Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Question for Phil Shoemaker on handguns for Alaska

Standard 4" S&W 629-3. I've written several articles for Smokejumper magazine in the past and still help out with the editing. I had some absolutely great summers in the early 1960's and wish I could knock-off 45 years and go back. I'd still be in Montana and Idaho!

So, did Phil ever weigh in on his choices?

Phil, is out hunting this time of year....

I believe it has been written in Rifle (I hope I have this right! Can't find the issue) that for years he used a S&W .357 Mag with a 180-gr Norma ammunition with a bullet geared towards penetration MC? (I think this load was discontinued). Yeah, I know, this freaks everybody out, but he gave some excellent reasons why this works.
He has given this revolver to his daughter.

He currently uses a S&W Mountain Gun in .44 Magnum I believe at the time the article was written.

Hi Frisco Pete,
Phil wrote about these in the June 2003 Handloader. Just wondering what his current ideas on the subject might be. That's the great thing about forums, such as these, is that we can learn from folks who have been there and done it.

I've been a big fan of Mule Deer (aka John Barsness) for years and its fun to see how opinions on things change as he gains more experience, or wisdom. From the 257 Ackley being a great and wonderous thing to it's better to just have a straight up 257 Roberts. I bought a 243 for use as a deer rifle based on an article he wrote in late 70's (maybe early 80's) and he has since drifted from the 243 to the 25's (though I'm starting to sense he could drift back in love with the 243).

So I really appreciate everybody's input and look forward to Phil chiming in if he gets a chance.

Link here by Phil. good read, and leave no doubt to experience and life's lessons.

Not specific to handgun protection , or is it?

As with anthing, daily life experiences, tools used, lessons learned, and being there as witness, evolves one's thoughts, idea, opinions.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=599&magid=47

edit: typo

I don't have a new perspective, but will add my continuing assessment of what works. I started with a Colt Model 70 and 7 rounds of FMJ ball for woods use, I've moved to a .45 Auto Rim loaded revolver with 230 grain FMJ-truncated cone / "Air Force" load, faster than the Hornady load I normally use in a 1911 pistol, by some 100 fps over standard. I have taken to carrying a 10 mm Glock loaded with a 15 round magazine of Winchester Silvertips, with a Double Tap magazine loaded with 200 grain cast flat points. We have a few black bears in middle Tennessee but being a lottery winner is more likely than a bear sighting. I carry the heavy cast bullets for horse and cattle injuries. In the revolver relm, I like the .44 Magnum 629 S&W Mountain Gun. I don't practic with the 325 grain Garret cast bullets as a rule, sticking to 240 grain SWC at 1000 fps for woods carry in the Eastern US. In grizzly country I carry a .45 Colt 5 1/2" Redhawk with 325 grain LBT-FN Buffalo Bore bullets at 1313 fps. I hunt with a 500 Linebaugh 5-shot Redhawk with 435 grain WFNGC at 1289 fps. If you aren't going to carry at least a .41 magnum with soft points for black bears or similar animals, go to a smaller caliber with heavy for caliber cast bullets and demand CNS levels of accuracy. The penetration is there with hard cast or full metal jacket rounds but not the shock. A soft point in .41 Magnum or .44 Magnum is enough for black bear, mountain lion and so on. Grizzly is another story. The really fragile self-defense loads are not ideal for 300+ pound threats. I don't see the need for hyper velocity to get a light weight revolver or pistol to work efficiently in .40 + caliber, just get the weight up and the nose flat and it will work well. I like the 10mm as a general utility gun at close range. Say what you like about the ineffective pistol, I am sure 15 rounds of hard cast 200 grain bullets will make their effect known in a few seconds. The .45 ACP can be effective if a heavy weight spring set is used and dedicated +P loads are used for certain action cycling. The Ruger Redhawks seem to be ultra reliable to me. If I spent time in a remote area, I'd consider the new 4" Redhawk in .44 Mag or .45 Colt as my first choice. A good shoulder holster will easily carry a 3 pound handgun comfortably, don't get carried away about light weight as the ultimate goal. I quit carrying my .44 Magnum 629 S&W with my rifle on a grizzly hunt after the first week. I kept my rifle in reach or my revolver at my side, not both. Once that decision was made, the reason to carry light was lost, togeather they weigh 11 pounds, individually they weighed 8.5 lbs or 2.5 lbs. A handgun allows your hands to be free to work or perform other tasks. A rifle is more powerful and effective at longer ranges. Your circumstances are your best guide.

