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The war on drugs! It's working so well too. Don't you think?

The drug war is exactly the same as alcohol prohibition, and look how well that turned out. Both did nothing about the problem, but both created vast, well funded criminal enterprises. The one difference between the two was that we didn't imprison people for drinking bootleg whiskey - just the people who made and sold it.

When you can grow pot in a closet with lights, or make Meth in a suitcase, how are you going to reduce let alone end drug availability? Has restricting pseudo-ephedrine had any impact on drug availability?

If anything, drugs are more available now than they were 25 years ago.

The theory behind the criminal justice is great and most of the laws that are out there need to be on the books. Where the problem comes in is that 1) the judges are given an opinion about what the sentence is going to be. For example, the laws for possession aren't harsher than distribution, its that the judges are given leeway in what the sentences are. Add to that they users are poored than the distributors therefore can't afford representation. Next you have the problem of pleas. People who shouldn't get out of jail do because they get plead down to a lessor offense. This means there is very little fear of the criminal justice system therefore chances are higher that the person will reoffend. The list is endless, to tell you the truth, but this gives you a small idea about the problem with our criminal justice system

I recently attended a seminar put on by the Alabama Sentencing Commission. I was shocked to learn that our prison population is made up of 50% of people there serving time on drug possession cases or Felony DUI. Meanwhile, violent offenders, no matter what the sentence serve on average no more than 12 years, and often far less.

None of that makes any sense at all!

Once again, its down to plea bargaining. Its ridiculous what they do with cases. One state passed a law that if you were convicted of 3 violent felonies (such as drug distribution) you were automatically sentenced to life in prison. Guess what? After their 2nd conviction most offenders were plead down to misdemeanors and non-violent felonies!! Also, have to mention some of those that appear to be in jail for simple possession (which is considered the user category) are actually in for the more violent crime of distribution but they were plead down. I several individuals charged with Possession with intent to Distribute to be plead down to just possession, only to get out of jail and the same thing happen!

I disagree in part, places like Stateville still have all the land and shops, they now lay fallow. Also note in my post that those days the prison PAID FOR ITSELF and turned a modest PROFIT. That sounds pretty cost effective to me. I also think it would still work for many first time prisoners as well as long term sentence servers that adjust and like the extra freedom and opportunity to LEARN a trade or skill as well as earn a High School diploma. Not all them thar prisoners are incorrigible, especially first time offenders of non-violent crimes and even some drug offenses.

I am also familiar with CCI here in Charlotte County, FL and yes many are beyond help, but there are some salvageable souls even in this max security prison. I am in there on occasion with my St. Vincent de Paul ministry and the actors can't snow me, I spent too many years on the street to fall for the BS lines some use.

True enough that individual states differ in their resources, but that as well as chain gangs was the norm in the "old days" and the recidivism rates were much lower than they are today. Prisons today seem to be a graduate school for criminal behavior these days and havens for gang bangers & wannabe's that become gang bangers BECAUSE they have way too much unsupervised time on their hands IMHO.

I am not advocating chain gangs, but structured education in basic living skills and work skills will go a long way in helping many, and I also believe reducing the recidivism rates as well. There has been and always will be those that will return time after time for their anti-social behavior, many will not if given a start in the right direction before they T-totally F up their life.

That is just my .02 cents worth from the perspective of 67 years of life and some 49 or so of those aware of what goes on in the dark side of life. Yep, 49, I was a Military Policeman at 18 working the stockade max security section then moved on to civilian life as a Deputy Sheriff for the next 26 and am still associated with the Sheriff's Department I retired from through my Daughter and many friends still working there although most are now retired.

I am wondering of you are thinking of the Armed Career Criminal Act. 3 felonies of any kind, get caught with a gun and it's 15 years to life, no parole, no pleas bargain. That's a Federal statute.

Part of the problem is the truth in sentencing laws. They set specific sentences regardless. Ig a judge departs from the sentencing guidelines it's a big deal and requires reasons for doing so.

I thought that was what Judges were for - to set sentences based on the particular facts of the case. Now we have a zero tolerance, one size fits all mentality - at least with regard to drugs

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Those education projects are costly as are the farms & industries in start up costs. It's simply easier and cheaper to lock them up for 23 hours of the day, it's a sad fact of life, but it's the fact of life.

Are you willing to increase your state sales tax or other tax, to pay for new prisons and new prison systems? Most people are not willing to increase taxes to pay for, what many consider "feel good programs".

Not to be ugly, you mention your age at 67, i know counties in this state that the blue hairs are pissing & whining, as to why they have to support a school system, when they don't even have any kids in the schools. It's rough to get increased spending on education for children, let alone prisoners in state facilities.

I am sorry to say that the past is gone and it's not coming back. I know i don't have an answer and i know that we're not going to revolve back to the way it was in the 40's,50's, 60's. Most first time offenders unless it's very serious, do there time in either county jails or minimum security systems.

Many do their time in the county jails as the state pays the county to keep them, due to not having enough bed space in a state facility, it's cheaper for the state and the counties love the money, since it's more then what the county needs to house the prisoner, they see it as a profit.

