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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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...and the pendulum swings...
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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The prohibition of some drugs by the federal government is constitutional in the same way that there is a constitutional right to have an abortion. 9 old lawyers told me so.
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Campfire Kahuna
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As I noted, if you consider the war on drugs enhanced sentences, more arrests, etc, it has been a failure
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Then why has your state done just exactly that, both on the criminal and on the civil side? Carefully read the whole article and not just select tidbits that suit you. Emphasis on "carefully"
Further....are you under the mistaken impression that educational programs are not part and parcel of the WOD campaign?
Last edited by isaac; 05/05/08.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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But for now, state officials are finding themselves under mounting pressure to cut costs and are looking at their rising prison population. The prison I was just in for the Kairos weekend has a current population of 2400 women. When I first began doing Kairos there in 1995, there were 1800 women. They are in the process of building a huge new dorm that they say will enable them to double the population. I am trying to imagine what it will be like with 4000+ women there. Right now they get 15 minutes to eat dinner... longer and there's not enough time to feed everyone. I asked the inmates if they're building another kitchen/dining room as well. They said no. They couldn't figure out how 4000+ women were going to get fed. And right now there's a budget cutback... so the prisons are losing staff. Double the prison population but cut back on staff. Hmmmm... Penny
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. --Hebrews 11:1
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...and the pendulum swings... It's been headed that way for some time now. When I first started practicing law in 2001, it was easier to work your way out of a felony than a DUI. Felony Drug charges could be dismissed by completing "drug court." DUI? EVERYBODY took a hard line on it, and no deals were made. None! Today, the "drug court" concept is being extended to DUI. Why? Well, drug court works, and the numbers prove it. Instead of putting people in prison for drug crime, or just putting them on on probation and telling them "now you stay clean or else"...we are making them learn or re-learn how to get along in life. Make them complete intense drug treatment, not just attend a meeting or two. Make them complete their education or get a GED, and make them get or stay employed, or at least make an honest effort to gain employment. In Birmingham, the success rate is over 80%. It's a year long program, in which they are randomly tested, and the defendant pays for all drug tests and supervision fees, they do 100 hours of community service, go to be evaluated for treatment plans and must follow the court referral officer's plan, get a HS diploma or GED if they don't have one, maintain employment, and a pay $1500 Drug Court fee. If they fail out of the program by testing dirty or picking up a new criminal charge, they're sentenced to jail time as they've already entered a guilty plea. They're usually giving a "3 strikes" on dirty drug tests, but a new charge is an automatic ticket to conviction and jail. If they complete all the requirements and pay all the fees, they are brought back to court and the charges dismissed. It doesn't take a Phd in Sociology, or an accountant to see the plus side for the state financially, and for society as a whole. The same concepts are being used on DUI offenders now who have not been involved in a wreck, injured, or killed someone. The courts started to realize that punishments for DUI were far exceding the harm done when nobody was hurt or killed. People were losing their jobs, careers, marriages etc when they'd hurt nobody. Again when the defendant gets to stay out, is forced to work, and pay for his own rehabilitation, everybody wins. It doesn't work for all, but it's a dang sight better than just locking them up for a while and having the citizens pay the bill...and it creates room on the pen for those dangerous types that really need to be there for a good long time.
War Damn Eagle!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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"It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with socio-economics. The more money you have, the less likely you'll be convicted or spend time in jail. It's actually fairly easy to demonstrate that there is a direct relationship to the likelihood of conviction and imprisonment vs income"
there is an even more direct relationship between likelihood of conviction and imprisonment vs. guilt.
in other words, if you don't do the crime in the first place, your socioeconomic status is irrelevant.
