Home Forums Gear Photography Camera Question, NIKON D80 or D300 vs Canon 40D

Ok, lurk in here often and look at folks photos and have a question about digital SLR's and proper choice. FYI I got one few days ago and am considering swapping out or upgrading with the store which is my option.

As for me, most of my history was film related. Was a photography major in college in the early 90's until I changed since it appeared digital would take over--at the time the dark room was one of my favorite places and the idea of no prints was simply sad. I have had and used/abused a couple Nikon F3HP's and a Nikon F100, but ultimately got rid of all my gear (except my enlarger and other darkroom stuff I have stashed in my folk's shed) and since have used a couple Canon Elph powershots and loved them. The older of the two has a couple hundred dives on it many below 100' using a canon factory housing. The second is my current camera I use for hunting and fishing.

So I am finally at a place where I want to take art quality photo's again and wanted to decide on a digital SLR. I love my canon point-n-shoots, and enjoyed beating the hell out of my dad's AE1 back in the day. But all my SLR experience has been with NIKON--and therein lies my comfort. So, when I picked up my recent camera, I got a D80. Now looking back, I am considering upgrading to the D300, but there seems to be a ton of Canon folks pushing the 40D. I will admit I like the controls on the Nikon's back more, but am open and know I will accustom to whatever I use.

So whats the deal these days? Which way to go.

Thanks,

Will

The Canon guys will tell you Canon, the Nikon guys will tell you Nikon. As neither, I may be able to make a point (or two).

Nowadays (not sure how this went with 35mm) you will choose a body to go with your lens collection, not the other way around. If you are going to buy OEM lenses (Canon or Nikon), then choose a body accordingly. If you are going to buy aftermarket lenses (like the Sigma EX line I'm partial to), then choose a body via secondary characteristics.

Nikon is widely rumored to use Sony sensors. To wit, studio tests like This one show virtually no difference between the Sony A700 and the Nikon D300. They probably have the same sensor. If the lenses are not going to be branded, it boils down to camera ergonomics (more or less).

The Canon 40D is the other in this class that is popular and compares similarly to the Sony A700, Nikon D300. (And I would recommend a body in this class from your stated goals).

"Stetson" and "VTi" are the Canon dudes. I have an Elan II 35mm but I'll let them dazzle you with the Canon and why you should own one -- which I'm gonna bet is heavily glass oriented (no offense guys, but we non Canon dudes gotta have our fun while we can)

Well, I like Canon and would never again shoot Nikon or invest in their system.

When it comes down to it, the proof is in the image pudding. Picture quality speaks for itself. Great images can be had with both systems, but starting fresh with a new system there is not a single good reason to stray from Canon.

Just my $.02

I know a couple of guys that ran out and bought the D300 based on the multi point AF etc. They have since switched back to Canon. Don't get sucked into measurebating statistics. Try to compare actual images. Remember the D300 is still a crop camera and runs $700 more than the 40D. In that price range I'll be expecting nothing less than full frame. I personally don't think you can make a poor choice between the two except for the drain on your wallet. You want to buy into a line of lenses. Not brand loyalty or bodies. Bodies will continue to update. Nikon and Canon will always be Ford Vs Chevy, Remington Vs Winchester. Personally I just love it when theese two compete for my $$$. Competition for consumers is a beautifull thing!

According to the specs on both cameras, (40D and D300), the Nikon has a larger area sensor.

There are those who will buy one, and revert to the other from both sides.. On Fredmiranda.com, I read just yesterday about two guys who had had very negative experiences with their Canon bodies and switched to Nikon.

You're right though, it's the same debate on Ford/Chevy type of thing.. Also agree that the lens is everything re: pix quality. With crap glass, no body from any manufacturer is going to make any better shots..

The EOS 5D seems to be roughly equivalent to the D300 but it's $600 higher in cost (according to the website)..

Still, it boils down to lenses, lenses, lenses....

Forgot to add: National Camera has the D300 on sale this weekend for $1649.. Happened upon the ad this morning...

Canon...

Please do not get confused. The 5D is a full frame sensor, with much larger photosites than the D300. They are nowhere near the same camera. The image quality that can be had from the D300 is not in the ballpark of the 5D.

That's not to say the D300 isn't a great camera, it is... but it's no 5D in the sensor dept. Plus, the 5D is Canon's 3 year old technology, and people are still comparing it to the (current) D300 LOL. The 5D will be replaced/upgraded soon too.

is the 1D their flagship and the 5D a step below ?? (don't know the line very well). I was under the impression their full frame camera were in the $5-7K range*


*trying to guesstimate the Sony full frame target price range...

The 1Ds Mark III is their flagship Full Frame camera. All the pro features included. It's an $8500.00 SLR

The 5D is basically similar to the 30D, but with a full frame sensor. It's a killer bargain in the Canon line, and many professional photographers use this camera instead of the 1D series if they do not need high fps, or weather sealing.

thanks for the clarification

Oh, but I am, and thoroughly... LOL Define 'full-frame sensor vs. the D300's sensor. But, on-screen, they seem to be actually quite close. Why, other than lenses?? Are the Canon lenses that much better in optics than the Nikon?

But if it's still being offered, isn't it a valid comparison?

Ok, I'll attempt to address some of these questions. LOL about the confused comment

A "full frame" sensor is basically just a term used that means it's full size relative to the older "35mm" film cameras. The full frame sensors are 36mm x 24mm in size. The D300 sensor is 24mm x 16mm, that's where the 1.5x crop factor comes in. So the 5D sensor is 2.25x larger than the D300 sensor (1.5 x 1.5), and much more expensive to produce, along with a bigger mirror and mirror box, and a different prism system needed. So with a 12mp 1.5x crop versus a 12mp "full frame", the photosites of the full frame sensor will be MUCH larger, and all things being equal will be of higher quality, and less noisy. They'll also have greater dynamic range. That's the reason the 12mp point & shoot cameras look like absolute [bleep] compared to any 12mp slr. The P&S sensor is about the size of your pinky fingernail, so the photosites are tiny. So pixel size is a major factor, that's why when stepping up to higher mp sensors, going full frame will yield a better looking image (again, all other things being equal).