It's stupid that we're locking people up for things like this but it plays to the fears of the soccer moms who've been convinced that all druggies are targeting their children and that every guy who's had two beers is going to run into their suburban. I'm far from a liberal, but it's out of control the rate at which we lock up people in this country. We even threw Martha Stewart in jail, for Christ's sake! For a nation of supposedly "free" people we sure do have a lot of laws aimed at controlling every facet of people's lives. The statistics speak for themselves, we're infatuated with throwing people in jail for the most trivial "crimes" and the politicians eat it up because they can claim they were tough on crime again. We're all about law and order and damn the consequences. Heck, look at this thread, half of the folks on here are crying about us not locking enough people up despite the fact that we jail far more than any other nation out there.

The problem with locking up non violent offenders is that you usually take a person who's a productive member of society and instantly turn him into a welfare case. If the guy spends a year in jail for a DUI then he may be the best computer programmer in the world but that prison record is going to show up on any employment background check and he's now unemployable. You've taken a guy who had a productive career and ruined his life, now the government's got to support him and he's lucky if he doesn't turn into a real crook because it's the only way left. If he wasn't a crook when he went into prison it's pretty much guaranteed he will be when he gets out.

Everybody's pet peeves shouldn't be the basis for a new law. We criminalize too much. We've got too many laws on the books now and as mentioned before no one could possibly make it through a day without breaking several of them. There's something wrong with that and it needs to be corrected, but it won't as long as some pandering politician can get the vote of the terrified masses by promising to get "tough on crime" by throwing some pothead into prison or busting some harmless middle age guy for DUI. Drunks and potheads are much safer for the politicians and police to screw with than real criminals. It makes their arrest statistics look good without doing a damn thing to reduce real crime.

Not sure how bright you are, but you don't communicate well in this medium.

So, obtainging a plea without a trial is a bad thing?



Uh, many states have "habitual offender sentencing laws". Drug distribution, in no way, is a "violent felony".



You got any proof at all of that?



No, if you're arrested for distribution, that's what you're in jail for. Again "distribution" isn't a "violent felony".



That's generally because they were over charged to begin with, or they can't prove the "intent". Nice to write such laws, much more difficult to prove that "possessor A" was just in possession, but "possessor B" had intent to distribute when there's no other facts other they they each possessed drugs.

I agree that the start up is expensive, but the only reason they were closed down in the first place was the liberal bleeding hearts of the mid sixties till present think it is "unfair" to "Make" these people do something constructive. They were and still are wrong, PERIOD. And I am oh so aware that we won't go back to the systems of 50-60 years ago, it is too late now and going back would not all be good. Yep if we could cherry pick that that was good and leave all that was bad, you betcha. All was not rosy then either, but lots of stuff WAS better. My only contention is it DID work and COULD work again if it could be done. I am not a blue hair BTW, I am still a redneck at heart and have never bitched about school taxes except what they do with them, and I PAID for my kids education in Parochial school and still help pay for all three of my grandsons. My choice, but still pay my property tax bill without protest every year. They do know my name at school board meetings as well! I have voted for tax increases for education programs and upgraded schools and just recently voted for a tax to support a new 48.7 million upgrade to our 7 year old and already overcrowded County jail. Unfortunately many of the retired "damnyankees" that have moved here vote against that stuff, instead voting for more municipal golf courses and parks. It is all a matter of priorities, theirs and the few like me.

But anyway, thank you for your considered responses and kindness to a "Dinosaur".

Have a great one Sir.

Hey Jim.....Nearly everyone knows our job better than us who actually do it. I just love stories that begin with, Well, I got this friend who...........or, I know this guy who........ Of course, they never set foot in the courtroom or are aware of the actual facts other than what they've been told by someone!

They should be in the cop's seat at a trial a few times. That would be a VERY educational experience indeed!

No doubt, Terry!!

Many of the inmates of the US penal system are many time recidivists they are not able to function on the outside, most have beeen wards of the state since adolecence. They are not Slaves they get paid for any work they do they also get free room and board and free medical care. The food they get is strictly monotored for nutritional value. It ain't like they get a bowl of rice once a day. I thend to agree that if anything they get to many privledges TV's heck a lot get law degrees while inside. Or other educational assets. But many still get out and are being indited for somthing with in six months. Some even sooner. I have talked to many ex cons who told me they felt more secure inside than outside.

I never seen many druggies (as in potheads) until I went to college. Most of them aren't illiterate, unexperienced, and unemployable--they are your lawyers, your dentists, or fixing your computers now--well a few of them are in jail to I suppose.

Couldn't agree more........see my earlier comment about "cruel & unusual punishment".

MM

Inevitably someone will post, that everyone they knew that used drugs, is now a brain surgeon, or a nuclear physicist, or the above lawyer, dentist etc., so therefore drugs must be a benefit. In fact drugs probably helped them become the successful people they are today!

Why don't we just encourage EVERYONE to use drugs, as they are benign and probably a very positive choice?

Hey, all drugs should be perfectly legal and even better free, because the war on drugs is lost!

Too often I hear the same rhetoric in schools today about not only drugs, but honesty. The current ethical standards, or, in keeping with this thread, let's call it the "war on dishonesty" is lost, so just accept the fact that everyone cheats, everyone lies, everyone steals at some level, so throw out all that krap about integrity.

I really fear for a world with ever lowering standards, where honor, principles, keeping promises, self discipline of body and mind, and squarely facing the consequences of your actions will be forever lost like the war on drugs.