and people who have substantial legal income don't usually indulge in burglary, robbery and drug dealing.....they're busy working.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
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Campfire Ranger
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I wonder how many (if any) perps have ever really tried to make an honest living at a productive legal trade. I can more readily sympathize with failures who've tried, but I suspect that crime is the first and only profession chosen by most criminals.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Outfitter
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...and the pendulum swings... It's been headed that way for some time now. When I first started practicing law in 2001, it was easier to work your way out of a felony than a DUI. Felony Drug charges could be dismissed by completing "drug court." DUI? EVERYBODY took a hard line on it, and no deals were made. None! Today, the "drug court" concept is being extended to DUI. Why? Well, drug court works, and the numbers prove it. Instead of putting people in prison for drug crime, or just putting them on on probation and telling them "now you stay clean or else"...we are making them learn or re-learn how to get along in life. Make them complete intense drug treatment, not just attend a meeting or two. Make them complete their education or get a GED, and make them get or stay employed, or at least make an honest effort to gain employment. In Birmingham, the success rate is over 80%. It's a year long program, in which they are randomly tested, and the defendant pays for all drug tests and supervision fees, they do 100 hours of community service, go to be evaluated for treatment plans and must follow the court referral officer's plan, get a HS diploma or GED if they don't have one, maintain employment, and a pay $1500 Drug Court fee. If they fail out of the program by testing dirty or picking up a new criminal charge, they're sentenced to jail time as they've already entered a guilty plea. They're usually giving a "3 strikes" on dirty drug tests, but a new charge is an automatic ticket to conviction and jail. If they complete all the requirements and pay all the fees, they are brought back to court and the charges dismissed. It doesn't take a Phd in Sociology, or an accountant to see the plus side for the state financially, and for society as a whole. The same concepts are being used on DUI offenders now who have not been involved in a wreck, injured, or killed someone. The courts started to realize that punishments for DUI were far exceding the harm done when nobody was hurt or killed. People were losing their jobs, careers, marriages etc when they'd hurt nobody. Again when the defendant gets to stay out, is forced to work, and pay for his own rehabilitation, everybody wins. It doesn't work for all, but it's a dang sight better than just locking them up for a while and having the citizens pay the bill...and it creates room on the pen for those dangerous types that really need to be there for a good long time. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Got one better then DUI/drugs, child support. I've seen people locked up in jail for being behind on child support. They loose their job while in jail, plus it puts them further behind in child support while in jail, and the citizens have to pay for keeping them in jail. I don't know about AL, but TN. got out of the probation business at the General & Circuit court level. The state still runs a state parole Dept. but that's for those getting out of the pen. They've allowed private probation Co's to take over, they're a joke. If that what's Barakistan is about they can keep it. It's all about the money, they will violate over the simplest thing, normally being behind on probation fees. Those on probation have to pay when they come to meet the probation officer, they have to pay for this and for that, it's a racket. Many don't have a job or can't get a job, alot say, screw it, violate me, i'll set in jail and get three hots and a cot, plus medical care, versus having to pay all the probation money. It's truly a never ending circle, the probation Co. makes money for themselves and the for the county, but it costs just as much or more to keep the person in jail after they've been violated. What really is funny is that i've seen the board of directors of some of these probation Co's, they're elected DA's & Sheriff's.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Jim....Is that the Bessemer Drug Court program?
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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As I noted, if you consider the war on drugs enhanced sentences, more arrests, etc, it has been a failure
_______________________________________________
Then why has your state done just exactly that, both on the criminal and on the civil side? Carefully read the whole article and not just select tidbits that suit you. Emphasis on "carefully"
Further....are you under the mistaken impression that educational programs are not part and parcel of the WOD campaign? You apparently to dense to actually parse the written word. Le me spell it put for you yet again. 1. The name of this thread is Prison Nation2.The discussion has been about how enhanced sentences and longer prison terms have failed to bring down drug use 3. Read the line you quoted above: if you consider the war on drugs enhanced sentences, more arrests, etcSo, starting from the premise that we are speaking of the war on drugs as enhanced sentenced and longer prison terms then it follows that we are, for the purposes of this discussion not including education. Clear enough for you?
