Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Is Paco on safe .358 Winchester ground here?

I posted somewhere that I have seen Internet stuff making claims that the .358 can safely be made into a real thumper.... thoughts on what Paco wrote here? Also I have a mold that drops 275 grain bullets... Paco suggests 13.5 grains Red Dot with a 200 grain cast bullet. Has anyone here worked up a reduced load with a heaver .358 cast bullet?
Thanks


WINCHESTER�S SLEEPER..358 WCF..

by Paco

Seven years after I returned to the U.S. from 2 plus years in Africa the itch for the all around rifle I had over there got really bad. It was an old military Mauser converted from 9.3X57mm to a 62mm case. Basically like our 35 Whelen.

In 1968 reamers for the 9.3 were none existent, dies, bullets and such expensive, and the 35 Whelen reamers were hard to find and expensive to buy...at least for me at the time. But the gunsmith that was going to build my first custom rifle assured me the 358 Winchester would do it all. I figured it would be much like the original chambering in my African all around rifle, the 9.3X57...I had that opened to the 62 mm case only because where I was 30-06 brass was plentiful and the 57mm brass was not.

Using a commercial Mauser action, I had a 23 inch .358 barrel with a 1 in 10 twist mounted with a medium weight and taper....a good hunk of straight grain American walnut cut in a classic stock shape with a 13 and � inch length of pull. And it stayed a .358 Win until I ran into a BSA 24 inch rifle a few years later in .358 so I rechambered the custom rifle to 35 Whelen.

It might sound like at this point I had too much of the same thing a 358 Win and a 35 Whelen...but not really. The least I can say about 35 Whelen is that it is actually one of the finest all around cartridges to be developed. It�s basically in the class of medium heavy calibers like 338/06 and the 375/06. And the three of those are in a class, when compared to the African calibers in Taylor�s classic book...AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, that will take 95% of African game and 99% of everything in the North and South Americas.

Taylor talks of the 350 Rigby Magnum...which is a 60 grain cartridge case...like the Whelen...(pgs 148/150) and states on pg 150 that in the open the 350 Rigby mag will take the dangerous game of Africa. The 350 Rigby Mag and the Whelen are performance twins. With today�s powders and bullets the Whelen in 358...or338 and 375...is far above the African calibers of Taylor�s time.....

It is easy to say that the .358 Win on the 308 case, is 15% below the Whelen...in power potential. But that doesn�t really describe the assets of this neat cartridge. If you want to build a very powerful and compact rifle the .358 should be considered. The Browning leveraction .358 proves this....those that have one know. If I didn�t have a number of 35 caliber rifles...and had the itch to build one it would run along these lines....a short bolt action, a straight taper stiff medium 20 inch barrel and a synthetic stock with a 50mm 6 power scope. Outside of game like the Big Bears of the North, elephant, cape buff, and such, I could hunt the world with it.

I know that just about every animal on earth, has fallen to the big bore handguns of today...so a rifle of the power potential of the 358 Win should easily take anything...and that�s true to a point. But the big bore handguns or even the 358 Winchester heavy loaded are not what I want if a cape buff decides he thinks I would make a good component of a mud hole. Or a angry brown bear thinks eliminating me will cure his pain in life. I�m not saying the 358 Win won�t take such game I just want to put it into real perspective.

Now saying all that, here is where I get into trouble. The Speer number 13 reloading manual shows the 180 grain bullet from a 30-06 at 2756 fps as the top load and the 358 Winchester 180 grain bullet at 2732 fps as the top load. Both easily give 3000 pounds of muzzle energy with many loads. But the 358 will do it with less powder, shorter actions, shorter brass, and shorter barrels than the 30-06. Is the 358 better than the 30-06? Are apples better than oranges? That�s a matter of personal taste, not science....but I think so. Remember of course, I am sold out to the 35 caliber...and that colors my thinking.

In my 358 notes I show a load of 54.5 grains of H335 under the Speer 180 grain 35-Flat SP gives over 2850 fps! That is a top load...and it gives nearly 3250 pounds of punch. Using 54 grains of 748...and a 220 grain round soft nose bullet gives 2510 fps and over 3000 lbs of muzzle energy... suddenly gives you have a moose and big bear load that is exceptionally effective. Pushing the 250 grain Speer Grand Slam at 2400 fps with 44 grains of AA2015 gives a killing potential that is awesome on large game in the multi thousand pound class. And Barnes makes a .358/250 grain solid for those biggies that have very hard heads. And yes these are 358 Winchester loads...not the Whelen or the 35 Remington Magnum loads. All from my 23 inch barrel.

Lyman�s 3589, is the original mold number...not sure what it is today, probably something like 358009. But it is a round nose at around 280 grains in weight. I cast these bullets from magnum shotgun shot with 5% tin added...cast hot and dropped directly into water.

The ones I�m going to use for hunting I size and lube...then place them standing in water up to just above the shoulder and run the butane torch over the noses ...doesn�t take much...at the first sign of color change take the flame off...Let them cool slowly and the temper in the noses is gone for good expansion ...yet the body is hard and will take high pressure and velocity without fouling....pushing these from the 358 Winchester cartridge at 2400 fps is a snap with H335, AA 2015, or 3031...accuracy is very fine. Muzzle energy is almost 3600 lbs....a 30-06 has to work very hard to get even close to that kind of power.

