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no doubt you have some experience bping Brad, of which we all benefit by you sharing your experience.

I've got 4 pair of Crocs now and use them all the time, bping, in my boat, knocking round the house and had never seen them till you posted a pic of you wearin the ugly things. Who knows how long I'd have gone before I realized what a neat little piece of footwear they really are? tis just one example that was of use to me personally.


but I can see the other side of this pancake too.


don't know what you did for a living before turnin to house buildin, but my guess if you had a potential buyer for one of your houses and some guy started spouting off about the "perceived shortcomings" of said domicile it could tend to rankle you and understandably so from my viewpoint, especially if you feel you do a good job building a house or a pack or whatever.


Dan can't possibly be up to speed (though perhaps he is he did mention Wiggy wars) about the negative vibes the sales tactics of
JW and unfortunately sometimes Marc ultimately have on so many of us that buy outdoor gear like Imelda Marcos bought shoes.

imo he'd be better served by taking a bit more laid back approach in his response to your criticism of his wares, particularly since you stated you're just guessing.


course that's coming from some azzhat that knocked a guy out right in the middle of his store on a busy Sat. afternoon in the last couple of months, ( I can't always be Cool hand Luke either)


you stated an opinion and with the qualifiers you gave, I think most of us that have much experience would not be swayed too much by it, but guys looking to gain experience possibly might I guess.

all of your potential negative points or concerns about Dan's packs could be answered one by one.

for all I know a two piece belt may be the best way.


sometimes the old ways are the best ways, I still feel an onery kid can best be served by a good azz whuppin, though it ain't the
modern view.

you've got a world more experience bping than Don, but he's had both the MR and the McHale packs I'd take his experience over how they perform over yours in that case, but that's just how I operate.

course I'm aware we all have to justify to some degree where we ultimately end up parking our bping dollars and by doing so we often end up with an emotional investment as well as a $$ one.

kute swears by Van Gorkum boots, I've no doubt they're good for him, but for me personally if I'm giving $1600 C$ for something the damn thing better eat hay!

My fave boots are a pair of Nike (yeah that's right Nike) ACG, they are light, give me enough ankle support and grip rock very well. gave $60 bucks for them out of STP if I could find more I'd buy them.

I also have Salomon's, La Sportiva's, Montrails, Technica's, Cabela's Mtn Hunters, and Han Wags. but for sheep hunts the ACG's are my fave, based on what works for me, and I've enough experience to know what that is.


I'm glad you share your experiences Brad, along with everyone else here, including Kute, but what works for you ain't always gonna be my gig though sometimes it is.


And Dan, I'm glad you're here, but relax a little bit sir, give the rest of us some credit, most of us aren't going to write off your wares cause someone says "I haven't used it, but here's what I think about it" maybe a few, but not enough to worry about.

if I was in your shoes, I'd look at these places as a real opportunity to educate and enlighten folks as to why what you build works and the reasoning behind it.

it's a slower process and more tedious but you certainly can gather more flies with honey rather than vinegar.

the last thing you want to do imo&e is take the Wiggy marketing course and subscribe to it.

I go back and forth whether I could enjoy hanging with Marc or whether it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

but I have very few doubts if Wiggy came up with a bag that weighed a pound kept you comfortable from -30 to +50, was waterproof, bulletproof and hurtled your sweat vapor to Pluto that he could sell me one for $65 bucks.

I'm not interested in anything he has for sale, but that's just me, there's still guys here that I respect that use his stuff.

in truth I haven't thrown the bag away I bought from him, it rides in my boat, cause I won't shed any tears if someone steals it.

but all the bullchit about AK weather, tent be blown down and you're left with your bag to survive in doesn't rock me, I've slept in enough really foul weather and spent enough time in a tent in bear country that the boogey man ain't gonna sell me chit.

anyhoo bottom line is I hope this pizzin match is over

and hope you'll stick around, I'd like to know more about your packs, I'm sure a bunch of us would.

but I ain't lookin for Brad to be run off either, he's rubbed some folks the wrong way I suppose, but he's still done some chit that's not to be discounted either.

I would atrongly agree with 1AK and did with Dakotan, that is a fine post. This is the ONLY forum on the net that I visit consistently and I do so more out of friendship than any other reason. So, I hope to see all participants here get along reasonably well, whatever their gear preferences may be.