The new Nikon D3 is a 12mp full frame (their first)... that's a better comparison to the 5D, but it's $5000.00.

Sure you could make a valid comparison, D300 to 5D, and yes it is still a current camera. My point was just that that's old technology for Canon (3yrs in dSLR's is a lifetime), if you compared the 5D to Nikon's slr's from 3 years ago it would be a joke, literally. Plus, Canon is due to upgrade that model before the end of the year.

I think I touched on most of it, but if you need any further clarification please let me know.

Rob

Ok, some understanding is beginning to sink in. The whole concept can be a bit overwhelming to someone who still remembers the 'Brownie'..

Hmmm, ok then, since a $5,000 camera's NOT gonna happen, and the 5D is 'old', is it still a good body for someone who's intent on this being the very LAST danged camera he's ever going to buy? Someone stated the 5D is a huge bargain for the bux, but it's still $2,300 alone and THEN the glass goes on the front..

I guess the bottom line is I really want to be in the $3,000 - $3,750 ballpark, and want the best I can get for that range which must include a great lens (ala 70-200 VR), bag, flash, chip, filter etc...

Ditto! I am going to step up this weekend, and am looking at the diff in glass now. As for glass quality, I always leaned towards Nikon, but I mostly used their older manual focus lenses.

In the hunt as well, after losing my 20D (don't ask!). Looking hard at the 40D, the 5D being very tempting, but too pricey at the moment (had to replace my laptop and a L lens as well ).

I'm sticking with Canon.

rb

There's no way you can go wrong with the 40D, 70-200/4L IS, 24-70/2.8L. This would run you about the same as the D300 and 70-200VR combo. WAYYYY more bank for the buck with the Canon system. You absolutely can't go wrong with this gear. Plus, you've got you friends here (me and others) that can be much more helpful getting you started with a Canon platform.

The 5D's are such a great camera for the money right now, but if a fellow's trying to build up a lens collection at the same time the money difference might be better spent on lenses.

In Rick case, the 5D might be the way to go since you already have some nice glass.

I guess what I gotta do is get to a camera shop tomorrow and lay my hands and eyeballs on each and compare.. Online comparisons of the 40D vs the D300 still show the Nikon to, IMHO, have the edge while fairly similar in price...

And I'm very aware of user bias as I'm guilty of it myself when comparing other rifles to Win. M70s... I own 'em, I build 'em and I just love that rifle.. Even though there's no doubt other rifles can perform just as well, if not better in some cases, there's just nothing like a M70... You Canon boys can appreciate this in your area, I know...

I will give honest consideration to both lines. I just have to get off the paper comparisons and do the hands-on tests..

I came into this without a clue or a bias a month ago. I bought the 30D and have absolutely no regrets. The controls on this camera are very well laid out and the design seems as user friendly as possible for human manipulation.

I've got no bias, just that I'm quite pleased with this pretty big expense, and have never second guessed it or had any buyers remorse.

You made the correct choice JJH, no question about it.

You need to handle theese in a camera shop if you have any confusion. There is a world of difference between a cropper and FF. The 5D should not be $600 more than the D300. Find a different dealer. I'm in Chicago right now but I'm sure I can find a 5D from a reputable dealer for $2-300 less than that. The D300 is nice but I think you really need to know EAXACTLY what you are after before you invest $1800 in a body. IMO this is where Canon shines. The 40D can be had for $1100 + freight. $700 is a major price difference for a couple of features and a lick and a promise that Nikon is going to bring out some new glass.

Ok,: hands-on report.. I went to National Camera Exchange in St. Paul, MN., yesterday.. Started out by telling the guy that I was considering a new camera and I had narrowed the choices down to Nikon and Canon. I said a couple of camera gurus on this site recommended the canon 40D and the 5D, and that I also had heard about the new Nikon D300, and that they all said I should compare physically the bodies and actually do a 'hands-on' test..

He brought out all three and went over the features/benefits of all. I held all three. Of them, the D300 felt more comfy and closely resembled the feel of my Minolta A-1. I now (thanks to all who educated me) know that I would only fully appreciate the full-frame body IF I was going to be making very large prints/posters etc., but if the max size was going to be 8X10, a crop sensor wasn't going to hinder the image vs. a full-frame..

Quite frankly, the vast majority of prints I use will be 4X6 or 5X7, tops..

I got to try them all out in-store.. Spent the better part of two hours fooling around with them all. Sorry, Canon, but the D300 wins out... This body should last me the rest of my camera-shooting lifetime and the appropriate lens will do whatever I need and more.. For now, I'll invest in the 17X55 F2.8 ED from Nikon and obtain the 70X200 F2.8 VR at a later date..

I know the 40D is cheaper, but budget's not the main concern.

BTW, the 5D in that store was $2,459.00.. The D300 was $1699 on sale this weekend.. But I'm still going to buy from Doug at Cameraland...

Wise, very wise.

Any of the top shelf models from Nikon or Cannon, will take outstanding images. Were I starting with a clean slate, I'd choose whatever body was most intuitive for me to operate, and one whose ergonomics were most compatible with me. The top quality gear is all so close, performance wise, that it all boils down to the same determining factor as most every other endeavor.....the user! Just as a center hit with a .250-3000 is better than a gut shot, with a .458 Win Mag; a well composed, properly exposed/focused image taken with a cheap point and shoot, is better than an image made with the finest equipment in the world, using sloppy technique. Don't sweat the whole brand thing. Buy what you like, and then, most importantly, learn how to use it, and go out and have some fun!

My two pennies.

Jeff

Well, I went into the local shop--local for me was the 3.5hr trip into Anchorage--and ended up doing the same. I admit, I really liked the 70-200L lens of Canon, but did not like the slide function of the 100/400L. I really enjoyed playing around with the 80-400 VR of Nikon. As for the bodies, I just couldn't get comfy with the controls of the 40d or 5d. I ended up with the D300, kept my 18-135, and bc I purchased the body, got $150 off the 70-300VR, but am lusting for the 80-400. The D300 was $1749, but the way they did the exchange, I got my D80 and the 18-135 lens as a combo discount and when they just returned just the D80 body, it ended up giving me an extra $100 towards the D300. So all in all, very happy, saved a nice chunk of change, and am neck deep in learning the new functions etc.

