Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Model 70 .458 Lott

Saw in the new Rifleman that Winchester has been quietly offering the .458 Lott in the Mod 70 from the Custom Shop for the last few years (at about double the price of a .375 or .458 Win.) Now that Hornady is loading it, wonder if they'll offer it in the regular safari grade? Anybody heard anything?

Steve,

I talked to the Winchester marketeers at their booth at the last SCI Convention, and they told me it was not in the plan. They don't even have a reamer on the production line, is how it was put.

The price difference is more like 3 to 1.

jim dodd

I honestly don't see the need for a 458 Lott unless you work in Africa as a PH or with other big dangerous game as in Alaska or Russia. It's a whole lot of gun with a very limited or narrow practical use. The recoil on a well made gun which fits good is manageable but still quite a stiff jolt to the body. It's a Heavy gun and really not a practical "Hunting" rifle in my opinion.

I am a PH in Africa and was also in Alaska Seasonally for about 20 years. I never used the Lott I have in Alaska and likely never will. The 375HH is plenty for that duty. The 375HH was my choice in Africa for my work until 4 years ago when I had the Lott made up on the Model 70 CRF action. The 375HH was good enough for most situations but the lott with the short barrel and fixed Peep sights was a better insurance policy for a PH. The key here is you don't need a backup rifle to hunt with. In Alaska or Africa you will have a guide or PH that packs the big bore for rare problem that might occur.

When I hunt for myself I will use the 375HH. I suppose there are a few odd situations where I might use the 458 only because I have it already. I would certainly not buy one for any big game or dangerous game hunt if I already had a 375HH. There may be a bit of "romance" in owning a big bore African rifle. However I would rather have the "romance" of an additional 4-5 animals on my safari with the money instead of the spending that money on a very limited use specialty rifle.

It's always interesting to me to see the people who hunt as recreational sportsman wanting the big bore PH rifles to hunt with. I can't even count how many times I have had clients with bigger rifles then any of the PH's in camp were packing. Why these once or twice a lifetime African hunter/ sportsman must have a giant dragon slaying big bore is beyond me. Few shoot them well and most have put so much money into the gun for a few animals or maybe even a single buffalo.

Nothing beats a scope sighted 375HH with a 300 grain bonded core bullet on big dangerous game for a visiting sportsman. One well placed shot with a 375HH will kill anything alive quick and easy. The Barnes X and the Swift Aframe will penetrate more then enough on any buffalo and Solids will brain a Rhino, elephant, or Hippo just as quick as you please. I have never had a recreational hunter with a 458 or bigger able to make a brain shot on a croc or hippo in a river. Yet I have no problem getting the same guy with a scope sighted 375HH to shoot like a champ.

Everyone makes there own choices and if somebody wants to buy a big bore for any reason at all,....... it's their money. I'm simply suggesting (with many years experience) hunting big dangerous game, you don't need to have this kind of gun to hunt in Africa or Alsaka. You also might be better off without one of these big bore cannons!

Aw, Jim, admit it, the Lott is just plain fun to shoot!!

I do not advise buying anything in large caliber from Winchester. The barrel recoil lugs are always crooked causing horrible grouping, even on the custom shop rifles. Some of them have feeding problems. And, even if the custom shop has a 458 Lott Reamer, it will not be the "International Lott Reamer" and you wil not be able to chamber some ammo. Might be exciting if you loose ammo on the way to J'Berg, borrow some PMC stuff from the PH, and your rifle has the standard American Lott Chamber.

There is nothing special about a custom shop rifle as far as the metal work is concerned. All it has is nicer wood and a nicer finish, maybe better sights. The insides are still the same as a production line rifle. They do not even use 8-40 scope base screws.

I wil post a photo of the famous Winchester Crooked Barrel Lug later, as I am installing lugs on new barrels next week and will take some comparision photos showing The Good, The Bad, maybe even The Ugly.