One of the great loads from the 358 is to take the Remington 150 grain spire point bullet...over 52 grains of ReL#15 and 3100 fps...(my..my we are in 270 Win country)...WHY do they call this a woods caliber???? With my 3+ inch zero at 100 yards ...by actually shooting it is still 2.4 inches high at 200 yards...1.5 inches down at 300 yards and a little over a foot at 400 yards.....woods round my butt! At the muzzle this bullet carries 3000 lbs of energy and at 400 yards it still has almost a 1300 lbs of punch and at 500 yards still near 1000 lbs. As I said it is versatile, powerful, and can be a light rifle for 95% of the game of the world.....what else could we ask for. Jim Taylor and I once stood on a very high foothill shooting over to the next very high foothill with my 356 Winchester 94 Big Bore leveraction...loaded with my special 358 loads.....Jim was amazed that he was able to hit smallish rocks with ease...well past 500 yards. Why is this round such a sleeper?????

And the great 358 Winchester cartridge and chambering is a real sleeper. It was written up in all the gunzines from 1955 thru the 1960s...but it was constantly referred to as a �bush caliber� or a �woods caliber�...stating the effective range was around 200 yards on the outside. Who writes this crapola?

The same thing happened to the 307 and 356 Winchester cartridges and chamberings, in the 94 Big Bore Levergun...one of the strongest mind sets in the gunzine writing business seems to be...leveractions = brush guns!!!! Leverguns are of limited power and range...leverguns can kill really big game like moose and the big bears only at very limited distance.....!!!!

One of the great African hunters was John �Pondoro� Taylor. In his book AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES in a chart section after pg.196 John rates the velocities and muzzle energy/and energy of bullets out to 300 yards...on each of the African calibers from the 256 thru the 600. In the chart he rates the 235 grain 375 H&H bullet at 2800 fps and it�s 270 grain bullet 2650 fps. These are velocities for the most part of British ammo loaded with cordite and it was temperature sensitive, so it was loaded down for African hunting by the British ammo makers....but these are the loads from 1913 to the 1950s that dropped elephants and such by the thousands.

John Taylor calls the 375 the greatest all around rifle cartridge for African hunting of game, up to the size of elephant, rhino, hippo, cape buffalo and many other very large, and hard to stop animals. And great it is.....and on pg.146 thru 150 in his book, he talks about the very well known cartridge in Africa but not well known in the U.S. The 350 Rigby Magnum. Is this some belted banger on the H&H case? No it was basically a 35 Whelen of the times. Pushing a 225 grain bullet at 2600 fps.... John states very clearly that the 350 Rigby magnum will do what the 375 H&H will do on big game. It�s just that John wanted the solid 270 grain bullet weight of the 375 in the thick brush when he was after elephant. And he wished that Rigby would come out with a heavier bullet for 350 R/Mag. (Don�t confuse this mag labeled round with the smaller 350 Rigby..nonMag) What�s all this got to do with the 358 Winchester round?

We can with modern powder and bullets get to within 15% of the British loaded 375 H&H...and get right beside the 350 Rigby Mag with today�s 358 reloaded Winchester cartridge. I have pushed the 220 grain 358 Speer bullets over 2500 fps(50 grs A2520 @ 54,000C) and the Barnes 250 grain solid over 2400 fps (49 grs A2520 @ 55,500C). Would I shoot an elephant with a suitably loaded 358 bolt action? I would rather use a 35 Whelen with the Barnes 250 grain solid at near 2700 fps....but if the .358 Win was all I had, and the shot was decent..not only would I...but I have. With handloads in the 9.3 x 62mm when I was in Africa in the 1950s. Loads that put the 9.3 in the same killing levels as the old 35 Whelen, 350 Rigby Magnum, and the British loaded (cordite) 375 H&H.

Lets see ............ the gun writers tell us the 358 is a brush cartridge. Well, when it is loaded with commercial ammo at warm 35 Remington level velocities....it might be. So now, I know some will go to their reloading manuals and say �wait Paco�...the best loads I can find with the 250 grain Barnes bullet from the Barnes book out of the 350 Remington magnum is only 2500+ fps!!!...how can the smaller 358 Win do 2400+ fps?

It�s a lesson in pressure again...most reloading manuals keep the 358 at about 47,000 to 50,000 CUP on the very top end...but usually below even that. The pressure in the 375 H&H and other belted mags can run as high as 57,000 to 60,000 psi. Do you think the actions on the belted magnum bolt rifles like Winchester Mod.70 or Remington�s 700 or Ruger�s 77, are any less strong than their non belted bolt actions? All made from the same steel, same manufacturing processes, etc.....