Will

You guys and your Nikons.....

Good luck

VTi, I'll hopefully have some elk pics for you today through the Sigma 300/2.8 with the 1.4 TC.

I know it'll be hard to stomach the Sony images but I'll put 'em as soon as I get 'em RAW converted.

Awesome! Yea, lets have a look.

WillAK,

Congrats on the new camera! I'm in the minority here, and am a fellow Nikon user. Used there film bodies for many years, and stuck with them, when I transitioned to digital. As I posted earlier, I don't really think brand matters, anyway.

Just wanted to comment on your desire for the 80-400VR. When I went to VR glass, I weighed the pros and cons, and went with the 70-200 f/2.8 instead. When I need more reach, I pop on a 2x. The Silent Wave auto focus of the 70-200 is far superior to that of the 80-400, which uses the motor of the camera body. It's slow, and a power hog. Once you get into the telephotos, and are shooting action/critters, auto focus speed is a very nice thing to have. That's my opinion anyway. Good luck, and enjoy your new SLR!

Jeff

"I now (thanks to all who educated me) know that I would only fully appreciate the full-frame body IF I was going to be making very large prints/posters etc., but if the max size was going to be 8X10, a crop sensor wasn't going to hinder the image vs. a full-frame."

Say what? FF benefits have little to do with print size. FF is exactly that. A full field of view. So if you use a 17-40 lens the camera is actually seeing 17-40. On the D300 which is a 1.5 crop if you use the same 17-40 lens the result is 25-60.
No matter which brand you buy if you think that you are going to buy any body at this juncture that will last you your camera shooting life time I think you are going to be sorely dissapointed in the future. No matter what you buy understand that you need to invest in glass. Bodies will come and go.
BTW The 5D with code PS1107QZIZF is just a hair over $2,000 at B&H. You might also want to see how many used D300's they have for sale Vs 5D's.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/397024/Understanding-Crop-Factors-and-Nikon-DX-Lenses

Which is exactly my thoughts, and again the D300 had controls that weren't far off my Minolta, so the transfer should be fairly easy, even for an old geezer like me... Those are good, new and shiny pennies...

Hey, I'm lucky if I last another ten years.. You youngsters will need more investments in camera bodies. No kidding.. That's been the rule of thumb since I bought my first SLR in 1967.
That's 'cause you have more cameral dealers around.. Severely limited in these parts.. There's like, two stores; three tops... They figger they have you by the short hairs.. Well, since the 5D's been around since 2005 or so, and the D300 is new, I can't believe anyone would have any of those used, now would they??

I didn't explain properly what I meant by my words 'hinder image'.. I meant to explain that image quality would not be noticably different between FF and the D300 (or 40D, for that matter).. Quality was the operative word there....

Thanks for the link to that article on image sizes and explanation of 'cropping'.. A good read.

But for the record, most FF sensors do produce a better quality image than a crop sensor. Larger photosites = better control of over/under exposure and dynamic range (all other things being equal). This is why the 5D is widly regarded as producing the best image quality attainable with a dSLR. The new 1Ds3 and D3 (even though they are in to totally different leagues) are probably going to end up taking that title now.

I would expect to see a lot more used 5D's than D300's. A body that has been out longer should see significantly more used available, not less. To me it says a lot when THE biggest dealer in the US doesn't have one used 5D body available. Not a very promising sign to see a lot of used D300's for sale when they have only been on the street a few months. I have no idea why you wouldn't think they would carry used 5D's. The 5D is still a current production body. FYI The 5D wasn't even announced until fall of 2005 much less put in production and on store shelves. With reference to Camera dealers I think I missed your point. Who cares about local shops when you have every major camera shop available right at home on your PC?

+1
Many independent pros use the the lower end of both Canon and Nikon.

Yup, you missed the point.. No matter... Used your reference to B&H and perused the reviews of both the D5 and the D300.. Only 2-3 minor beefs with the Nikon while the D5 had many more; although not with image quality, it was more with other items..

Sorry.. I know you're a die-hard Canon fan.. But after handling both and operating both, the D300 just seems to fit my needs/wishes more than the Canon.. I did not scrimp on glass; the 17X55 ED II Nikkor lens has been touted by everyone I've talked to as being excellent. Can't do the D3 which would be GREAT... Too much bux..

Now I just have to learn the proper techniques and experiment like there's no tomorrow.. Cameraland's sending me a rather large box posthaste..

No doubt you'll love your D300 Redneck, you just could have done better by investing in the Canon system that's all. I'm glad you went for the Nikon though, since you had your mind made up already a long time ago, even against the *experienced* advice from Stetson, myself and some others here on the board.

You can read and compare all the specs and reviews you want, and it'll go back and forth forever - Canon's better, Nikon's better... - depending on whose review your reading. Like I always say, the proof is in the image pudding. Let your images do the talking for you. You've seen mine, let's see yours

Rob

With regards to brand loyalty I think it was said best on the Luminous Landscape;

"I have no loyalty to either brand.(Canon Vs Nikon) All I care about is features, functionality and performance"

I think you could have made a wiser choice but that has nothing at all to do with brand in this case. Clearly you were sold on Nikon before you started shopping. I'll look forward to seeing some of those 14 bit RAW conversions.
Happy shooting!

WELL---did a 180 degree turn. Got home, long drive back to Kenai from Anchorage and found a had a dud of a D300 body, it wasn't recognizing the lenses and they had a little play when locked in, the display would read F0, then when you turned a bit more, even while already locked in, it would register the correct F-stop and the AF would work. Completely miffed, so another long 3hr drive through the mountains back again, and now have a Canon 40D, 38-135 kit and 70-200/2.8 lens. Very happy, battery on charge and praying no issues. I was so on the fence between the two that when the Nikon had issues, figured it a sign and went with Canon. Made for a long weekend with two road trips squeezed in however. Will report after a bit of use. You Canon folk better been telling the gospel, I simply do not have time for another Anchortown trip. LOL.