What I REALLY wish the gear designers would come up with is sets of 21 yr. old lungs and legs, replacements for geezers past 60, like me!

I hear what you are saying 1AKHunter.

I am answering to the foam laminating equipment question too. Like I said before, my customers come to me for something different than what they have already experienced. I don't believe in the thick sofa-like belts that you cannot get to grab the hips adequately. My customers don't come back and ask for me to beef up their belt either - they typically are amazed that they found a belt that works yet does not have all 'the right stuff'. Hardly any company has foam laminating equipment anyway. The foam people do this stuff at the contract level. We live in a world of specialties. One of my foam suppliers offers the laminating service but I do not need it. There is a fine line between getting a belt to grab the hips and not. I prefer to make the belt the way I want. Not all advancements are advancements. Much of what goes on in the industry is driven by novice ignorance and much of it by reviewers that don't even really know how to operate a pack. The result is a combination of stuff that looks awesome but does not perform. It's one of the things driving the UL industry - the packs just aren't working. The Ironic thing about that is that the the UL packs are not working either because it's all taken to the extreme. It's no wonder people like both my light packs and heavier duty packs. The same thing has happened to many shoulder pads. They are so ridiculously overbuilt they cannot possibly be comfortable. There is so much competition to do the wrong solution because it looks cool, that you cannot possibly do the right thing and survive. My CM hip belt page:
http://www.mchalepacks.com/sarc/03.htm

Well said 1akhunter

Thanks for explaining the belt system Dan, would love to hear more of your thoughts on what makes a good pack work. Call me old school but I'm much more interested in "go" than "show" and I'd rather save a while longer and get quality. I tend to think there are quite a few out there like me who could benefit from your experience and input on a forum like this.

McHalesNavy:

Thanks for the explanation, I was hoping for something like that. It's great to hear different opinions on this stuff from guys who are in the middle of it, and IMHO, that's the best thing about forums like this.

And no offense, but I always liked "The Beverly Hillbillys" better, couldn't ever get in sync with that "Leadbottom" Bighampton character. Now Ensign Parker, he was somethin' else.

1AK, well said.

Very well said 1AK. I vote for your immediate promotion back to Kahuna.

I never really watched McHale's Navy. I was always outside too much or building something. It's good name recognition though!

Like Tx Trapper said, I might be working with him to finish a project I started in the 90s to build even more of a hybrid internal/extenal than the CM packs are now.

Dan, I think one of your customers explained the benefits of your packs as well as anyone has so far (last person in the Customer Gallery), and he didn't have to get into technical specifics.


"This is my 5th full size pack since 1971 � all major respected brands in their day, external and internal � and I can unequivocally state that your product is absolutely the best. I�d like you to know that I really appreciate what you accomplish by combining sensible design, premium materials and custom fit. The irony is that one can only truly appreciate how it rides after you realize you haven�t thought about your loaded pack for the last couple hours on the trail.

John Peltier"



Granted that's only one man's opinion, but it's based on 35yrs of trail experience, and expressed in a clear, hype-free manner. It's the kind of comment that makes me place an order. New, flashy technology, or old, proven technology doesn't matter as much as results. You've obviously figured out the correct ballance to obtain those results.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Isn't this April Fools Day? I thought I should say something. I have not heard any mention of it anywhere yet. Did they cancel it?

Check the Hunters Campfire section. Someone's prolly already played a joke of some sort. Kids......

howza bout we just reserve that for a "get your foot outa your mouth free" card.


cause you know I'll eventually need it!


but appreciate the kind comments from everyone, but tis evident most of us feel the same way bout this gig, we come here to learn, if we want to cyber spar, we can hook up at the campfire thread and talk politics, or perfect size of breasts or sumpthin

I like this forum, regardless of the heated disagreements. I have learned mucho. Eat the hay and spit out the stubble.

McHalesNavy.

Your last few posts are more to my liking. What most people here want is good information. The vast majority of the readers at 24hourcampfire have been around the block. Any comments about a product given by someone that has never used it are taken with a grain of salt no matter how much experience that person has with gear. This is something that Mark Taylor found out when he spoke smack about the new Kifaru sleeping bags.