Do you think the brass of the 358 Winchester case is less strong than the brass of a 7mm Remington mag for example. The belted mag cartridges may be thicker in some places like the base...but it is the same kind of brass and since science tells us when all else is equal, the smaller cylinder is the stronger cylinder...the 358 case makes up for the added thickness of the larger belted mags. I have 358 Winchester brass that has gone thru 40+ loadings and is still going strong...and my favorite load with the Speer 180 grain FlatSP...pushes 55,000 psi and sends that fine bullet over 2800 fps. The Speer manual #13 gives a load of 52 grs of H335 and a load of 45 grs of ReL#7 that pushes it well over 2700 fps. Somebody want to check the velocities for the 30-06/180 gr bullet? Has that ever been called short range?

My Lyman mold 3589 drops a 290+ grain cast bullet with a gas check...with ApacheBlu lube and ReL#7 or A2520 I push that over 2350 fps, giving more than 3550 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. The 250 grain solid at 2400+ fps gives 3200 ft.lbs of energy....all light for elephant in the thick stuff...but they are not brush loads..nor is the 358 Winchester a brush/woods cartridge. Now these are heavy loads. I don�t use them on deer or black bear or sumsuch...but the power and potential is there if needed.

I wrote in my first book on leverguns that using a Remington 150 grain spire point .358 bullet (developed for the 350 Remington Mag round) in the 356 case from the 356 Winchester Big Bore I could get an 8 to 10 inch actual drop at 400 yards. The Winchester rep at the time, nearly called me a liar...but looking at my face...I guess he thought better of it....saying something else like ..."I�d really have to see that..." Something to smooth out his near faux pa.

But pushing that 150 grainer at over 3000 fps and setting the scope at five inches high at 100 yards will do it (five inches @100 set on the bottom post of my duplex scope site). I set my guns usually at 2� to three inches high at 100...Even at 3 inches @100 yrds...the drop is around 15 inches at 400 yards....actual firing not computer generated. But just to show the 356 was not a hyper �brush gun� as the gunzines were spouting...I ran those tests at five inches @100yrds. Didn�t do much good, the round still died and so has the 358 Win.

I don�t see much difference between the 358 and the 356 WinBB rounds when handloaded to 55,000psi or so. The expansion ratio for a 35 caliber makes the 20 inch Winchester 94BB barrel very effective and with minimal fps loss in comparison to the 308 barrel bore.....I get the same jazz about my velocities in the 356/358 when folks compare to the listed loads for the 350 Rem mag.

That�s the short mag round they developed for the 18 inch barreled rifle Remington produced, called the mod.600...then later the model 660 with a plastic rib. Those 350 Rem/Mag loads were also kept at the 47,000 to 50,000 cup levels because the rifle was very small. But you chamber a 350 Rem Mag in a modern bolt action like the fine Ruger mod.77 (Ruger made a limited run of these) and load it to it�s full potential....and you can within 3 to 5% of today�s fine 375 H&H ballistics with ease. That�s a 375 H&H 235 grain bullet at 2950 fps from a 24 inch barrel, using 85 grains of 380...or 2950 fps with 80 grains of ReL#15....But the well chambered 350 Rem/Mag from a 24 inch barrel will push the 220 grain 358 slugs over 2900 fps. My 35 Whelen Imp...will also do about the same.....so we realize the 358 isn�t the only under loaded round.

Because of it�s small size, the 358 Winchester makes for one fine cast bullet cartridge....13.5 grains of Red Dot, Green Dot, PB, Unique, and SR 7625 will give from 1350 to 1450fps with a 200 grain bullet. I like the 358430 Lyman round nose at 195+ grains for any small eating animal that I don�t want to tear up...this is basically a medium 357 magnum handgun level load. Lyman makes a tapered 200 grain plus bullet, numbered 358315 that I never could get good accuracy with at any decent velocity....it looks like a rifle bullet, but doesn�t act like one for me.

The all time great cast .358 bullet for me in rifles is the 3589 Lyman (it�s now numbered 358009) it is a listed 280 grain very blunt roundnose. It drops at 290+ grains from my mold and at 2350fps gives well over 3500 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy (51 grs A2520). Someone asked if I would use cast bullets on large thick skinned game animals. Been there, as so many others have. I used cast bullets in the 9.3 Mauser much more than jacketed, in Africa. Today�s handgun hunters have taken just about everything Africa has to offer, with cast bullets. Cast bullets were used first on everything...man, animals, in wars, hunting, everything....jacketed bullet use didn�t become common until we were well into the 20 century.

Heavy cast bullets can be pushed as fast, or nearly as fast as heavy jacketed bullets. If they are cast fairly hard and the noses after sizing and lubing are de- tempered they make exceptionally good hunting bullets. The 358 caliber has a plethora of bullet weights and shapes to choose from. And of course the commercial casters offer a large selection of types and weights and designs to make the most picky shooter happy.

The latest Lyman chart shows 13 different 358 designs from 115 grs to 280 grains....RCBS shows 9 from 148 grs to 200 grs....CBE shows 40 in their product book from 80 grs to 300+grs. CBE made a special 358 bullet up for me that was in the Keith short nose design at 335 grs. The mold is gorgeous, made from pure brass...two cavity...drops perfect bullets. This company is a real find...they are in New South Wales, but don�t let that bother you their turn around order time is shorter than some American companies. (CBE P.O.BOX 269 MENAI CENTRAL N.S.W. 2234 tell�em Paco sent you). You should at least send for their catalog if you are a caster......And of course NEI has as many as CBE....