Oh, swap out and had the camera store check out the body, they hadn't experienced it before, said it would be going back to Nikon. Good service with me though.

Thanks all.

Will

Bummer.. Yeah, things like that can happen to all brands. On the Fredmiranda site there were two guys who bought Canons and they had issues also.. One guy figured he was just unlucky and bought another Canon.. He had more problems, got rid of it and said he wouldn't buy another.

But everyone has to understand that any manufacturer of something as complex as this (and cars/trucks too) can turn out a lemon.. It happens.. That extra 3 hour drive though had to be frustrating for you. I wouldn't be happy either. Now I just hope that Canon gives you good service.

Stetson, I'm not going to be doing any RAW conversions.. I'm just not that into all the minutae of serious photography, not yet anyway.....

VTi, you will no doubt provide better pix than I will simply because you know what you're doing. I have tons to learn yet before I can get a shot worth really looking at. But at least the machinery has the potential and I cannot blame the camera anymore...

Anything touched by the hands of man can have trouble. It's how those troubles are managed after the fact that shows the integrity of the business.

I don't look at a problem with anything now days as a sign that everything they make is bad, unless the response to the problem was unacceptable.

It's certainly heartbreaking for this to happen. It also seems the greater the investment, the more grief is felt.

Will -- You ended up with the correct gear my friend, and I'll personally help you get into the game, and shorten that learning curve if you need. Just speak up if you need help getting started with anything.

That's too bad you had to make an extra trip though, but at least you got that extra sign to help you out Two of my photographer friends bought the new Nikons the day they became available (one a D300, the other a FF D3) and they both did the same thing, except after a couple months of use. Just totally dead. And that's where the [bleep] part about Nikon comes in... both SLR's are still at Nikon and no word when they will be returning. This has caused one of them to buy a Canon 1DmkIII like mine and he's thrilled, the other is just too stubborn to accept change and is using his old D2x until he happens to see his gear come back.

I've owned 7 Canon dSLR's and have had to send in only 1 for a repair. I called them, they emailed me a prepaid UPS Overnight shipping label, fixed the camera in 3 days and overnighted it back to me. I was out for 5 days including shipping... that's one reason people like Canon. Nikon makes a good product occasionally, but you're "going it alone", better hope nothing goes wrong

Feel free to PM me or post here and we'll get that gear up and running in no time Congrats on buying a very nice piece of kit.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck Will. Just one reason many of us have learned to kick back for a while after a new release.
In the end I think you made a very wise choice. I'll second what VTi said although I honestly believe that you cut your learning curve significantly by buying the right gear.
Luckilly in your case you chose to deal with a local shop so you were at least able to get things back on track ASAP.
Look forward to seeing some photos!

Will,

Bummer on the D300, but glad the retailer treated you right! I would have been PO'd after back to back drives to town as well. Hope the Cannon works out for you; I'm betting you'll wind up loving the digital format! The only film body I really miss, is my FM-2. That was the most bulletproof camera, I have ever owned. Should have kept it, just because.

Jeff

That is so true, that one broke one doesn't mean Nikon is bad...their service would dictate to me what they are like. That's why Kimber in is at the bottom for rifle manufactures...one I would like to see go out of business because their service is an embarrasment.

For eight grand, he better be thrilled...

That's a heckuva camera, no doubt..

Re: the Nikon, I'm fairly certain if I have any issues Doug will take care of me.. He has too good a rep on this board not to..

If it takes a dump, I'll be the very first to say I was wrong and I'll make the switch..

After 7 (WOW) Canons, they BETTER send you an overnite ship label.. If I sold a customer 7 rifles, I'd be doing the same thing. You can bet your sweet bippy on that!..

Canon does take good care of me.

The "fan boy" thing gets me a bit irritated as well. Honestly, I'm as least loyal of a consumer as can possibly be. I'm all about top performance, even obsessed to a certain extent. Just as an example, my previous 3 pickups were Dodge, then Ford, now a GMC. I shoot both Hoyt and Mathews bows, use Kifaru and Eberlestock packs, Dozier, Ingram and Scott Cook hunting knives. My tactical optics are US Optics, Schmidt & Bender. Remington and Win rifles etc, etc, etc.... Nobody out there is less of a "fanboy" than I.

I can say this, if Nikon (or anyone) produced a product line even literally a *shread* better than Canon, I'd be all over it. I'd sell my $28,000 Canon kit today and put together a Nikon kit tomorrow, seriously. That's just me, no compromises. And for a total beginner, it should've be a no brainer. Experience will teach you.

At this juncture don't you think you could tone down your fan boyism just a bit and at least make some minimal effort to post accuratly? A 1DmkIII is a hair over 4k not 8. Your so busy knocking Canon and accusing others of being fan boys it's comical. You don't even have a grip on FF Vs crop let alone RAW conversion, pixel density or Dynamic range. Dare I even mention........Noise and AF speed?
Honestly I've never known any one who has bought an $1800+ P&S before. It's been entertaining.
Congrats!


http://www.canogacamera.com/detail.aspx?ID=41223

Slow down, Dave... slow down... It's possible I looked at the wrong body, but I'm pretty sure it was the one you mentioned.. I was on the Canon website and they show the price of that body at $7,999.00...

I've never knocked Canon as you state. I've tried to be honest in my appraisal as to what I'm looking for and what's out there.. I know Canon makes a great product; they have for years. I just cannot see the advantage of obtaining a Canon over the D300 for the purposes I'm going to use it for, that's all.

As to knocking cameras, Dave, it seems YOU have had a real issue with anyone considering anything other than Canon. From the outset you've basically stated anything else is a pos... Ok, that's your opinion, but it isn't mine...

Since you're a self-appointed professional, I'm sure you have tons more experience than I have.. I've stated from the outset that I'm really not experienced in this and have been trying to learn. It's too bad that you haven't really read my posts or you would have possibly absorbed that little tidbit.. I'm not going to use this camera for anything even close to any professional level..

