Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General Levergun Magazine Blowup ??

Will tube magazines on leverguns really blowup if they are loaded with pointed bullets ? or is that just an old myth ?
Can anyone post a pic or a link to a pic of an exploded magazine ?

Mike

I have been told it's a "myth".. Would love to see one that had actually blown up!
Virgil B.

Look for the September 1968 issue of Guns and Ammo magazine and you will see a picture of a splintered Model 71 Winchester - .450 Alaskan.
You can read about this on page 124 of Safari Press �Gun Notes Vol. 1� but the pictures were not reproduced.

I believe there are three documented incidents of Marlin 1895 rifles chambered for .45-70 suffering magazine tube �detonations� using wide meplat lead bullets.

There are at least two recently reported incidents of reproduction Henry rifles firing a few cartridges in the magazine after having the magazine follower dropped on a less than full magazine. In both incidents the loader was pelted with case fragments which exited the slit in the magazine tube.

There was an article in Rifle mag in the past year about this. Can't recall which issue and am away from home till tomorrow otherwise I could check. Has some good info/pics.

.

A few years ago an article was published in Gun Digest where the author tried to fire a cartridge in a magazine. He could not do it, he finally resorted to helping it with a spring and plunger device and fired several in a magazine tube. No damage whatsoever to the tube, just a puff and some smoke. His conclusion was that pointed bullets are safe as any.

A year or so ago there appeared in Rifle Magazine a similar article by a different person on the same subject. Same results with pointed bullets, however, He was able to get a cartridge to fire in the magazine tube. That was done using FLAT NOSE bullets! The large calibers such as 45-70 using wide meplat bullets can fire in the tube under certain rare conditions. But again nothing much happens, just a poof and a little smoke.

One of the great myths of our hobby is the exploding cartridge myth. Cartridges ignited but not contained as in a firearm chamber do not explode with any force. In fact, as soon as the case ruptures pressure is relieved and the event is over, NO explosion. So I do not believe that a cartridge fired in a tube magazine of a Winchester 71 could blow the magazine and splintter the stock. Lots of BS gets printed but it's still BS.

.

The shooters name was Ken Lamont and the picture clearly shows extensive damage to the firearm and the the description of the damage to his hand is interesting. I am not saying there is an extreme danger but I am saying it has happened and at least one shooter experienced rather severe injuries from the experience.
If I recal correctly the Marlin 1895's were repairable and the shooters were not injured. The articles you mention are by Ballou and Scovill.

.

Sorry, Slim

I did not intend to question your credibility, only the authors in presenting the facts or all the facts. I cannot believe that the detonation of a NORMAL cartridge could blow the front end off a Marlin or Winchester.

Now, having said that, I am waiting for someone else to demonstrate it for me. While I am a prudent distance away, like another zip code.

Grins
Jim
.

No offense taken. What I was hoping for is that someone would recognize the name and tell us more about the incident.
The marlin 1895�s I have read about were only lightly damaged and rather easily repaired.
I believe several gunsmiths are venting the top of the magazine tube to help dissipate the escaping gas. The slotted vent is not sisibal between the top of the magazine tube and the bottom of the barrel.

.

I think it's possible to see very minor damage in some events. Would depend on factors such as how much space is around the cartridge when it let go. A 45-70 that is a snug fit in the tube would be more dangerou than a 25-20 in the same diameter tube.

.

Well stated.
Here is some additional information. I�ll look up the old Marlin Talk thread and list the posters who had the problems with Buffalo Bore ammo in the Marlin Model 1895, .45-70.

375Winhh posts on the Firing Line and he posted in October of 2000 he had a �detonation� in his Marlin .375 Winchester while using 430-grain Buffalo Bore ammunition � wide meplat - hard lead.

In the 2002 issue of the Gun Digest R. W. Ballou wrote �Tubular Magazines �Are Safe�. Ballou is the experimenter who built the firing device for the magazine tube and deliberately fired the cartridges.

Dave Scovill has written a column entitled �Rumors� where he took a similar position to R. W. Ballou. In general terms Scovill stated: that while there have been incidents where �detonations� have happened, it does not happen very often.

Discounting the one incident involving the Winchester Model 71, it appears the �recent� incidents have involved Marlin rifles and wide meplat � hard lead bullets.
Anyone familiar with my posts on the .218 Bee from the Beartooth forum knows I have used 40-grain Nosler BT�s in the magazine of my 1894CL without difficulty � I am not advocating this practice, simply stating I do it on occasion.