If you can�t find your perfect bullet weight and design...NEI will still cut a cherry and produce a mold to your own design...I have a few of those. The heaviest 35 caliber mold I have is a custom Hock 350 grainer of my design from back in the 1980s. Built especially for my 35 Whelen, rarely does this bullet stay inside any animal harvested with it. It and the CBE 335 grainer are really too long for the 358 Winchester....taking up too much powder space inside the cartridge case. But even at 1600 to 1800 fps and 2500 ft.lbs from the 358 Winchester round they are still fairly powerful and fun to shoot.

I cast them medium soft in the body for this velocity, and completely soft in the noses...they will roll a coyote every time. They will make steaks and chops and roasts out of big deer, black bear and elk...and they will punch completely thru a 1000+ lb feral bull with a side shot thru the ribs. And because they are so long in body, their trajectory isn�t as bad at these low velocities, as I first thought they would be.

But the 358 Winchester cries for the 250 gr to 300 grs bullets in jacketed or cast for heavy game and 180 to 220 grs for the medium game...the 150 to 165 grs for small stuff. And with proper reloading it is a far better and much more powerful and longer range cartridge than it has been given credit for.....try it, I think you will like it.

Well ... you can get any claimed velocity you like if you push your brass and pressures hard enough. Whether its prudent to do so is another thing.

Paco claims 2400fps from a 250gr ... how is that 'better' than at a milder 2250fps? Placed equally, they'll both work.

A 310gr Woodleigh should theoretically push 2000fps (QL data) from a 358Win, but wont stabilise in a 1:14" twisted barrel. One day I'll find the time to order a mould from CBE and make myself some 275gr paper-patched projectiles for my 35's. I think 2150fps should be achievable and would make a sledgehammer of a load upto 200yards.
Cheers...
Con

Paco Kelly is on the far edge of reality. In fact he may well be getting away with what he does. Bob Hagel did.

Without looking back I recall he got a 180 up over 2800 fps from the .358 Win. In fact I saw even higher velocities on the Oehler out of my .358 while 'working up' a load. And I wonder why my old 99F has headspace now and wants brass made from the 30-06!

Some guys zoom around corners at the edge of tire adhesion and do all sorts of things. It seems to be part of our world. To each his own.

My question would be - How much can you really compress powder ? My #13 Speer manual shows a 220gr FN at 52grs compressed with 748. I use H335 with the 180gr FN at max load at 52grs at 2732. He states 54.5 of this powder. Where is reality at with this load ? I don't want to blow my press apart. Nice article but he needs to come back to earth.

Ken

Hmm, if it sounds to good to be true..... anyway I've also read that Mule Deer is doing and article for handloader that includes pressure testing with both the .338 and .358 loads. Really looking forward to that one.

"I have seen Internet stuff making claims that the .358 can safely be made into a real thumper "


IT is! if youve got doubts load up the combo below and go shoot a few large game animals and see for yourself..

OK, , granted its my opinion, here, but my first question after reading thru all that......whats gained over use of a 250 speer bullet loaded over 44-45 grains of IMR4064 in a 358 win with a fed 215 primer?
pushing a bullet faster doesn,t necessarily make it a better killer,
no doubt you can push lighter bullets faster and heavier bullets to good velocities, but whats GAINED?
the 250 speer is designed to open/expand at almost the ideal rate for the 2300-2350 muzzle velocity you get from the 20"-22" carbines the 358win is usually built for and it does a fine job on both ELK and DEER and BLACK BEAR out to at least 300 plus yards.
the longer I hunt the more impressed Ive become with the 358 win and 35 whelen, but much of the effectiveness is lost if you don,t load those 250 speers or similar but slower expanding 250 hornady bullets, if you wanted more penetration, but the 250 speer already does a good job busting ELK so I don,t see the need for increased penetration. besides I think most guys would be far better off concentrating on getting in to under 350 yards before firing at game, than worring about sellecting a caliber that reaches out effectively to 500 yards plus. certainly the average precice shot placement tends to be better from the closer shots, as ALWAYS if YOU place the shot correctly in the arteries over the heart,or perhaps bust both shoulders, youll get the desired results



http://www.theidahosportsman.com/bear%20anatomy.pdf

This is the article that pushed me to get a .35 Whelen. I really enjoy this rifle. I had a chamber cast made and sent it off to mountain molds to help design a mold to make heavy slugs for it. They come out at 275 grains with the wheel weights alloy I have.
I have gotten some very accurate loads using Red Dot powder from my gun but I never found a cross reference to the Bullseye load that Paco claimed pushed his 280 slug at 1000 fps that was "no louder than a child's cap gun." If Bullseye would be safe and have less muzzle blast that the Red Dot load produces, I love to try it. Keeping both eyes and all of my fingers is a higher priority though....