I also didn't accuse anyone here of brand loyalty to the exclusion of anything else.. VTi at least has been fairly neutral on the subject and it's much appreciated.. YOU, on the other hand, have nothing but obvious disdain for anything other than Canon.

Do you have a 1DmkIII on a pedestal that you bow to every morning????


Geez, man....

Sorry if I got a bit hot here, but your last post has me thoroughly PO'd...


Ok, for the record: EOS 1DmkIII is (ala Canon website) $4,495. The 1DsmkIII is the one that's $7,999.00..

MY MISTAKE... HAPPY NOW???

Did not mean to imply to you, or really anyone here that they're biased to the extent that nothing else will be considered, exception being to Stetson, who has posted indications otherwise.. What I was trying to say is that I understand there CAN (emphasis) be some brand loyalty there that tends to push one toward a product ahead of others.. And I'm the same way and I admit it.. I won't drive a truck other than a Ford, and my favorite rifle's a Win. M70.. That said, I never, ever, tell someone that whatever they choose other than those two items is a pos.. I build rifles on several actions, Rem, Win, Mausers and the like.. They're all rifles to me.. I just know the M70's better...

I sincerely did not mean to imply you're guilty of overt bias.. You're pm's to me have always been courteous, informative and neutral as much as possible..

I fully appreciate that, more than you may know..

But please keep in mind that you guys are pretty much professional photogs, while I'm a novice and clearly stated so right up front.. No sense trying to explain trigonometry to a 10 year old... Gotta add, subtract, multiply and divide first.. That's where I'm at..

To Stetson, this D300 is a P&S.. His opinion, stated in the manner above, is not the way to win fans...

Obviously, this is not the forum to learn anything about photography... Too bad, really.. I was hoping for better.

How about if you start by backing up that accusation that you just deleted out of your post slick!
I think I've actually tried rather dilligently to help you out here and in private. More than once you have flat out made rather thinly veiled suggestions a few of us are nothing more than Canon Fan boys which is just plain offensive when some one is trying to help you out. You have posted seriously jacked Canon prices more than once. Your the only one here stuck on brand loyalty and you've mentioned it several times. I started with Nikon. That's where my comfort zone was. If Nikon come out with better gear I'll just be one of many going back to Nikon. Hasn't happened yet but who knows what the future will hold.

I deleted nothing.. Just added that I was wrong on my price for the body.. And admitted I was wrong..

Apparently you can't even figure THAT out..


Have a great day, Slick..

You were right about one thing: you were quite neutral in your replies to pms..

This is from one of them: "If you are interested in Nikon you may want to check out the Nikonians web site.The D300 is indeed a sweet machine. If you get it I Hope to hear if you like it. "

So, why now do you call it a P&S camera and that it's a crappy item compared to a similar Canon..


Sorry Stetson, I just don't get the serious change in tone..

If I offended someone by making any comment about brand loyalty, I sincerely apologize, and I won't make that mistake again. I had no idea everyone here was so touchy on that subject..

Heck, if someone says I'm biased toward a M70, I'm all smiles..

I'll just stay off this forum.. Sorry to cause everyone such grief...

I'm gone...

I never suggested the D300 was a P&S. Far from it. However, you have sent me multiple PM's that were little more than laundry lists of why the D300 is better than any thing Canon makes. That's just not the case. The point that you have missed through out this thread and in private is that the D300 does take a technical edge over the 40D. However, **IF** you personally are unable to fully understand and utilize the format, 14bit RAW etc. and understand the features it provides you personally will not see any gain from the D300. All indications from you are that YOU will be using it as a P&S. I think it's already been said that for a newb the choice should have been easy.
As far as winning fans I very much doubt any one appreciates trying to help some one out only to be accused of being a fan boy.

I'd greatly appreciate you backing this up. And just for the record it was my error above when I indicated I thought you had edited your post. Honestly you have me seeing side ways. I have to wonder if you can appreciate how condescending and sarcastic some of your responses have been over the last few days to people who have seriously tried to help you out.
In either event I'd greatly appreciate you showing me just where I indicated Nikon is a pos. A few quotes of mine from this thread regarding brand loyalty;


"Many independent pros use the the lower end of both Canon and Nikon."


"I have no loyalty to either brand.(Canon Vs Nikon) All I care about is features, functionality and performance"


"I think you could have made a wiser choice but that has nothing at all to do with brand in this case"


"If you are interested in Nikon you may want to check out the Nikonians web site.The D300 is indeed a sweet machine. If you get it I Hope to hear if you like it. "

So Will( You all remember Will, he's the guy who started this thread, asking for some advice), how do you like your new camera gear?

Jeff

Redneck. I would like to help clarify one thing. Stetson really was not suggesting the D300 is a P&S, not in the least. He was only saying that through your postings, it looks very much like you will be *using* it as a P&S. I gathered the same to be honest.

No need to stay off this thread, sometimes things get heated when people are passionate about the subject at hand. Hard discussions are part of what these forums are all about. Sure we could just blow sunshine up your ass about making an unwise purchase, but why would you want that? Wouldn't you rather hear peoples' honest opinions? I rather enjoy a good debate.

Let's talk about why you believe the Nikon is superior, I'm very curious to know and maybe you can set me straight, I'm all ears I do have a 40D that gets carried as a back up for me but I have used it on occasion. I guarantee you this: there's nothing you can do with a D300 that I can not do with my 40D even better. That's the whole point here that I/we were trying to convey. Now, my 40D compared to my 1DmkIII, that's not the case. There are a few (or several) critical features that allow me to produce better images, period. So the additional cost IS justified to me.

Another thing. Have you actually purchased the D300 yet?, or just decided to buy it? If you did mention which, I can't recall.

Fanboyism now aside, let's discuss these SLR's. There's some good insight to be learned here.

I want to know about the 5D.

I keep hearing it's a great buy right now, but am wondering if I'm going to regret buying it when the "new" version comes out, whenever that is.

I'm thinking maybe I should just bite the bullet now and jump up to FF, rather than buy another crop.