I remember the incident reported by Elmer Keith where the M71 blew up. These are the facts that I recall: 1. The .450 Alaskan ( I believe this was the caliber) was loaded to near .458 Win. ballistics 2. The forend was solidly glass bedded to the tube, thereby creating a gas tight chamber 3. The mag tube split longitudinally 4. The shooter lost part of his hand.

I think the sealed tube was the most important factor in this mishap. If gas relief ports had been present, an incident would have been much less severe.

.

Thanks for the info.

I can believe that in a sealed magazine damage will occur. A sealed magazine would be just like a large or oversized chamber, the pressure would be there but not as much. Recoil of a .450 full house load could cause things to happen.

.

The load mentioned in the article was 60.0 grains of IMR 3031 and a 500-grain lead, gas check, round nose bullet. If we take a rough look at the .450 Alaskan with a COAL of 2.795 and a water capacity of 88.0 grains, using the Lyman 457137 Postel bullet weighing 535 grains, with an overall length of the bullet at 1.434� and seated .784� deep we are left with a powder capacity of 55.4 grains of water.
The Powley computer suggests IMR 4320 and using a 24� barrel (22.43� effective length) the velocity is estimated at 1,775 fps with an estimated pressure of 57,900 CUP. This load would give us about 3,700 fpme.
Making allowances for a shorter and lighter bullet this still a powerhouse load. I�ll wager you could develop a recoil induced headache quickly shooting from the bench and this experimenter shot thousands of rounds through his rifle before the accident.

Although a cartridge (or more) may "shoot off" in a tube magazine, it is extremely rare. It has been done by accident and on purpose.
I doubt that any magazine tube is "sealed" and may act like a chamber of sorts, simply due to the fact that ALL magazine tubes are BIGGER then the cartridge rims. This allows rhe rounds to enter the tubes easily. They are also open at the load gate area.
One can easliy drill small holes, or cut thin slits, on top of the magazine tube to disperse any gas pressure. These holes, being in between the barrel and tube, will not be easy to see. Usually, the forearm will hide these holes, too.
One "problem" with a Marlin magazine tube, if one considers it a problem, is where the cartridges enter the tube itself. As the rounds go into the loading gate, they must "turn" into the magazine. To allow this entry, the tube has a bulge for clearence. (You can take off the forearm of a 45-70, and see this bulge, near the action, on the left side.)
The "problem" lies with this bulge. It allows the cartridge's tip to sit far more to the left side in the tube/bulge, making the meplat edge sit on the primer of the round in front of it. Under a serious blow, this may cause an accidental discharge. The stronger the ammo the harder the recoil, right? You see where I'm going with this? "Regular" level ammo won't have this problem, its usually "magnum" ammo (but not always).
One solution someone came up with is to remove the bulge via grinding, and cover it with a flexible piece of steel ie feeler guage. This alows the rounds to enter, yet will be forced to remaim inline. I don't know exactly how he attached the feeler guage, but says it does work. I also forget who it was, this was at the old Marlin Talk site.

I will test it if someone will send me a rifle, I am not using mine..

Sounds like a great episode of "Myth Busters" on the discovery channel.

I would want this done on a 30-30 using "normal" loading pressures (no super hot or +p loading) of pointed bullets. This I think explains why the 35 Rem and I think 30-30 150 grain bullets that look very pointed to me are safe for use in mag tube fed lever actions. The risk just is not there.

I suspect (with absolutely no proof) that with these lower recoiling levers it will not likely happen with a 170,180 or even 200 grain bullet, or if it does is a relative non event. But Hornady would not want to hear this as the sale of their Leverelution ammunition would possibly fall.

I'm so happy with my Remington round nose 200 grain 35 Rem ammunition to really care. The range I hunt and shoot at, if I hand loaded I'd actually go to a 200+ grain cast with flat metplat. To each their own.

I will put a steel pointed cartridge in the Mag with several factory loads in front to get the factory loads to fire and see what the damage would be to the Mag. tube. I am more intrested in the damage than weather it would fire, because I am sure that withall the hand loads out there someone has seated a primer so tight it will fire with the slightest pressure on it. so I am waiting for your 94 winchester to try out...