Wonderful, just wonderful quote from Phil in that link:


It applies well to some who think that a poorly-placed .416 makes up for a well-placed .270.

Placement. Bullet. Caliber.

25 cutthroat? Did you have a van load of Mexicans to feed?

Has anbody had problems with the internal lock system on a Mountain Gun? I've seen lots of stories with it happening with the 329PD.

I guess another question I would have is the use of a Glock for a last ditch personal protection/camping/backup handgun. With the Tenifer finish and polymer frame, and the high reliability, I'm starting to wonder if they wouldn't have a place, too?

The formost virtue of a handgun is that they are portable and likely to be with you at all times. Any handgun beats no gun and a determined person with one should be able to survive most situations. My choice is usually my S&W 44 Mtn Gun as it is comfortable and familiar. I also occationally carry a S&W M-13 357 with hard cast 200gr Fn bullets. i wouldn't feel unarmed with a Glock, Ruger or other good auto but as we used to say in the military - the purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle.

I read "Bear Attacks of the Century - True Stories of Courage and Survival" by Larry Mueller and Marguerite Reiss (the book S&W packs with the 500 S&W Survival Pack). This book recommends that you only carry a double-action pistol of major power when in bear country. In many of the attacks covered, the victims did not know of the bear's presence until it was on them - it could be difficult to cock a single-action when you are being shaken like a rag-doll without loosing the gun, but you might be able to simply pull the trigger.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, I participated in a bear-attack rescue in 1960 and a week later killed a grizzly that had treed me. I used a Ruger Flat-top Blackhawk SA and remember having some difficulty cocking it while hanging onto the tree and being shaken.

No fun and I never go into bear country (black or griz) unarmed

Just saw this thread.... I didn't read all posts, but have had a 329PD for a number of years. Its a bit rough with 300 hard casts... but I am now running 270 hard cast pretty warm. I zero the gun for 240 lead with 11 of Unique, and carry it with 270s in it, they hit a few inches higher. Its not nearly as bad as folks think in recoil. Though I don't shoot 270s often, I shoot the 11 of Unique a LOT in the gun and its about 1 inch or so at 25.
I wouldn't trade or sell the 329 ever, its so light that I carry it all the time or my wife carries it if I have a rifle and she is along with the camera.
IMHO unless you are carrying a heavy rifle you are going to be hard pressed to stop a bear quickly with any handgun. THat being said we hope they will bleed out(chance of a CNS hit in stress in my real world with any handgun would be luck)before killing someone... With that being said I've had some of the big pistols, and they are so bulky/heavy they used to stay in camp a lot instead of the added weight.
Hence the use of the 329... I was about to drop the coin on a mountain 629 when the 329 came out, glad I waited that long.

Jeff

Jeff, a 475 Linebaugh will put a Bear on the ground imediately in my experience.

I dropped the one on the left along with the Moose on the left with the 475 Linebaugh and hard cast. The came in on the Moose kill we were working on and he didn't care that we were thier. The 475 dropped him in gramatioc fashion

I won't argue, but I will say this, it was shot placement IMHO. I would be willing to bet one of my 300 or 270 hard cast would have done the same thing. But since I have not done it I cannot comment.
I can say if it was a choice between packing a pistol that heavy and large and my 329, I'd pack either my 329 or a 45/70 or larger rifle... I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
How fast was the charge? What distance did you end up shooting at IE how many feet? How many rounds did you get off? What was the angle and target size? Where did the bullet impact? Complete penetration I'm sure.
Jeff

btt

Someone had loooooots of time on their hands today!!!

nah,

One of they guys at work is headed to Alaska for fishing, and I offered to loan him my 686+. The "experts" here in WA state told him he "needed" to buy a 44 mag or bigger.

Just did a search after PMing Phil for his choice of handguns, and found this.

Thought it was time to kick the can again....

Odd I saw this thread tonight. Taking my dad on a road trip soon from my brother's house in Colorado up through Wyoming, Jellystone and parts of Montana.

Packing a G23 on my, but dad is concerned about bear so also taking my brother's 4-in. S&W .460 Magnum and some Corbon Hunters loaded with 350 gr. JSPs at a published 1,750 FPS.

Told dad bear attack is pretty remote chance since we're staying in hotels, but I know the .460 will prove better for defense against road-ragers in vehicles up to F-350 size; ought to penetrate from any angle.