I have an Osprey Atmos 65 and like it for summer hot weather day hikes. I have several Kifaru packs and enjoy them too. The downside of the Atmos being I would never truly trust it on a hunt or off trail hikes though heavy brush. The Kifaru Military packs are seemingly indestructible. I am certain if someone exploded an A-bomb near me the only thing remaining would be my shadow burnt into the ground and my EMR or Pointman. But the downside is I really don�t want my pack weighing 24% of my load for my AT trips.

I have been looking at the new Osprey larger packs like the Argon 110 or 85.

http://www.ospreypacks.com/Packs/ArgonSeriesMens/Argon110/

For the life of me I don�t see why the 110 only comes in blue and the 85 comes in 3 colors. I like the Kelp. Maybe I will email Osprey as to the reasons why. Anyways I am not decided. I want a strong pack. A pure UL pack just is not worth the few pounds as I use my gear a great deal.


I need a pack with the following characteristics.

1. 6500 ci or larger.
2. 6.5 lbs or less with a preference on less.
3. Must have easy to access canteen holders and a place to store my Platy system
4. No crazy colors
5. Things like top lid gear storage for small items like LED headlight and cell phone etc.
6. Enough straps and pockets to be useful but nothing silly for the sake of looks.
7. Must be able to hump 50lbs with ease. Need 45-50 for winter.
8. Willing to add extra weight within reason for durability.

I guess that sums it up. I have not decided on the Osprey or any other pack for that matter. As stated this is strictly an AT thing. So what pack in your lineup would best?

Excellent idea---------I'd love to have a few of those cards myself.

AK, I'm the one on this forum that has consistently said there is NO such thing as a "best" pack, despite posters who constantly want to say there is.

One poster in particular answers "Mystery Ranch" to every pack question... that's flatly wrong in my book. Hell, I can get any MR pack I want for cost because I've sent the boys so many customers. If Dana's design philosophy (talking about harness design) fits your body then you're blessed with a great pack. If it doesn't work on your body (like it doesn't on me) there's no way it can be "the best" for you and no pack at wholesale, if it doesn't work on your individual body, can be "best."

Starting this year, I've been carrying internals only for exactly thirty years, and have had, literally, dozens. I like backpacks, and am always looking for the Holy Grail. Since I generally now know what works on my body (FOR ME ALONE) through a LOT of trial and error, I tend to rule out stuff immediately that I've already done, or stuff that looks just like packs I've already owned.

Since I'm ME, and not YOU, I can only write about what has worked for me. If you notice, I never label anything "best"... I just relate what has worked for me, trying to give an honest report, warts and all.

My body doesn't do thin waist belts like what's on the McHale. Some peoples bodies do, do them. I also don't do thick, mushy, unarticulated belts. My bony hips like a thick belt that's articulated and is more rigid... that's why I found bliss with the Osprey Crescent belt (and entire suspension), even if there are many features about the Crescent I don't like. For me, the no.1 thing on a pack is the suspension, period. The rest I can work around if the suspension works for my body. I also loved the old Dana Design belts from the 90's.

Bottom line, I don't give a rat's azz about brand or how much or little a piece of gear costs. What impresses me is what works for me or my body. There's no way in hell I'd spend what McHale wants for one of his packs when most of the features on his packs are something that I've already used in one fashion or another and found didn't work for me.

I gave credit to McHales design where I think it's due as far as what my likes and dislikes are, and if you cared to notice, I did mention I think his stuff is bullets made. The houses I design and build will never suit everyone, but will suit some and they're made stout for hell. You'll never find a better built home than what I cobble together even if every (or most) feature doesn't suit your tastes. Saying so would never rankle my feelers because I live in the real world where there is no such thing as "best." There's just personal taste and opinion to match individual tastes and requirements. But I guess a career background in fine art and graphic arts with some teaching thrown in (with a lot of other occupations, mostly construction related, to boot) prepared me to understand that about design and peoples wishes/opinions.

AS I'VE SAID 1000 TIMES HERE YMMV, and should vary.