I think dissapointment with the new release will be very dependent on your wants/needs/price range. Are you more driven by value or having the latest greatest?
I think there is a common misconception that going FF is a step up. No doubt a larger sensor yields better IQ in general but is this the best for what you shoot? I like wildlife photography so a cropper will always be in order. At the same time I'm a bit torn because I also enjoy landscapes so FF would be very nice.
If you put any stock at all in the rumor mill the next release may have been put off for a bit to introduce video capability into the body. I would expect to see the new version by the end of the year however there was no 5DMkII at PMA so who knows for sure. The savvy shopper has been able to pick up a 5D recently for around $1800. Currently 2k at B&H. Recently there was a rebate special with the 5D, Kit lens and printer for under $2500. I expect the next FF version is going to be closer to 3k. Here's a link to a rumor page that may be of interest. Just take it with a big grain of salt.


http://www.photographybay.com/2007/09/18/canon-5d-mark-ii-coming-november-2007/

Actually he stated exactly that a few posts above. But, whatever... Quite frankly, it's what I will be using it for initially until I can learn more and experiment more.. As I've indicated several times, I'm a newbie to all this technical digital stuff.. If I actually buy a P&S camera, it's hard to progress from there, is it not?

I just thought that maybe it would be best if I just left. In no way did I want to start any war or hard feelings. I hear ya..

As I (again) stated above, I thought the comparisons boiled down to two mainly basic things re: the body. The fit/feel in my hand is very similar to the Konica Minolta I have now. That, IMHO, should enable me to learn this system more quickly and concentrate more on learning technique vs. functions.. The two Canons I handled did not feel comfy. They felt clumsy to me. The system and controls seemed more foreign (if that's possible) to me than the Nikon. As has been indicated by someone way above (and I agree) it's not really the body but the lens that gets the image. The Canons, according to their website, offer only a very limited series of 'L' lenses that are supposed to be the best. Nikon seems (and I can be wrong, obviously) to have a somewhat better range of their high-end lenses available. The last place to scrimp, as I'm hoping you'll agree, is the lens.. And that may very well be.. However, as a newbie, I cannot grasp the difference well enough to go to Canon. Yes, and as a (I'm assuming here) a pro I can understand your choice.. Maybe I can give you a similar story. Let's suppose a newbie RVer is buying his first 5th wheel camper. Gross wt. on the camper is 13,000 with a pin weight of 2,250#.. He's considering a proper tow truck and his choices are an F-350 SRW SWB PSD or an F-350 LWB DRW PSD.. Either will do the job. Both have identical powerplants. Both can carry the load. Which will be a better choice? The DRW wins out for several reasons. Four rear tires = better load distribution and will not have to be adjusted, pressurewise, for the additional load. The LWB means no sliding compensating hitch will be needed to prevent cab damage when making sharp turns. Last, the DRW provides superior stability over the SRW.. Only real difference here is price; the DRW will cost a bit more, but IMHO it's more than worth it.. But then I'm fairly experienced, truckwise...

The box arrived about an hour ago from Cameraland..

I would love to..

To clear the air fully, I never (except for my retort to Stetson), ever intended any of my comments to come across as sarcasm.. I tend to post in briefer text that I guess could possibly be taken the wrong way.. I'll try to do better. I've been a member of the campfire since '98 and do my best to help others when there's a discussion on firearms, reloading or general hunting/shooting questions..

Gotta love it when the "box" arrives...I am waiting on mine, should be here today or tomorrow

Looking forward to seeing some pics Redneck...I am sure you will be happy with the Nikon.

I'm an idiot when it comes to cameras, and enjoy reading threads like this...where some of you guys offer a bit of a lesson.

On a side note, I prefer vid capability remain housed in vid cameras...seems like no one gets it right on still cameras...

I've enjoyed the Canon vs Nikon debate ever since we bought our D70, at which time we were asking the same questions....

To take off on your truck analagy I think a good comparison here might be suggesting to someone who drives in the city daily and primarily uses their truck to carry groceries buy a 3500 dually because they might tow something someday. They could buy an F-150 for 30k or the dually diesel for 55K. Which is better? Or which is better for THAT driver?
I do agree that it is important to buy a body that is comfortable and has a user friendly interface. You have indicated several times that you like the technical edge of the D300 so that gives the impression that was a primary factor in your choice. In a P&S style shooting you won't be utilizing any of that ability any more than the person using the 3500HD for shopping. I'm sure you will be thinking.....Yes but I can grow into it. The caveat there is *will* YOU learn to use it and utilize it before that technology becomes dated. The tecno twist can really get you you wound up and spending a lot of cash that is not necessary. While you may in fact out grow a P&S I think it unlikly you would out grow any of the bodies listed by the OP. Canon still has the best range of high end glass. Most noteably primes. However Nikon is really stepping up their game. Competition for the consumer is a beatifull thing. In the next few years we will see even better bodies and lower prices but I personally hope they stop the MP wars. The last thing I need is larger files draining my HD.

I'll try to be as clear as I can be here. This statement is utterly false. The truth is EXACTLY the opposite. At this point it makes no difference to you since you're tied to a system, but I want to be clear in case others are in the same position you were previously in and are reading this thread for information. It is VERY well known in the photography world, that Canon is VERY superior in the glass dept. Now, I'm speaking as a whole line up here. On a particular basis, Nikon has some nice pieces of glass, that are extremely spendy and very hard to find available. The remaining lenses in their line are not that impressive at all.

This is why when Nikon comes out with a nice SLR body, Canon still keeps it's consumer base BECAUSE of the excellent glass line up, and continues to sell many, many times more slr's. THis fact is certainly not because nobody has "discovered" Nikon yet

You are correct in your assumption that glass is what a system is all about, SLR bodies come and go. In that regard, Canon is HANDS DOWN superior. This is why at major sporting events, such as the NFL, NBA or the Olympics, 8 or 9 out of 10 (can't remember the exact stat, but it's one of those 2) photographers are shooting Canon. Trust me, Sports Illustrated is not shooting Canon to save a few bucks. Now, that's not to say a few photographers scattered in there don't prefer Nikon, of course theres some. But as a general rule, pro sports photography is dominated by Canon, and this fact is important when comparing systems (even though it may seem uninteresting to you) because they are no compromise photographers, and what they choose carries a lot of weight.