PS, Jim is correct about caliber: I get the chance to shoot a lot of big bore rifes. When I head off to Africa, I will be packing a 375 H&H. Maybe a 400 H&H if 'Ol Mbogo is on the menu.

Without question setting up three cinder blocks at 30 yards, or three house bricks, three gallon jugs of water, or other similiar reactive targets and laying waste with that big 500 grain bullet on those things is awsome! I regularly set up reactive targets at 30 yards and shoot them as fast as I can manipulate the action. It's almost as much fun watching as it is shooting. The bricks turn to a plume of smoke and dust. The cinder blocks explode as do the jugs of water into a cloud of mist.

Yeah they are a "Blast" to shoot and I truely love having that 458Lott. It's the nicest rifle I own because it was built from a bare action by John to my exact needs. It also gives me a level of confidence when in the bush with big dangerous game I would not otherwise have.

If I were not a PH I would never have had it built though. I must say this in all honesty regarding this rifle of mine. I can shoot 1" groups at 50 yards with the Peep sights. If I scoped this rifle I would easily shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. With a 2" high hundred yard POI it would be 2" low at 200 yards. For big game with a scope you could kill anything alive right in it's tracks with this gun.

Imagine 6000FPE with 1MOA accuracy, the question is can you handle the recoil with the practice sessions? When John and I were talking about what to build I had every option to choose the cartridge or caliber I wanted. After a while,....... thinking about the pros and cons of every possible choice I could find nothing wrong with the 458 Lott. It's the rifle to beat for a big bore. More PH's in Africa are switching to the Lott then any other cartride.

The things that made my decision were as follows:
I wanted to duplicate the 470 nitro express at a minimum. That means 500 grain bullets at 2150fps. with the Lott this is an effortless load!

I wanted 458 diameter to have access to cheap and easily available Bullets.

I wanted easily available Brass

I liked the idea of using 458 Win Mag ammo in a pinch.

I wanted this built on a Winchester Model 70 CRF rifle.

When all is said and done and the dust and metal chips settled this rifle not only met my needs it exceeded all my needs for my DG work rifle.

Image station is out of service at the moment. I'll check back and post a few photo's of this beauty for you when it's back up.

Don't forget Jim, my 15 yr old son, Sean, shot your lott this year in Africa. The recoil did not bother him at all! You can attest to the fact that he is not a big boy either, but he is rather a crack shot. He loves that rifle, and NO I am not going to get him one. He is already too deadly with his 30-06.

I'm not a PH and I realize I don't need a Lott, but thank God that's not the standard for buying rifles. I've already got a couple of .375s and a .450/.400 NE and I'm not an elephant hunter, so I've got the buffalo, bear and cat neighborhood pretty well covered. I just like the Lott, and I like the idea that I don't have to run it full throttle like a .458 Win. But I can't see paying the custon shop tab for a model 70, given the deficiencies noted above. If I were inclined to spend 4 or 5 large, I'd get a Dakota instead of a prettied up M70.

Sean is a crack shot, anyone kid or not that whacks 6 big game animals on a Safari with me and still has days left to go fishing has his head in the right place! Remember too he killed a load of Francolin with the redlabel of yours!



That Rifle of mine is a bit different then what most guys would have. My stock is designed as a double rifle or shotgun stock is. That reduces recoil by a whole bunch but may not be a very nice stock for using a scope because it's so low. I also only have peep sights which removes the threat of scope eye. Put a scope on a Lott 3" from your head and life can change in a hurry! As a matter of fact I doubt I would allow folks in general to shoot it with a scope, the danger from scope eye might be too great for guys unaccustomed to a big bore rifle.



I remember now shooting at the metal disc. What were we 80 yards or so? Probably under 100. I think everyone hit it that tried. If it does not bleed when I shoot it I have a difficult time recalling the exact details!