The day we can't politely cuss and discuss gear here is the day this forum is dead. Dan McHale, here and on other forums, has been an argumentative, "my way or highway" personality that, while I never intneded to rankle, is very easy to rankle. He's thin skinned. I can't help that, but there's no way I won't give an observation or opinion as to what I think, nor will I kiss someone's azz here either or go out of my way to offend. Thing about offense is you can "take offense" or leave it alone.

I usually do my best to qualify my opinion as just that, MY OPINION FOR ME ALONE, but obviously some people are incapable of reading.

Not all opinion's are created equal and if a guy has owned two or three internal frame backpacks in his life and has been at this just a couple of years and writes glowing reports about each purchase, I tend to put much less weight in that opinion. But that's just me. Some guys are in and out of love on a daily basis with gear and chit. I just like stuff that works for me.

YMMV...

PS, I've wasted too much time on this chit this am... I've got a house to finish and a family to move in less than two weeks. Since I built nearly 3,000 sf by myself and have had nearly every moment of my life consumed for exactly a year, if my post comes off as a bit testy, could be I'm worn thin. Have averaged about one day off per 14 days for an entire year. Not an excuse, just stating reality. AK, you're a good hearted soul and there's no missing that and I value you, your opinions, experience and friendship.

I've got two McHale packs. One is a monster load hauler with the full on harness. The other is a light framed day pack with the simple harness. Both are extremely well built and fit superbly because they were fitted to me. That's part of what you're buying. I'm a picky guy with gear, I've never seen a better sewn pack than this stuff.
Both packs are built on similar principles but they are very different. I've owned, used, borrowed etc. several brands and types of packs in 20 years of backpacking and hunting. Dan's packs are second to no one else's. By the way, I coveted a Dana pack for years but couldn't afford it then. His MR stuff looks great but I envy no one else's stuff at this point.

Dan McHale's not blowing smoke when he says his bypass harness is better than the usual two part load control/shoulder harness adjustment. I can't explain it better than others already have, it just works without fuss or complication or failure. I'll throw in that I have my light pack with the simple lightweight non-adjustable guide harness. It works because it's fitted to be the right length for the user (me). It works really well even with loads that are really outside the envelope of that pack design.
As for the hipbelt, well, opinions may vary but I can say my load hauler hip belt is the best belt I've ever used. I used a heavy Gregory pack for a while that was close but it wasn't as good for me. More foam doesn't equal more comfort. The difference is that the McHale belt works with less overall tension so you don't feel like you're being squeezed with a stupid heavy load. Even with very heavy loads I don't have to crank the belt to keep the pack from creeping down my hips. Again, hard to explain but it works very well.
I think most of us agree that MR, Osprey, and Kifaru build great stuff. They may be best for you or your buddy. The same comment applies to your super premium preferred pack of carry. If it fits and carries well, then more power to you.
By the way, since you have to go through a demo process to fit a McHale pack, you get to use his packs before you commit to buy. It's similar to a rental fee if you decide to not buy a pack.
I spent the money for the McHale packs, told Dan what I wanted them for, took his advice, made my choices and I'm happy. His designs aren't dated or otherwise inferior. They are extremely well built, thoughtfully and expertly designed, and well fitted.

good post Brad,


sounds like there's some history between you and McHale, so it is what it is.


one of the things you stated is that "you know what works for you"

tis one of the reasons I value your postings, you don't come off with "if you ain't using this, you're missing the boat"


I think most guys that have done serious bping for awhile realize how individual it really is.

My bestest pard who is a helluva an outdoorsman and I have mucho similar gear, cause it's chit we've found to work. But we also have gear that is vastly different because what works for him doesn't always work for me and vice versa.

and while we do spend some time denigrating each others gear purchases while afield it's all in good fun, cause we both know that each of us is accomplished enough to get what needs done with the outfit we've equipped ourselves with.

you can't buy experience, but you can get reasonable suggestions as to what "MIGHT" work for you based on others experiences and trial and errors.

perfect example is my boot preference, I truly love those Nike boots and will be sad when they are used up.

but I don't come on here touting that anyone that doesn't use them is all wet. (and neither did you about Dan's packs imo)

I've no doubt the majority of folks would be better served with Han Wags or Van Gorkums, but ime, they are not the best choice for me for sheep hunts.

I feel pretty confident I could take the gear I used on my first sheep hunt and still do fine.

but I've refined my gear, thanks in part to this board.