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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I wonder how many (if any) perps have ever really tried to make an honest living at a productive legal trade. I can more readily sympathize with failures who've tried, but I suspect that crime is the first and only profession chosen by most criminals. What's interesting is that most of the blue collar criminals actually make less than the poverty level, and would probably do better economically with a minimum wage job. Of course you don't have to pay rent while in jail.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire Tracker
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I ought to point out that crack and meth share a very nasty characteristic. One hit is all it takes to addict most people. Heroin a bit longer. I don't see booze being quite so emphatic. Besides, in my previous post, I outlined what those users actually do. Legalizing those drugs would not reduce the need and the necessity of paying for it. End result--burglary,robbery,theft,prostitution. The only other option would be government supplied crack and meth. So what is the answer?? Jail is about as good as we are going to get for the foreseeable future. I'd like to see proof of your claims of immediate addiction. I've taken a few classes in drug use prevention and have close friends that deal with addicts for a living and NOTHING official I've ever seen has made that claim. I personally think it's on the order of an old wive's tale until I see something in writing from a good source. I'll save you the trouble. Myth 3: Even one-time meth use leads to addiction.
Experts estimate that it takes from 2 to 5 years to establish methamphetamine addiction, but acknowledge reports of meth addiction occurring in less that one year of regular use.[6] Addiction is usually the result of chronic use, leading to increased tolerance, higher and more frequent dosages, and changes in ingestion methods.[7] The intense euphoria meth users report may leave many who did not plan to continue using the drug eager to repeat the experience A person does not become addicted to drugs after one episode of abuse, but a person can die as a result of one episode of drug abuse. The drugs can act on other body systems with a lethal outcome.
Last edited by SteelyEyes; 05/05/08.
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Jim....Is that the Bessemer Drug Court program? I was specifically referring to Jefferson Co. Birmingham Division. Jefferson Co. Bessemer Division is actually a separate judicial circuit even though it's in the same county. I don't know anything about Bessemer's. Bessemer is cliquish, and if you aint from there, they don't want you there, and you'll get screwed bad. I went there twice, and once got shafted by a Circuit Judge, and once the DA tried to and I saw it coming and headed it off. So, after that, I stayed away when I was in private practice. Most any Birmingham lawyer without Bessemer connections will tell you the same thing. Why do you ask? The reason I cited Birmingham's is because it was the first in the state. The judge that helped me get started as a green lawyer was the judge of drug court and he brought drug court to AL. He's retired from the bench now and works for Sue Bell Cobb, the Chief Justice of the AL SC, consulting with DA's and judges around the state setting up drug courts. Sue Bell, wants every circuit to have a working drug court by the time her term is up.
War Damn Eagle!
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SteelyEyes, prior to working in IT, I was a Chemist and toxicology. I have yet to see a single, peer reviewed study that proves instant addiction with crack or meth. It is pure BS not supported by a single scientific study.
If anyone on this list can cite a single peer reviewed scientific study to support this contention, let's see it.
Methamphetamine (n-methyl-1-phenyl-propan-2-amine) is not exactly a new drug. It's over 100 years olds and was in common use until fairly recently. It's been used by soldiers to ward off fatigue since at least WWII, as well as being prescribe for a variety of condition in the 1950s. It is still used medically under the brand name Desoxyn.
Crack cocaine is a freebase form of the drug, so there is an actual chemical difference from cocaine HCL, the most common powdered form of the drug. The freebase is more quickly absorbed into the bloodstream than the alkaloid salt. Otherwise crack is metabolized in the same fashion as any other form of cocaine.