Just as a side note: I've been wanting a 200-400 VR/IS lens for a long time, just like Nikon's version. I wish Canon would produce this lens, and so do many other photographers. Well, when the D300 came out I bought one, and the 200-400VR to basically use as an isolated system. This is where I learned a lot about the new Nikon system. It was a total DOG compared to my 1DmkIII + 300/2.8IS combo, which is roughly the same money give or take a bit (both are expensive combo's). The focus is nowhere near as fast, the image quality is nowhere as good. I wish it was. I'd love to have that combo slung over my shoulder while shooting the big glass, for times when the subjects move in closer. I'll continue to use my 300/2.8 as the compromise with the Nikon system was just too great for me. Some decent images can be had, no question, but not even near the same league as the 300/2.8IS combo. Take that for what it's worth, but is't being as truthful as I can be.

"To clear the air fully, I never (except for my retort to Stetson), ever intended any of my comments to come across as sarcasm."

REALLY? So when you said "Actually he stated exactly that a few posts above. But, whatever... " in the very same post you seriuosly didn't think that was sarcastic.

Understood..

Redneck:

Ok, so since that D300 really isn't going to do you much good without some glass , what lenses were delivered along with the dSLR? I know you didn't spend $1800.00 on a dSLR and not get some great glass to go with her.

What did you end up deciding on?

I just want to know how Will is making out with the 40D!

Warning, slight detour ahead......

I've been following this thread and others, and learning a LOT. I've got near-zero knowledge of the DSLR world, but am itching to upgrade from my 6mp Canon Powershot. Prior to going digital I used a Canon EOS A2 for about ten years and loved system and the substantial size and weight. I only had two Sigma lenses for it, a 70-300 and a 28-105 Aspherical.

My Canon's AF died, and the body is worth pennies on the dollar now, so with some sadness I'm moving on. I'm amazed with the image detail of DSLRs, and I also know that high quality lenses play a huge part in the quality of the image. My question is, are my Sigma lenses compatible with the Canon DSLRs, and if so, am I kidding myself with their quality for that application? I can walk away from them too and start from scratch if need be.

I'd like to stay with the same body and lenses I start with, rather than play the upgrade game. Currently I'm leaning towards a 5D body, and a pair or trio of L lenses as I can afford them. I'll admit to being a little scared at the prices vs. the rapidly advancing technology and changing market. I knew my film SLR setup wasn't top of the line, but I'd never have guessed that it would be extinct in only ten years.

Is the used market a wise place to shop for lenses, or do the high-end lenses get so much use that by the time they're for sale the AF or IS systems are mostly used up? Same situation with the pro and semi-pro used bodies? It doesn't seem like good photo gear depreciates as rapidly as snowmachines, and so maybe I'd be ahead to buy new. I'm very easy on my gear, but maybe most photographers are too.

Thanks in advance.

222Rem -- First of all welcome to the world of dSLR, you won't be disappointed with the quality of digital files today. Outstanding results can be had, with very modest gear in most cases.

It seems like you're leaning towards Canon at the moment, and that's definitely the correct choice in your situation, starting from the ground up.

The 5D is a great camera, and it would be a very long time before you felt it was dated. Sure new bodies will come out, but unless you're the type of fellow that must be on the very cutting edge of technology, your 5D will not NEED to be replaced with a newer version for many years. Canon customer service is second to none, which is important in your situation since over the course of MANY years with a dSLR, a small repair may be needed here and there. You'll be out of commission for a very short period of time, as Canon's turnaround time is very fast in this regard.

What are some of the type of images you're looking to achieve?, and we'll can help direct you toward some lenses. You'll be much happier with Canon glass, as this is the reason most people go with Canon to start with. No doubt Sigma and others make some very good lenses, and you may want to look at a couple, but in general Canon glass is the best there is and the 5D really deserves it and can make it shine.

Sorry forgot to address the used gear issue. I'd personally look for a new 5D at this point. That is a piece of gear that is coming down in price with the anticipation of the new version.

Used Canon lenses are a fine purchase to make, as they are very durable and really takes a lot for the AF or IS mechanism to go bad. However, the only problem is that they hold their value so well, you usually see most Canon professional lenses sell for within 10% or their original cost. In that regard, I usually just feel it's worth it to buy them brand new. That's just my opinion, and there are some good deals out there, but for the most part you won't save a ton of cash.

Well, I am enjoying the debate of Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge etc. here. Seems I asked a hottly contested question.

I am pleased to say my 40D is functioning properly, but with my work load so far this week, I have not had a chance to mess with it much--moving into a new house while all of this was going on.

So will have more to report after the weekend.

Thanks all.

Will

Great Will, look forward to hearing back from you. If something is unclear regarding the function of your new baby, please speak up.

I'll second what VTi said about used. If you are patient and wait for Canon rebates that happen twice a year you can often get new glass less than used if you are able to combine the rebate with a B&H code. This depends on which L glass you have your eye on. Some glass is never ever going to be on rebate.
I don't know about your Sigma lenses and compatability. I very much doubt they would work on a crop camera due to the mirror. They *may* work on the 5D but if you can sell them and buy a few pieces of L glass I'd sure be inclined to head in that direction.

Did I miss it or or is my memory getting that bad?
What did you order?

Thanks VTi and Stetson. Yes, I'm only considering Canon products. I'll go ahead and buy new as I can afford the pieces, and watch for rebates and sales. I remember you mentioning a new Canon being released soon, so hopefully that drops the price of the 5D a little. I'm not in a huge hurry, so I think time is on my side in this game.

My photography interests are all over the map. I love photographing scenery throughout the seasons, but also enjoy trying to capture decent wildlife images. Both have their challenges, but I really can't see any down-sides to the digital approach that allows me to bracket, then cull and sort once I get home. While I'm amazed at the portability of my little shirt pocket Canon, I'd like to make room in my pack for a bigger camera that does justice to some of the subject matter I find. I'm not much into photographing people, and can continue to use my Powershot for holidays and informal events. Once I have children my feelings may change on the subject however.