35 WHELEN...By Paco Kelly
TOP HUNTING CARTRIDGE of the 20TH CENTURY
The 35 Whelen has been a very good cartridge for me. But it didn�t start with the happy chance of getting a rifle in that chambering...my first Whelen was built in 1968 in Virginia...but it all started for me, in Africa ten years before that.
I had purchased in North Africa, a Mauser 9.3X57mm built in the 1930s, but getting ammo even in 1958 was difficult. And when I could find it, it was expensive. So I had the rifle rechambered to 9.3 X 62mm which was popular, but again ammo was expensive and limited. But my madness wasn�t completely in full swing...trading one hard to find cartridge for another...I planned to use 30-06 cases and reload....
The arab gunsmith that rechambered the rifle made me a mold that had cavities on each end...it was round and had two independent sprue plates...one cavity was 280 grains with a rounded flat nose...the other was 200 grains with a flat nose. Also he made a small die that opened the 30-06 necks just tight enough to seat the cast bullets...a seating die and a sizing die also. I hardly used the sizing die, because I used military ammo. I would pull the military ball, remove the powder...(looked like IMR 4198 in those days) open the neck, pour the powder back in and seat the cast bullet..usually the 280 grainer. I hunted all over Africa with this rifle and load......I harvested little 40 lb Tommies to one very large Hippo...and everything in between. I figure my velocity was around 2300+ fps.
I even killed a nasty female elephant that was making mud holes out of natives, I used a solid 280 grain bullet over the same load. The bullet was steel jacketed with a rounded blunt nose.....I shot her at 10 yards low between the eyes. She stood long enough after being hit, to where I was about to shoot her again when she just slumped down on her belly and died.....the village she had been raiding had a week long feeding party on her....
I always wondered about that shot. She didn�t move, hit right where I aimed...saw the dust come off her head...thought she would fold or charge..but she just stood there...then down. Interesting, considering she had been such an aggressive @#%$ to start with. I have shot elephants with a 375 H&H, ammo loaded for Africa, with the same weight bullet...probably around 2400 to 2500 fps and got very different reactions...certainly the difference in .366 caliber and .375 caliber made little difference in killing power...and a few hundred fps more sure didn�t make much either. I guess I was just lucky the day I brained her....
I was also fortunate to be on two culling operations in two years in Africa. They were designed to not only get a meat supply for a number of native villages but to also stop the herds from eating the villages crops. I averaged more than 30 animals a day on the first operation...and that much, or a little more on the second...that kind of sustained shooting with one rifle builds confidence.....
Jumping to Virginia 10 years later...I bought a commercial Mauser action and wanted to build a 35 Whelen on it. The rifle smith didn�t have a 35 Whelen reamer so we chambered it to 358 Winchester to begin with. I certainly learned to respect that cartridge. In a bolt action rifle the 358 is a fine round. But my heart wanted a 35 Whelen...mainly because it is so close to the 9.3X62 I had in Africa...
Finally I bought a Whelen reamer and opened the chamber...I have never been sorry. I used it in that chambering for almost 30 years...then last year I ran a Brown-Whelen Improved reamer into my chamber....and started working with that. The whole idea was to test all the articles I�ve read about the Imp chambers not giving that much better velocities than the standard chambers...well I get up to 300 fps more with some loads...and when you start pushing Lyman�s fine 280/290 grain cast round nose over 2600 fps...that�s belted magnum country. Take a look at your reloading books and see how many cartridges give over 4300 ft.lbs of muzzle energy....you will find it interesting...
Certainly the history of this fine round developed in the early 1930s and named in honor of the late great rifleman Townsend Whelen...has been document before very well. Ken Water�s in his article on the round did an excellent job and it can be found in his Pet Loads articles collected into book form and sold by Wolfe Publications (Handloader and Rifle magazines).
Close friend John Taffin is having a Winchester 1895 leveraction refitted with a 35 Whelen barrel....and that should be an outstanding combination. Especially since the box magazine of the 95 can take spitzer shaped bullets...back in the 1930s and 40s a number of the older 95s in 30-03 and 30-06 were rebored and rechambered to the Whelen round....and they turned out to be thumpers of large game to the first order. Though I found in shooting a friend�s �95 Whelen conversion in 1978, it �kicked some�, to be british about it....he didn�t change the steel butt plate. And it does need a good recoil pad.
In the stock of my Whelen bolt gun I have two decelerators installed, and a good thick recoil pad. It�s now a ***** cat in recoil with the heaviest of loads. I have no need to prove my manhood or some such taking a lot of recoil...so I tame all heavy rifles as much as possible. And believe me when you start pushing a 280/290 grain bullet at over 2600 fps...it recoils!
My barrel is 23 inches long, it tapers from a good inch down to .70 at the muzzle. The wood in the stock is dense walnut with very straight grain, the action has been glass bedded...and it has both iron sights and scope blocks. Right now it has a Tasco variable that goes to 9 power....
I like having iron sights on my rifles if at all possible. You never know when on a hunting trip your scope goes south...so the irons will keep you in the game. And since I have killed antelope with the iron sights...at fairly long ranges...I�m confident in using them. I have found that for my eyes express sights work exceptionally well. Many find just the opposite..I even like them on handguns.
I�m sure I saw very few telescopes on a rifle in Africa in the late 1950s...but again that was 40 years ago. I had a small sniper scope that came with my 9.3 Mauser. It was around three power and German military all the way. Out of the second World War I�m sure. It had a course post and a number of cross lines marked in single digits that I�m also sure meant 1 for 100 meters, 2 for 200 meters and so on out 600 meters. I used it only on rare occasions....
A good 30-06 will push a 180 grain jacketed hunting bullet to 2800 fps. And that is a fine load...you could hunt the world with it. 61.5 grains of A2520 and a 180 grain .358 caliber bullet from my Whelen will easily break 3050 fps...I can push the Remington 150 grain spire point made for the 350 Rem/Mag to well over 3200 fps. This is not slamming the 30-06...it is and most likely will always be one of the top premier cartridges of the 20th century. It�s just showing that the Whelen is in a much different ballistic class, made for much heavier game, even though it uses the same cartridge case.
Elmer Keith for example long before the powders we have today that up the velocities of the Whelen substantially, recommended the cartridge for the heaviest of America�s game....he even spoke of guiding folks that took brown and big grizzles with it...as well as moose. He also said he and his father used it on elk for many years...
I have a precious few Nosler 275 grain jacketed round nose bullets left. I save them for big game....moose and up. When I bought them 20 plus years ago at 13 dollars a box for fifty I thought the price outrageous...Now!!!! I wish I had bought ten boxes....oh well. My load for them is simple at 52 grains of the wonderful H335 and 2450 + fps. Too bad I can�t find a few solids of that weight or near it...they would do everything the vaulted 375 H&H can do...
