Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Question For JJ On 9.3x74r

...greetings, jj,

...i just wanted to know whether you had any thoughts on the use of a 9.3x74r (norma orxy 285 grain) double for cape buffalo and lion...

...the cartridge is sometimes maligned when compared to, say, the .375h&h (300 grain barnes solid), but when i look at the norma ballistics charts the 9.3 seems to be the better cartridge at any distance beyond 100 yards (where the two cartridges are virtually identical energy-wise)...

...as an aside, i really enjoyed your 'nasty thorns' story, and must say that you are indeed a gentleman and professional...

...thanks for your thoughts...

...te...

te

The 9.3x74R is much closer to a 35 Whelan than a 375 Holland, even the flanged. It puts out the 285 at around 2300, 300fps and 30 grains less than the 375. The rifle is regulated for factory ammo and uploading it will only screw up your regulation. Add to the fact that the case just will not hold as much powder.

It is marginal for thick skinned game but lights out on Lion and anything in the plainsgame catagory. It is probably not even legal in most countries, not that that has stopped many people. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

IMO, you are just asking for trouble using a 9.3x74R or 375 Flanged on buff or lion. I consider the 375 H&H Magnum the minimum for both, as they have worked "good enough" in my experience, but it was hardly overkill.

I've heard all the stories about plinking these two critters with smaller cartridges.

I haven't used one, but did look at a few when I was double rifle shopping--they are about the cheapest medium bore doubles you can find (although none of them are really cheap anymore), and the Norma ammo has a good rep. It beats the old 9.3 Mauser by about 100 fps with the 286 gr bullet, and the old Mauser was "the most widely used medium bore in Africa", "a simply splendid general purpose cartridge", according to John "Pondoro" Taylor. "I have not heard of anybody with a complaint to make concerning the 9.3mm cartridge". It should be noted that he assumed that the hunter would also have a heavy double along for followup in thick cover. Remember he's talking about the less powerful 9.3 Mauser, not the 9.3x74.
Boddington, in his "Safari Rifles" says the 9.3x74R "thanks to its excellent bullets.....has been used with great success on game up to elephant. For my money it's a bit light for such work, but has certainly proven itself adequate for cats, buffalo, and all manner of plains game."
Boddington also says it "offers one of the best opportunities to find an affordable double that is adequate for dangerous game".
You can give whatever weight you choose to Taylor and Boddington, both have their fans and detractors. But there is no doubt that Taylor killed more elephant than any man alive today, so I tend to credit his opinions.
I'd grab a nice light 9.3x74R in a heartbeat, and would not hesitate to use it for lion, eland, and any plains game. I might hesitate a little before using it on buffalo, since my rule for them is the more, the merrier. But you'd certainly be in good company if you did.

Steve

Taylor was referring to the 9.3x 62 not the 9.3x57. The 9.3x62 was the ballistic twin of the 9.3x74 in the 'olden days'.

Taylor is also far down the list of Elephant slayers, 1500 by his count. There are a couple around today that have shot over 3,000 and are still 'plugging away' at it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That being said I think his opinion is shared by the vast majority experienced African Hunters.

Mickey, yeah, I know he wasn't talking about the 9x57. But he was talking about the then-current 9.3x62 Kynoch loads of 285 gr @2175 for 3000 ME. You are talking about ( I guess) the newer loads that deliver a 293 gr. @ 2430 for 3843 ME, which is a significantly more powerful animal.
The 9.3x74R, at 2280 fps for a 285 gr with 3291 ME, is not really the ballistic twin of either version, but splits the difference on the low side (although at DG ranges with good shot placement and good bullets, I doubt the animal would much care about the difference).
Who is around today with 3000 elephant kills? I guess it would have to be some Control Officer, or maybe a door gunner on a Cuban helicopter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Have they written anything? I suppose you'd have to use a pseudonym today or PETA would hunt you down and burn you at the stake. Regards, Steve

...i appreciate all of your comments, and will most certainly heed your recommendations in terms of the use of the 9.3x74r cartridge...

...i would also appreciate any actual ph advice (jj???) in terms of the field results of clients who have, in fact, used the 9.3x74r cartridge for game up to and including cape buff and lion...

...i selected the 9.3 calibre for the following reasons: (1) the existence of a 'rim' for fail-safe ejection purposes; (2) impracticality of using a .470ne or similar cartridge for general hunting situations; (3) ability to fit additional smooth-bore barrels (20 and 28 gauge) to the action (which i intend to take with me for some wing-shooting whilst in africa); and (4) ballistic equivalence of the 9.3 to the .375 flange (or, indeed, .375hh at distances over 100 yards)...

...on the last point, the norma ballistic charts show that a 285 grain onxy soft-point 9.3 will travel 100fps faster, and yield the same me, as the .375hh (300 grain barnes solid), at 100 yards, and, in fact, will be the superior round (fps and me-wise) at distances greater than 100 yards...

...it is assumed that a factory 9.3 and .375hh cartridge will be used for a double because of regulation problems, as one poster has noted...

...thanks again...

...te...

I have not ignored this post,........... I have been away for a while. I also think is has been clearly answered by others already. I have copied a post from a couple weeks ago on a nearly identical topic and moved it here rather then type it all over again.



I would not likely use this on Buffalo or Lion myself if it were my hunt. The cost of these animals is just to high to use anything less then the proper or minimum setup. Just my opinion, with a Buffalo and lion combo hunt exceeding 30K I think the investment in a "perfect" rifle is minimal. If you were dead set on this rifle it will work with good loads and premium bullets by using self discipline on the shots you take. The cartridge falls well short of the 375HH using a max load but still has the power to take anything alive with good shot placement.