Crocs go with me now, tks to you.


Montbell replaced my Mtn. Hdwre. jacket thanks to EdT.

I've got an MR pack now tks to kute and Don selling his based on gettin a McHale.

I use a Gerber saw now instead of a homemade one and that is due to the Kifaru board.


yep these places are cool and they save lots of time, research and I'd like to think money, but it seems they really cost me money. lol

but bottom line while a guy can use these boards to narrow down the choices, he still has to find what works for him.

the MR pack I bought I just used to do our GC trip, I was favorably impressed with it's load carrying ability.

but whether it replaces my Barney's external (talk about old school) for sheep hunts remains to be seen after this years training runs.

I've got a hankering to try a McHale pack, but it probably won't be this year, just too busy doing other stuff.

[quote=Brad]

One poster in particular answers "Mystery Ranch" to every pack question... that's flatly wrong in my book.

If, as it appears, this is a reference to me and my posted opinions, it is an over-simplification of what I have posted during my tenure at the Campfire. I DO strongly recommend MR packs as Dana's packs have worked so very well for me for about 30 years. I DO NOT state and never have, that they are the ONLY packs that anyone should consider or that they are the "best" for everyone.

I DO think, that IF, they fit you, a constant in ALL gear choices from packs, to boots to sleeping bags to even your gonch, THEN, they are the best PRODUCTION heavyduty, hunting suitable packs that I have ever used. This should clarify things so that further confusion will not ensue.

PS, I've wasted too much time on this chit this am.

I totally agree, I think that ALL of us are quite capable of reading posts by others and deciding what is valuable for us and what is not. The final word on packs, etc. is far from being written and I, for one, hope to see Dan McHale contribute here regularly, just as I would enjoy Dana Gleason's and Patrick Smith's doing so.

I come here to learn, enjoy camaraderie and, hopefully, use my 44 years of very active backapcking to help others with making choices about gear that is, for most, a challenge to afford. Nobody is the final "expert" and everyone will need/use slightly different items for each type of activity, but, buying top quality gear is never a mistake, IMHO.

WoodsWalker; Sounds like you want a big pack but if you are not going to carry more weight than you say you could go either way; get a big CM pack or an oversize Sarc series. For the AT lighter would be better I suppose.

As for Brad's defense above, I would like to ask him what features of my packs he has experienced while using other packs. He has mentioned the thin belt, which is not all that 'thin' being 5/8" dense foam. It is not thin like Mountain Smiths' light thin Omnibelts on their light packs. He has not had 2 buckles on a belt. 2 buckles according to Brad, are there to make up for other deficiences of the belt. What packs have you experienced the BYPASS harness on? Since Brad has had experience with most of the features on my packs with other packs as he says, I would like for him to elaborate.[ The simple truth is these features are not to be found on other packs.

I don't buy this idea that just because someone labels what they say as opinion, that the opinion should go unchallenged. If someone wants to speak about things they really have no knowledge of, they should expect to be challenged. If you don't have time for this Brad, maybe you should learn to be more accurate in what you say. As far as taking offense; If something is way inaccurate everyones lights should go off. You have been all over the map. The things you have said in this thread are a cut and paste from what you said at Backpacker.com at the same time last year.

I don't have time either, so I don't buy your sob story about being behind in building your house. I am way behind after a motorcycle/scooter crash in February that totaled the bike and broke my left arm and wrist and tore up my left shoulder. I have hardly lost a day of work though, and have plenty of time for you. Here's the quote from you Brad; "There's no way in hell I'd spend what McHale wants for one of his packs when most of the features on his packs are something that I've already used in one fashion or another and found didn't work for me."


I should say too, I'm not here to sell you a pack Brad, or anyone else here for that matter. People use these sites for research. I just want things to be real. I've got more business than I know what to do with. That won't stop me in my little quest to keep people truthful though. Thin skinned you accuse me of being? You mis-characterize me as much as the packs. I am not any more TS than most people here. You just keep dishing out stuff that's more than questionable. You can't seem to defend yourself without creating more untruths. There are only a handful of people that have posted here, but I have no doubt I am speaking for many, otherwise I would not bother.

I want one...phone call incoming.