VTi, the images you've shared here are an inspiration, and are a benchmark for me to aim for. I realize that you're using the very best equipment, a solid tripod, and a vast foundation of knowledge and experience, but why should that deter a little guy like me, right?

I ordered the Canon 40D, grip and the Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM lens to start with and then the next one with be the Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM lens in a couple months when I get my tax return...and if I can sqeeze it I would like the Canon 100mm macro (that might be a stretch for now)

That should get me going...I just finished purchasing a new tripod because my old one was real cheap/unsteady. For that I went with the Manfrotto 055XPROB, Manfrotto 468 hydrostatic head, Kirk Acra-style plate and Real Right Stuff L Plate.

I am guessing it will be 6 mths or so before the next rebate is out on Canon stuff?

I got the AF-S DX 17X55 F/2.8G IF ED.. Nearly $1250 smackeroos.. When I can afford it (hah) I want to get that new 70X200 F/2.8.. But that's another $1650..

One thing I just thought of.. My BIL finally had his Canon SLR film camera go blooey about a year ago.. His fault, he dropped it.. He's going to make the plunge to digital very soon. Since he's already familiar with Canon he definately should stay with them..

I'll talk to him soon and mention the 30 or 40 series and see what he says..

No, but then everything I've said you've taken as sarcastic.. IT'S NOT INTENDED THAT WAY..

Now drop it... I have.

It sure dosn't look like you've dropped it! That statements a little overly dramatic don't ya think? I notice that you left out half the post in your quote. Maybe it's just minutia but when a grown man makes a statement that ends in "but, whatever" I do think that's rather condescending and sarcastic. I take it you were unable to find a single statement I made to support your accusation that I allegedly said Nikon was a "POS".

Sounds like a nice set up. Congrats! Why the 70-200 2.8 Vs the F4 IS? I've had both and I greatly prefer the F4 IS. However if your a bokeh lover or into portraits the 2.8 is the better choice. The IS on the F4 is one generation newer, it's a fraction of the weight and about 70% less expensive. The 70-200 F4 IS is easilly one of my favorites.

That one I am still undecided on, I may go with the F4...my thoughts were that the F2.8 would give me more for later at dusk and early dawn shots.

No question the 2.8 performs better in low light. It just comes at a fair price both financially and in weight. The next generation IS helps bridge the normal disparity between the f4 and f2.8 IS. I see the 2.8 IS as a portrait lens. Consider the 100-400L. It will give you the reach you want for wildlife if that's what you are talking about at dusk and dawn. If you want a fast lens for the price difference between the two 70-200's you could get a prime. Both 70-200's take the 1.4x TC well so you can squeeze 280mm out of them but you loose one f stop.

Good point Stetson, I was just doing some reading on the F4 and that is a better choice...you just saved me some money!!! I maybe able to squeeze in that 100 macro too

Here is a photo I took last deer season (10-13) testing out that lens. There's nothing special about the photo. I was just testing in low light. I had to edit my initial post because I'm not sure how much day light was left but I think it was getting pretty close to dark. I can't seem to find the shots I actually took late in November but the lens worked well for me in this application.
This was taken with the XTi and 70-200 F4 IS. ISO 1600 f7.1
1/160

That does seem like the correct choice in your case. The 70-200/2.8 is for the most part a photojournalist and wedding/event type lens, not necessarily a nature/wildlife lens. Sure it would work great, but at dusk and dawn and at that range of focal lengths the extra stop is probably not that valuable since it's able to be handheld to ridiculously slow shutter speeds.

Go that way, you'll be better off.

Speaking of the 100-400.

Man I need bigger glass..:GRIN:

I hope it's warmer there then it is here Randy. Freakin cold. LOL

Its cold here it's 23f.

23? That's warm! It's 7 here this morning. Amazing jow much vibration you can get at 400-560mm just from shivering while holding a release. LOL

Holy smokes thats to cold! lol The wind was bad here made it a little tuff. Your pics are awesome! :GRIN: what did you have your ISO set on?

Thanks! The first was 400 & the second was 800.

I knew I should have just stayed out of this forum.. I also remember several other times you've been in dustups when someone doesn't agree with you 100%... I wasn't absolutely certain about the definition of 'irasible', so I looked it up. Not sure why the word came to me and frankly I hadn't thought about it for years.. But it fits you to a tee... Now, is that sarcasm? YUP.. Tried to make it plain this time...

If I said the sky was blue, you'd say "it is NOT!.. It's AZURE!"

So, Stets old boy, I'm asking for a small favor; one I'm thinking you'll easily agree to.

Place me on 'ignore'. I'm doing the same to you, only the second person I've ever done that to in 10 years.. That way, this whole hilarious episode comes to an end.

To: VTi, I truly thank you for being much more the gentleman.. I'll try mightily to do the same in return.. But in the end, I think it's best if I just read here and say bupkis.. It's obvious that Stetson plainly does not want me here.. Fine. It's his turf, not mine..

"It's obvious that Stetson plainly does not want me here.. Fine. It's his turf, not mine.. "


I thought you were over this? You said you dropped it seventeen hours ago!
In regards to the quote I pulled out of your post nothing could be further from the truth. I do think you've had ample time to back up your earlier accusations. Still not one single quote? Clearly you miss-understood what I said about a P&S . Why not just move on with the conversation in a civil manner?
Sorry the links, web site referrals and other information that you were provided with both here and in private were of no use to you. I did my best to help you out. May I remind you sir that you contacted me and asked for help?
If putting me on ignore will quash the drama by all means feel free but IMO you could have easilly sent me that little nasty via PM instead of continuing your conniption here. I don't suppose it's occured to you that you are not the OP in this thread?
Just a friendly suggestion but you might want to look up 'irasible' again.
I hope your not going to use this as an excuse to not put up some photos from your new gear. I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to see your photos.
Enjoy!

With the 40D and 17-55 this past weekend inside the field museum.