Midway put out for sale a run of R-P nickel plated (electroless I�m sure) 35 Whelen cases. I bought 100 and have been trying to wear them out since I got them back around three years ago...still working on them...and now some are formed to the improved version and still going strong....I have used old military match 30-06 ammo cases since I have had the rifle...they seem to last forever....and the match cases don�t have the crimped primers the standard military cases have. Of course finding them today is getting difficult because of the 308's eclipse of the 06. But if you run into some at a gun show or some where, don�t be afraid to buy them.
I load my Whelen�s hunting loads to 50,000 to 55,000 psi...naturally I have many reduced and medium loads. But if I am going for the big ones or the long shots I load to it�s potential. So if you have a 35 Whelen or are building one be sure the action is strong enough for the full loads I mention here. Many die manufacturers make an expanding die that will open 30-06 brass with one pass...then load and fire. It�s worth the few dollars extra when ordering Whelen reloading dies....sometimes it�s just and insert that goes in the sizing/decapping die...what ever you get it pays for itself in the long run.
The old IMR powders on the slow side like 4350 and 4831 with the heavy slugs from 275 up thru 300 plus grains were good yesteryear...and are still good today...but the whole field of ball powders has changed all that. Today velocities can be reached that were attainable only with over pressure loads just a decade or so ago....
The best all around powder I have found in the Whelen...and really in the 358 Winchester as well as the 356 Win/levergun round is H335. It doesn�t always give the highest velocities but it sure gives some of the highest with excellent accuracy with just about any bullet weight with high end loads.....one of the velocity champs with bullets up to 200 grains is A2520...pushing a 180 grain bullet at the velocities near 3000 fps. And it will push the 200 grain bullet very close behind it. And with 57 grains in the standard case under the jacketed 250 grain bullets we are talking 2500 fps plus. And 53 grains under my 275 grainer will push them as I said 2450 fps +.
Remington�s 150 grain spire point is just the berries for the Whelen. In actual tests with this bullet loaded to 3200 fps and a 3 inch high at 100 yards...it is down 14 inches at 350 yards....66 grains of the old time 3031 is still hard to beat in the standard case....just as 57 grains of ReLoader #7 under the 150 spire point is today. The 3031 load will go close to 3200 fps and the Reloader will cut 3250 fps and that�s in a 23 inch barrel. And this bullet is a large game bullet made for the old 350 Rem/Magnum so it�s not some explosive varmint slug that will ruin a lot of meat. I have taken many deer with it...it is a lightning strike on animals up to 200 lbs.
My old notes from 1971 show that I had a gonga load with IMR 4198..45 grains under a 250 grain hard cast Lyman round nose gave 2800 fps! I have a very special built Hoch mold. It was built 20 years ago to my design and drops a 325 grain hard cast bullet...340 in soft lead. With 57 grains of WW760 it gets very near 2200 fps...and I have never had one stay inside an animal all the way up to very large feral cattle well over a ton in weight. It�s a flat tipped round nose, bore riding and gas checked....It just fits my box magazine when loaded correctly, it is the heaviest bullet I have ever used from a 35 caliber rifle.
The afore mentioned Lyman 3589 280/290 grain bullet is my favorite. I can cast it soft...but water tempered...gas checked and Apache Blu lubed, at 1500 fps it is fun yet deadly on small game. Also loaded to around 1000 fps with 8 grains of Bullseye and a small wisp of Dacron holding the powder to the primer...I have take things like Javelina, large eating birds like turkey, and all kinds of varmints at close range.
I was brush hunting Javelina in 1979 when I spotted a mule deer about fifty yards from me. This is a quiet load...about like a kids cap gun. I shot him in the heart. He leaped up, kicked into his chest, and ran in a dead run for about 100 plus yards and fell down in a cloud of dust. Dead when I got to him. The Lyman soft cast bullet was against a low rib on the opposite side..it had mushed the heart...not the ideal deer load...but in a pinch with a dead on shot, it does the business.
When I had this rifle built I made sure it had deep and wide rifling for cast bullets. It shoots all manner of 357 bullets...cast and jacketed. I once had a 173 grain cast Keith bullet loaded to way over 2000 fps. Shot a little rabbit in the head at about 25 yards. It seemed like a long instant after the shot...there was a plopping sound. It was the top of the rabbit�s head, forehead up and the two ears hitting the ground after it had gone straight up....that�s all that was left except for tufts of fur blowing helter skelter....
I have taken deer and black bear...antelope and elk...I don�t know how many coyotes out to long range and back...feral dogs, crows, wild cats, one cougar treed by dogs, and all kinds of vermin. In the wilds of Virginia on power line cuts I have shot deer grazing at very long range....I have shot heavy feral cattle at ranges to 150 yards. And with rocks and such...if you can see the target you can walk shots into it...this is one of those calibers that pushes up dust when things are hit....
And then came the 35 Imp/Whelen. Let me say that I�m not sorry that I improved my rifle�s chamber. But it will not do anymore than the standard chambering would on the lower 48 states game...save yourself the extra cost of reamers and special dies. But if you want 93% of the power of the great 375 H&H Magnum...if you want brass that doesn�t stretch, necks that rarely need trimming, and one of the nicest looking loaded rounds you can find then mayhaps the Improved version Whelen is what you are looking for.
And as for the critics saying that it doesn�t up velocities enough to make it worth it. I can get near heavy 375 H&H Magnum velocities with 15 to 18 grains less powder! I think it is worth it, if you are going to take it to Africa...going to take it to Canada or Alaska...it will bring down the largest of the thin skinned game. And I don�t know why anyone would...except a situation like I faced in 1958...but with the right bullet it will even take down elephant! Many gun writers I respect have said that the all around rifle/caliber for the world can be the 375 H&H. Well 375s take extra long actions...expensive actions and with the 300 grain Barnes bullets for the Whelen...the 375 doesn�t even have that edge any more..you can hunt small game with a 375 H&H but it�s not really adaptable to handgun velocities up to medium deer loads...the Whelen especially the Improved version can do it all...it�s the poor man�s magnum rifle round.....
In the photo....the first cartridge case is an unfired R-P Whelen nickel...the next three are military standard: # 1.173 Keith cast bullet...#2. WW 250 grain jacketed soft nose..#3. 280 gr Lyman 3589 and #4. Is the Brown/Whelen Imp and the 280 gr...the two cast bullets are Lyman�s fine Keith designs in 173 and 215 grains....
BEST LOADS OVER 30 YEARS....
60/4320 IMR 220 JRN/Speer 2740fps/3668ft.lbs 1954Speer/catalog
62.5 WW760 280 Lyman cast 2514fps/3930ft.lbs heavy game
45/4198 IMR 250 Lyman/cast 2800fps/4353ft.lbs most powerful
57/A2520 250gr WW JSN 2530fps/3554 ft.lbs heavy game
52/H335 275 JRN 2455 fps/3681 thick skin game
61.5/A2520 180 JSN 3059 fps/3740ft.lbs best all around jacket/load
53/H335 250 gr WW/JSN 2525 fps/3540ft.lbs heavy game
57/ReL #7 150gr Rem Jacketed 3248 fps/3514 ft.lbs medium game
57/WW760 325 Hoch 2210 fps/3525ft.lbs for large game
8/Bullseye 280 Lyman 1001 fps/640 ft.lbs pest/sm game load