This is the rifle John Ricks built for me. From the action up it's all hand made by John. This is not the original stock. We first used a cheap one to cut carve and fit to my needs. Then we had this laminated walnut stock made to the same dimensions. The Checkering was done by Sherry Abrahams in Portland and the stock was finished by both John and Me. There is a ton of resin in that wood from the lamination process! Sanding and finishing was a real effort! We also used a shimmed Peep until the load developement was complete. Once I had the bullets in the right place John Machined one out of a soild piece of steel to the exact dimensions needed. Now I could drop, drag or accidently knock about this rifle and my sights will never be out of whack. With the Red front post under that hood it's a no brainer to point and shoot to 100 yards.

What.....a model 70 with a crooked lug, has difficulting feeding and a cast steel extractor that isn't tempered???? Say it ain't so John, say it ain't so!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And here I thought, just because the model 70 is a CFR action that it fed and extracted everything perfectly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JJ, some people just have to have a big rifle, whether they ever shoot it or not or only shoot it once on a big game hunt. I know several that have one of "those" rifles and have gobbs of money into them. They will never shoot them, nor will they go to Africa, but they have one, just in case <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is the dream and fantasy of nearly every hunter to live as Peter Capstick and others did in Africa. Sitting on a water hole big bore across their lap, stroking fine grained walnut stock and secretly hoping that maybe, just maybe, they will have a DG experience and get to use it. Oh, what stories they could tell around a campfire for the rest of their lives.

I just met with a guy that returned from Canada with a record book sheep. He bought a .300 Ultra mag just for the hunt, since he was wounding too many animals with his .30-06 (which I laughed at). He claimed his hunting buddy shot a deer 14 times with a .30-06 before it died. So, they both sold the pee shooters and bought real guns. He insisted he can hit anything at 600 yards with his new wonder mag. He claims he is getting 4,200 fps out of his factory loaded 150 grain Scirroco's from Remington. He also claimed he was getting 3,900 fps out of his 180 grain factory loaded partition loads. I told him he wasn't even close to those velocities, not by a long shot. He got MAD and said I didn't know what I was talking about. He had read everything on his new wonder round and he knew what it was capable of. I offered to take him to the range right then and made him a wager on his velocities based on what the chronograph read. He declined and preferred to believe all the hype. Oh well, he has his wonder mag and can kill anything on the plannet to 600 yards and beyond. He also seriously complained about the recoil and how it wasn't fun to shoot. I seriously wanted to get him to the range and take his money, based on the fact that I KNOW he can't hit a barn standing inside it and I KNOW he isn't getting his "claimed" velocities. Damn...I could have made a pile of money off him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I have NEVER seen a guy wound so many animals in my life. Every other week he has another story about how he wounded a giant elk, deer, bear etc. with his .270 or .30-06. Ugg...I get so tired of his wind. Flinch

The stock has cast off and drop at heel & comb for exclusive peep sight use. Plus it has pitch at the butt, something you rarely see today. Butt pitch is important for recoil management, the first "try" stock on this rifle did not have any butt pitch, and the felt recoil was more. The present stock handles like a dream, and the 9-1/2 pound weight is deceiving due to the balance, it feels lighter. I have shot a 3-shot group at 80 yards with this rifle, under 5/8", with the sights shown, 500 grain Hornady, full power load.



The basic style is similar to the fine rifles built by the British gun houses between WWI and WWII for African use. I think those chaps really had the stock configuration worked out to perfection. Modern gun manufactures should take note!



Look in the Rifles forum, at the post "Brute Force and Ugliness", for a 458 Win M70 in a fiberglass stock, with the same sights.

Thanks Flinch, I needed this today!

"It is the dream and fantasy of nearly every hunter to live as Peter Capstick and others did in Africa. Sitting on a water hole big bore across their lap, stroking fine grained walnut stock and secretly hoping that maybe, just maybe, they will have a DG experience and get to use it"

I suppose I take a bit to much for granted at times. Maybe I should keep this quote taped to my computer so I realize what I have had in my life!

Probably saved your chronograph, though.

JJHACK,

Your comments about drop, pitch and stock design in general relate directly to confusion on my part concerning proper stock design. I am shopping for a .375 H&H, going back and forth between different factory offerings, and wondering if I should find a way to fund going the custom route. I have read before that the classic British stock design is superior, and I have tried to compare factory stock dimensions to try to figure this out.

