Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Restored vs Rat ??

I'm about on the identical page as you Gene. An all original vintage rifle with some honest and mellow wear can be just plain great. The other thing you allude to that I agree wholeheartedly with is that "safe queens" are not immune to wear. We've all heard of a "safe ding" There is almost nothing I hate worse than to accidently ding some 99% collector gun. I haven't done it a lot, but man, it hurts when it happens! Then you look at it and say, yeah that gun would be perfect if it weren't for that one ding A couple weeks ago I had a friend come over and he was handling a Ross sporter I have that is over 90 years old. It is a strong 99% with almost no blue wear on the bolt. He worked the action several times and inside, I was In many ways, the 99% guns can really be a particular burden

I guess this depends on how you define rat...some "honest and mellow wear" does not make a rat in my mind...but a cut up rear stock with a 4 inch pad and three tang crack and has been drilled and tapped, little or no blueing left and the wood that is there has a half inch of polyurethan on it, winchester rear sight....thats a rat and a prime candidate for a new "factory style" stock and a reblue, replace the butt plate and sights to orignal. WILL NOT be a profitable exchange but will make a nice gun and should have some real value in pride.
We could get to splitting hairs on what is a rat but I agree with you..I have an EG that has some normal wear, blue is more brown now, and has been drilled and tapped and I would never restore it...except for the D&T its just character...

That's the key to the whole arguement here. Defining the terms. To me sending out the metal for a reblue and replacing or refinishing the wood a restoration does not make. That to me would more define refinished as that is what was done. Some may also want to call it an up grade and they may see it as up grading the appearance of the gun from the condition that they aquired it in. Depending on what all was done there are those who might also call it a "custom." Nothing wrong with that if that's what you're striving for. On the other hand, a true restoration involves restoring the gun, as closely as possible, to the condition that it was in the day it left the factory. That's a far cry, and considerably more expensive, from just sending it out for a reblue. When you send a rifle to Turnbull you're going to get back a work of art and an excellent example of the skills involved in the operation of a good restoration shop. You're also going to spend a ton of money and end up with something that many will consider more akin to a fake than a collectable firearm. To some its worth it and to others it isn't. If there wasn't a demand shops like Turnbull's wouldn't stay in business. The only one who can decide how far they want to go with a particular firearm is the person who owns it. That's why this is an area where we're pretty much just going to have to agree to disagree. Everyone's points have merit in their eyes and as long as they're talking their money, their gun and what they plan to have done or have had done its their business. The rest of us can air our opinions but ultimately its not our gun, our money or our decision. Once that decision has been made then the only thing left for the rest of us to decide is how important it is to us to slam someone for doing something that we disagreed with. Appearently that's pretty important to some of the folks that come here. Perhaps they should invest their time more profitably by determining how and where they want to spend their money in pursuit of their firearm goals. Others here are true gentlemen and their conduct shows it.

Restored and refinished have totally different meanings. You can always spot the refinished rifle. A properly restored rifle can't be told from original without extensive and probably micrometer examination. And,it remains totally functional and frequently in continuing extensive use. The British system of restoration is a whole different ball game from a new hot blue, preceded by a rough hand on a buffing wheel, and fresh coat of varnish on the wood. North American collectors basically can't tell or know the difference and so want untouched firearm even if the firearm is in a continuing state of degradation. Cripes , even antique paintings by old masters should be properly cleaned and restored if you want to get the best dollar for them. Bet that stirs your pot!

Don't make me no never mind long as its not my gun. I do tend to prefer a proper restoration to Bubba's refinishing but that's just personal preference. Actually I tend to prefer the European model but that has never seemed to gain too much traction here. Given that someone's gonna have something done to their gun I'd rather see it done correctly but then unless I'm paying for it I really don't have anything to say about it. All y'all do whatever you want with your guns and I'll do the same with mine. Same with cars, paintings or anything else of value.

Last year I picked up what I call a rat. 1899 A in 303. Barrel was
rusty with some pitting outside,rifleing was gone for the last few inches and the front sight had been repaired by brazing. Wood has
normal dings and splits with sling studs. most numbers matched but not all. I had the barrel shortened to 22 inches, the steel bead blasted and blackened (dull) (the finish, not me). I will put a scope on in and I have ordered a laminate (black and white) stock
for it. Also had 6 holes drilled on the end of barrel (3 at 4 oclock and three at 8 oclock) (Seemed like a good idea at the time.)

If I don't like the way they work I'll make it a 20 inch. Almost forgot, I added a saddle ring. When the stock is done I just might add a compass if I can find one. This rifle will be MINE!
Made the way I want it!
You can call it what you want. BUT IT'S MINE!
I wouldn't dream of doing this to a good origional gun!

The way I see it the disdain of non-original guns is good for everyone involved. If you are an uptight collector with way too much money into your collection such talk is a firewall to your investment. If your a low life bottom feeder who finds value by your own measure and nothing else, then such disdain makes non-original guns much more affordable. It is a win-win. So I say heap scorn on all guns that have extra holes or extra whatevers. No one looses at this game. RP

excellent point rikker99, excellent

Thank goodness for "non-original" 99's. Otherwise, those of us who love to hunt with them couldn't afford them!

mpmax - I hadn't thought of it that way, but that is an interesting and valid perspective. If all the 99's out there were in original shape and high condition, the collector's safes would be filled with them and far fewer would ever have the opportunity to hunt with one. So, next time I see a 99 with the stock cut and a pad added, I won't say it is a darn shame. It just means that someone is going to pick themselves up a heck of a fine hunting rifle

De-lurking for this one.

I lucked into a "Swedish Rat" (Re-imported from Sweden). It was almost as bad as the rat he described here. Cut-down stock, modified original rear sights, Swedish front sight, bluing very worn and color case hardening pretty much gone.

I found a replacement stock, got a few key parts together, and sent everything to a company that does outstanding work on Broomhandle Masuers and Lugers. Other than having to remove the blueing from the lever, the job was actually quite good.

Its not going to fool any experts, but it looks great now.