Just saw your post 340... I bought my .35 Whelen <mine is an Ackley> from a guy that sent me his reloading components along with the rifle. He stated that the Speer 250s were too tough for good expansion at longer ranges..... so I mostly used them in fireforming loads... not sure if I have any of those left now.

Well he makes valid points on a larger Dia. bullet attaining higher velocity,they also shed that velocity faster than a longer same weight smaller diameter bullet.Comparing the same weight bullets in differnt calibers is silly!!!!!

In 20 plus years of loading and using those speer 250 grains ,Ive YET to see any indication that the speers are (TO TOUGH) or failed to expand, and I load for all the guys in our ELK camp with 358 wins and 35 whelens
ID SUGGEST you try a combo that pushes those speers to 2300fps in a 358 win or 2500 in a whelen and the SUGGESTED shot placement I listed above before assuming they don,t work....I don,t generally do simple pass thru,lung shots so that might be why your buddies having problems, concentrate on busting the arteries oover the heart and the off side leg after it passes thru those areteries if you get the chance

TRY WW-748,IMR -4320,IMR -4895 and IMR 3031,imr 4064 H380 ,H414 they all work in one or both rifles,in those calibers concentrate on accuracy not velocity, 40-50 fps is not significant in the results youll see,

Easy there big guy... I'm not assuming they don't work..... it's just what some guy included in his load notes Peace man
BTW I have a load with reloader 15 and 225 grain North Forks that prints clover leafs at a bit over 2700 fps with the Whelen. For hunting here in the East my load work is done.... until I run out of the NF bullets anyway, IIRC North Fork is/has closed up shop?

