet maker, and proclaim some bullet the answer. But it only takes one bad incident to change any bullet from star to reject.

That's one of the best things I've read in a long time. Dead on.



After having a 130-gr. SST vaporize inside a doe at 120 yards (i.e. moderate impact velocity), it rings of the truth...loudly.



RSY

Mule Deer, I'm startin' to like you.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

But, as long as I go huntin' for 100 pound white tails I'm gonna be shootin' those bullets you don't like. Whisper voice on; (Cuzz they kill like lighting on them puny little critters.) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Me too. When I started shooting deer in the 50's Winchester Silver Tips were the absloute tops that you could get. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Had a brief fling with bronze points and then started loading my own with a Lyman 310 and a powder scale that I bought mail order from Herters. Best in the world, just ask them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> About the only powder was 4895 and Speer made bullets sometimes you could get Winchesters and then Sierra and Hornady came along. When the Nosler Bal Tip came along I was in heaven. They shot like a house afire in my rifle and killed like the black plague. Besides that they look cool and load easy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I am not going to shoot a Moose or an Elk or a Cariboo or a bear or a goatemokus. I am going to shoot Texas whitetails. I've yet to lose one out of how many God alone knows. There was a sretch of years there in the 60's when we could shoot five a year and I did. Killed them weighing from close to 265 # ( a monster for here ) to less than a 100, a good bit less. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I've shot them from just off the muzzle to a measured 425 yards, which is too far but it was a big deer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I learned a long time ago that shooting to break shoulders isn't necessary or even desirable. I also don't give a poop whether the bullet exits or not because where I put it the deer is going to be dead on the ground right there or very close. Yeah, I've had a few run forty yards with no heart left and I don't know how they do it either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
If the old Indians could kill deer with a spear and it is done regulary now with a bownarrer why do I need a super tough bullet at two and a half a pop to put one on the ground. In just a little over fifty years of deer killing now I've yet to be proven wrong.
Not argueing with Mule Deer, I like his writing and his notable lack of puff talk, or anyone else. If a shooter believes they need a platnum plated pill with a titanium tip to reliabley kill deer type game they probably do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Makes them feel better.
Bottom line and end of sermon: If you learn how and when to shoot and when to pass the shot I don't matter much what bullet you use.

BCR