Here is the Post I moved to this thread:







Well well, lots of interesting thoughts on this! Now for some hard data that will give you fact based results!



For about 15 or so years I owned a Thompson Contender with a barrel chamberd for a cartridge called the 375JDJ. This is a 444 marlin necked down to 375 diameter and shot a 270 grain bullet at just a hair over 2000 fps. This nearly identical to the load you have in question here.



With this "handgun" I killed dozens of black bears and recovered very few bullets. One of the black bears was 7'10" square from SE Alaska. If I recall properly there were 2 brownies shot with this gun, and American bison, countless hogs, and most of the more common species of plains game in Africa. This was only by me!



JD Jones who invented this round killed all the big five several times over with this cartridge using 300 grain solids. Not to mention the countless thousands of head taken by him and the others who owned this cartridge. A couple observations on this. The Hornady 270's will not open properly or not at all below 2000 fps. They are just as hard as a rock, as well they should be. They were designed for impact velocities as much as 30% higher! The Nosler 260 Grain Partition on the other hand is an absolute gem in this cartridge as it will open flawlessly every time. I have many recovered from bigger animals. The big 7'10" Black bear I shot with this gun was a measured 175 yards away and went through both shoulders and exited. This bear was killed on the beach and could not be moved it was so heavy. He would easily have gone 450 pounds and likely much more. I am no novice at estimating bear weights. It was part of my job as a Black bear damage contol manager for 10 years of my life. I weighed hundreds of bears on a scale so my estimate is not based on a simple guess.



If this bullet will exit an animal that large from that 175 yard distance you should have no problem whatsoever in hunting the basic plains game using it. There are better bullets today then when I owned my 375JDJ. Swift and Nosler both make bullets I never had the chance to experiment with. I would look long and hard at the 375 caliber ballistic tip from Nosler. That will flatten your trajectory out a bit and at the reduced velocity you should not have bullet failure issues. If you want a proven bullet then use the 260 partition. Without exageration I have killed in excess of 100 big game using that bullet. Very few were recovered, those that were looked perfect and were usually under the skin on the exit side. Alomst all my shots on bigger game were broadside or passed up with this cartridge.



Now for the other side of this question. WHY so slow?



Things only get better with the 375 diameter as you go up from your 2100fps velocity. If you could push these to 2400 you will have an excellent rifle for the bush. At least try to get them higher then the 2100MV your after. The additional velocity will put game down much faster and allow you more hunting time, instead of tracking time. I know 100% first hand that the 375JDJ will kill big game. That does not make it a good choice when you travel so far to hunt for such a short time. It's why I no longer have it. I used it and was very successful with it. It cannot compare to the higher velocity of the rifle though. I would not risk a hunt of a lifetime that far away and that expensive with the JDJ cartridge today. I would use as much power as I could handle to assure any shot presentation could be taken without risk. The JDJ cartridge was great with the disipline to turn down the less then perfect shots. With that power level you will be limited to broadside shots on most species. Quartering away and straight away are not an option. Even quartering towards you will be risky because you will not get an exit on a length wise entry and then one hole for blood to escape leaves a poor blood trail with a front shoulder entry.



Hope this helps with your plans, Oh and by the way. I'll take you with this cartridge no problem! We will harvest a boat load of game with it!

...many thanks, jj, for your response and suggestions...

...at this point, the 9.3 (with extra smooth bore barrels) is already a 'done deal', so i will probably take it with me when i tag along next summer with colleagues on a trip to tanzania (them, leopard and lion; me, zebra, kudu and maybe buff)...

...the real fascination with the 9.3/.20 gauge combo (and maybe a scoped .30-06 merkel single for plains game) was the possibility of putting everything in a small 30-inch sized americase...and the fact that the norma ballistics charts indicate the near equivalence of the 9.3 and .375HH at 100 yards (9.3/.375 fps at muzzle = 2362/2493; 9.3/.375 me at muzzle = 3513/4140)...

...in any case, i have been following your trmendously informative posts, and think it would be great to hunt with you on future adventures...

...thanks, again...

...te...

where on the net can I find the ballistic charts that say the 9.4x74R passes ahead of the .375 Flanged Magnum and/or the .375 H&H Belted Magnum beyond 100 yards? I always thought the Flanged was somewhat, and the Belted way, ahead of the 9.3 at all ranges.

It doesn't.

...miki,

...if you go to www.norma.cc you will find a graphical ballistics chart that visually plots the trajectory, v and me of various cartridges that norma manufactures...

...for comparison purposes, and since my focus was on pre-regulated double rifles, i assumed the use of standard factory ammunition with bullets that i would actual use on a hunt (9.3 with 285 grain orxy; .375 with 300 grain barnes solid)...

...at 100 yards, the norma chart indicates the following results: 9.3/.375 v = 2110fps vs. 2054fps; me = 2820flbs vs. 2812flbs...also, the 9.3 trajectory is flatter than both the .375 flanged and the .375hh...

...i am sure that a hand-loaded .375hh round in a bolt action single would easily surpass the 9.3 in all relevant criteria...however, for my purposes, and given my preference for doubles, the 9.3 appears more than satisfactory for my requirements state-side and abroad...i also note that featured phs in the african hunter magazine (e.g., ganyana) favor the similar 9.3x62 for all species of game, dangerous included...

...i suppose this is what makes our sport uniquely delightful, the ability to consciously choose a personalized 'tool' for your hunting quest in terms of action, barreling, calibre, bullet, etc...i also suppose there are no right answers, but given my distain for my bulkier, heavier bolt/falling block actions (.416 rigby/.458win.mag.), the 9.3 seems to suit me well at this point, and to be sufficiently adequate for my hunting needs...

...te...