You can easily get 1900 (in 20") with 4759 and fine accuracy as well - 200 RN Lyman cast bullet. Reaching 2300 in my 20" Shilen with 250s is not easily done, but possible.

sorry, I was NOT trying to yell or be controversal,I was only to highlite the important info!

its taken years but most of the guys in our ELK camp slowly converted from the 7mm mags and 300 mags to the 338 mags ,338/06 , 35 whelen and 358 win caliber rifles as it became very obvious that while ranges where we hunt seldom exceed 250 yards that the heavier bullets seem to get faster results, now we still have guys using 30/06 and 270wins but theres a surprizing tendency now for the non-mag 338-358 caliber in lighter rifles and carbines in camp as we got older and smarter.
In fact theres only three guys (IM ONE at times) who don,t usually hunt now with a non-mag 338-358-458 caliber rifle, and one of those guys,arthur is talking about buying a 35 whelen or 450 marlin.

Bob Hagel (and I loved reading him) performed his testing in the pre-affordable pressure-test days. In the pre-1990's, one would just keep stuffing powder into the case and if it did not blow-up or expand the case head too much, things were OK. Today, things are different and there is no excuse for not testing throughly.

Before i bought my first .358, I read all the articles I could find on it ("The Great .358" is a good one):

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/notes/notes0404_0426/index.html

including Paco's. The thing he completely ignores here is that there is a world of difference between how a 200-gn 30 caliber bullet flies and penetrates, vs. a 35-val 200-gn bullet at the same speed. Not saying I don't like the latter- it's what I mostly use- just an observation.

One other comment with regards to the 250 Speer- boy, the 225-gn Partition gets NO LOVE on the 'fire in a .358! Surprises me. Plus the X-bullet guys don't seem to shoot .358's, either, so you don't hear much about X's in .358.

Keep talkin', I love reading anything anyone has to say about the great .358!

-jeff

Well, my read on this is that yes, Paco is pushing things to the limit. But I believe he states that fact.

My personal "answer" to this is to have more guns! But that's not the point.

If you think Paco is "off" on this, consider what Hornady has done with the 160 grain 30-30 Leverevolution loads or their heavy magnum loadings. They are just utilizing the latest technology to stretch a round's capabilities - same thing Paco is suggesting with the .358 Win.

And how many of us load up our 45-70's to near .458 Win Mag levels?

I used a load of 52 gr of W-748 under a 225 gr Partition in my MRC 1999 .358 Win. It did kick a bit in my light rifle (under 7 pounds) but the main problem I found was that the tiny granules of W-748, under pressure of a very compressed load, actually went through the primer flash hole and backed my primers out. I don't know if the difference was loading them a month or two before the hunt, the air pressure of the flight or what, but it was a problem I had not expereinced at home with fresh reloads.

After the third or fourth time of hearing a "click" instead of "bang," I used my PH's .375 H&H. Sometimes a second or third try on firing the round by just lifting the bolt handle to re-cock the rifle would work, but not all the time.

I found the 225 gr Barnes TSX and Nosler Accubond were too long for my rifle's throat and had to be seated too deeply. Personally, I like the 225 gr Partition.

My rifle has a 21-inch Montana Rifleman barrel and is in an Edge stock -

Those of us that are .35 fans do tend to be passionate about it I have only shot deer and groundhogs with mine so far, but they have all been impressive kills. IIRC I'm at 12 bang flops in a row with the Whelen on deer and not a lot of meat damage around the wound area. The Hornady 180 SSP bullet does a fine job on groundhogs.

I was really surprised to see the Remington CDL Whelens not sell well. I have been tempted to pick one up because the chamber on my Ackley Whelen was cut long for heaver bullets. In order to get good accuracy with the cast 275 grain bullets I have to seat them so far out that they will not feed well from the magazine.
I picked up the .358 mostly to try as a cast bullet gun.

This is agroup out of that rifle with the 52 gr of W-748 under a 225 gr Partition. I did use a mag primer, too. The group is .392, and most groups were a half-inch or so. The rifle has shot a 1/4-inch group with a 250 gr Hornady Spire point over IMR-4895. I wish I hadn't had the problems with the partition load in Africa....

That looks about like the barrel on mine, long shank and all.

I used the 225 Partition on a deer, it worked great. Just surprised it never even gets mentioned sometimes for elk. Given the limitations of the .358, and powder capacity and mag length are BIG ONES, a non-tipped 225-gn premium penetrator like the NP would seem about perfect... to me.

It's what I had loaded in mine the days I hunted elk with it! Alas and alack, have not been able to test it against an elk though.

-jeff