There is still debate about whether or not cocaine should actually be considered 'addictive' since it lacks the physical effects of classical addictive drugs like opiates. There are no physical withdrawal symptom associated with cocaine use, in contrast to methamphetamine There does seem to be a strong psychological addiction present in many users.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Jim...Why can't they cover it all merely in the penalty portions of their statutes as Va and other states do? Why fund a new court when it can be part and parcel of the penalty portion of criminal statutes? Bessemer began it's Drug Court in 2001 and many states have been looking at it and some, like Va, implemented a variation of these type programs as a possibility under our penalty statutes. I've given you a quick glance below.(summarized of course) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://virginiacriminallawyers.vatrafficlaw.com/pages/drugs.html
Last edited by isaac; 05/05/08.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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SteelyEyes, You updated your post as I was posting.  While the scientific studies clearly falsify (i.e. render false) the contention that one use can lead to addition, you won't hear that because it doesn't play into the government propaganda. While no one wants to see people destroying their lives, lying is apt to have unintended consequences in the future Once people figure out that they don't become addicted instantly, not only are they probably more likely to use again, but they are also likely to disregard the true dangers of drugs.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I wonder how many (if any) perps have ever really tried to make an honest living at a productive legal trade. I can more readily sympathize with failures who've tried, but I suspect that crime is the first and only profession chosen by most criminals. What's interesting is that most of the blue collar criminals actually make less than the poverty level, and would probably do better economically with a minimum wage job. Of course you don't have to pay rent while in jail. Yeah, but the hours suck on minimum wage jobs, and you got to take orders from the man (although its usually a black woman here, but you know what I mean). Working around hot grease, shoveling dirt in the New Orleans heat, working on a flat roof where its over a hundred degrees, working in a hot nasty shipyard for a lousy fifteen bucks an hour.....euchhhhhhh. And BTW, they pay ten bucks a hour for fast food help here. With a signing bonus. Not enough to entice the gangstas away from their glamorous lifestyle.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
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Jim...Why can't they cover it all merely in the penalty portions of their statutes as Va and other states do? Why fund a new court when it can be part and parcel of the penalty portion of criminal statutes? Bessemer began it's Drug Court in 2001 and many states have been looking at it and some, like Va, implemented a variation of these type programs as a possibility under our penalty statutes. I've given you a quick glance below.(summarized of course) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://virginiacriminallawyers.vatrafficlaw.com/pages/drugs.html Bob, I'm not sure if this answer's your questions. Our statutes regarding courts enable the DA to have prosucutorial discretion in deferring prosecutions on those charged with crimes. Drug Court and Deferred Prosecution, by law in AL, are within the discretion of the DA. A new court is not created in actuality. An existing judge handles the caseload and administers the program. In AL the Rule of Criminal Pro. say that you can plead guilty, but until your sentenced the court retains jurisdiction and may set aside the plea. Put in real simple terms, thats the legal pegs we hang our hats on. The judge that runs drug court in Jefferson County is a District Judge. In AL, this is where all prosecution at the county level begin. They have exclusive jurisdiction over misdemeanors, and can hold preliminary hearings on felonies, and accept felony pleas, but it's not a trial court. All drug cases are run through his court to see if they qualify for drug court. He handles a caseload of other cases too, but they divide the work among 3 district judges so the remainder of his caseload is small. The funding comes from the fees paid by the defendants. In Jefferson County it's self sustaining. Does that answer what you asked?
War Damn Eagle!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yes it does. In essence, you're state is not much different than ours if your drug court isn't really a seperate drug court. Actually, there's very little difference in the 2 states except our ACA's don't have the discretion your state seems to provide your ADAs.
Last edited by isaac; 05/05/08.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Yes it does. In essence, you're state is not much different than ours if your drug court isn't really a seperate drug court. Actually, there's very little difference in the 2 states except our ACA's don't have the discretion your state seems to provide your ADAs. Yeah, technically, it's not a separate court. It's a program administered by an existing court. AL law is very clear in that the DA has sole discretion. More than one judge has had a writ of mandamus handed down for allowing a defendant to go through drug court/deferred over the DA's objection. If the DA says no, the judge has no jurisdiction to override that. The key, and this is also covered in our statutes, is the the DA should put the qualifying and disqualifying criteria down in writing and stick to it. It's when they start cherry picking for the programs. Each county that has a drug court runs it very differently. Some, for small drug cases even have their fees and community service reduced, and a "non-plea track" where they don't even enter a guilty plea, so if they drop out, then they are back at square one. Those are rare though. And as you can imagine, change like this where it's percieved as "easy on crime and criminals" is slow going in the rural areas of the state...the areas that need it most!
War Damn Eagle!
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