For instance, with factory rifles, I note that the Ruger Magnum has considerably more drop at the comb and heel than the Winchester express rifle. If you would be so kind, may I ask if you have an opinion about the proper stock design if one must, due to poor eyesight, use a scope? Is it still preferable to have more drop than on most factory stocks, but less than with iron sights?

I realize stock fit is a personal matter, and the .375 does not recoil all that much, but a balanced rifle with a proper sight is a thing of beauty and I am, as I confessed earlier, much confused.

John, some of the old Sako stocks are engineered like you say. They have cant, cast off, perfect heel drop etc. Yup, old time craftsman are becoming pretty scarce.

Anything to help you out there JJ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You have lived and experienced the dreams that many of us will never live. Don't let the guiding become a job. I know it is tough work and can be a real pain. Once you reach the point of not understanding or feeling what your clients want to feel, you are no better than many other guides that are only driven by the job and the money. You are the dream doctor. You provide long lasting dreams and memories for people all around the world and from all walks of life. You have no idea how vast the sacrafices are of those you guide. Always keep in mind that day you first arrived in Africa as a kid out of highschool to cull overpopulated game in Africa. There were no words for the feelings and emotions you felt. Live the life of a PH, love it and keep in mind that those you are guiding are still living the dream. Jeez, I sound like a farging shrink <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

Anyone looking for a well designed stock to accomodate a post 64 model 70 would do themselves a favour by looking at a D'Arcy Echols Mcmillan. I am a lefty and have shot a Legend chambered for the 416 Rem with a mirror image laminate and have also shot a right handed Mcmillan stocked 375. Even the right handed 375 with right handed cast off (so for me it was cast on) was unbelievable in its ability to handle recoil IMO (no comparison to my LH factory, heavier, 375 Model 70 Safari Express). Absolutely fantastic.



The best part about it is that the inletted right handed blanks are only around the $320 (give or take $15) mark and could probably be had within the week (he had a few in his shop). As for the leftys, D'Arcy pretty much needs a commitment for 1000 of them before he can have Mcmillan make up the molds. If I only shot right handed.



So if you don't mind a Mcmillan stock.



Chuck



P.S. They can also be made to accomodate an MRC 99 action.

Chuck,

Was your McMillan a true drop in? Did you need to bed it or do any other work on it?

Chuck, as far as I'm concerned, the old pre-war "British-Best" stock style is obsolescent (ill-conceived from the beginning in my estimate), especially if you use a scope as your primary sighting instrument. And even then, iron sights can be successfully engineered to work properly with a stock that was correctly designed for scope use.

I'll take an American Classic style stock any day of the week, which was developed after World War II by savvy guys like Al Biesen to improve upon the old pre-war patterns, and astute users like Jack O'Connor, who were not exactly strangers to the older stock styles, jumped on board in a hurry. So why go back to that stuff now? I'm so adamant about this position that as far as I'm concerned, a gunmaker either stocks a rifle to my specifications or he doesn't get my business, pure and simple.

I agree that D'Arcy's stock pattern is as good as it gets for minimizing the effects of recoil. It handles and points instantaneously as well, and the Echols-built rifles I own are the most shootable I've ever used. But then, Echols apprenticed with Jerry Fisher as a stockmaker right after he graduated from the Colorado School Of Trades, so the end result should come as no surprise.

ADay

This stock was not mine and was attached to one of D'Arcy's Legends built for a client of his.

Yes these are just blanks that will require bedding and barrel inletting. In my mind, they are an absolute bargain and something I would have a small collection of if I shot right handed.

Chuck

I'm with Allen on stock drop. The fit will be different from person to person, but there is no requirement for large "traditional" drops at the heel of a stock.

I ahve two McMilan straight comb stocks that I use only with open sights and they work fine, not to mention they are much less recoil abusive than stocks with a lot of drop.