Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Second Amendment Bad Day For Vicki Weaver's Killer

Federal Appeals Court finds FBI sniper can be tried for manslaughter. Randy has to feel good about that. Details:<P><A HREF="http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010606-18829600.htm" TARGET=_blank>www.washtimes.com/national/20010606-18829600.htm</A>

6 to 5 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Sounds to me like 5 Judges that need to be taken out back and horse whipped.<P>------------------<BR>Lest not we forget, America is a Republic, NOT a democracy. Learn the difference, spread your knowledge, help end the lie. Fear a government that fears your guns.

I'm sure this opinion is going to be welcomed like a turd in a punch bowl, and let me preface it by saying that I am not in any way excusing the governments actions at Ruby Ridge. But, I wasn't there, and I don't know what was said to Horiuchi, if he was released to take any shot he felt was viable, then I honestly feel that not only him, but his superior officer who gave him the OK share responsibility. And, that brings us to the larger question of when, people, acting as agents of the US government should have to assume individual responsibility for "collateral damage". I don't know if Horiuchi took the shot he claims and Randy Weaver's wife was a victim of a shot gone bad or if he deliberately shot through the door. I guess the trial will help clear that up. It is apparently an undisputed fact that Randy's brother-in-law was running for the cabin and she was holding the door open for him when she was hit and killed.<P>The point of this is, the government has assumed responsibility for this incident, has paid in the neighborhood of 4 million dollars to the Weavers for their loss, and I think it is time to move on. As best as I understand it, Horiuchi had a "free fire" zone and I am not sure he has to personally take responsibility for the results of that order.<P>Otherwise, why can't someone in Bosnia sue one of the bomber pilots for killing his sister who was not in a target area? Or someone sue a Seal for killing their husband when he was not a combatant? Or a border patrol agent when he is in a gun battle with coyotes for a bullet hitting one of the innocent illegals? Does anyone besides me see my point, where do you stop? I'm not excusing Horiuchi, or the multiple other government entities involved at Ruby Ridge, but they have paid for that mistake and I think it should have been allowed to rest. In addition, I will place strong odds that there is an extremely low chance of a conviction in this trial. On a personal basis, I think he deserves what he gets if he is convicted, but it is taking us farther down a very slippery slope.<p>[This message has been edited by If It Flies It Dies (edited June 06, 2001).]

How abut if an ATF agent comes in your house and blows one of your kids away? Think that's alright?

Obviously not, so what is your point?<P>The agent would not be acting under government orders, protocol, or guidelines and should be held responsible for his actions. All this assuming my child did not have a gun pointed at the agent, etc.<P>For instance, the cops who beat up Rodney King, without question, exceeded department policy and guidelines and, therefore, I do not believe the LAPD or LA itself should have been responsible, but they paid off anyway. The difference is, in Ruby Ridge, to the best of my knowledge, Horiuchi was acting under orders and within protocol, if, stress if, he just made a bad shot/decision.

In my view, Horiuchi needs to be held personally accountable. This was a police action, not military. This was peacetime, not war. Horiuchi killed from a concealed position, as a sniper, not in hand-to-hand combat. I think most people believe this event took place because the government agencies involved allowed it to happen, maybe even wanted it to happen, in order to make a political statement. The judges made the determination that this sniper acted out of malice or excessive zeal, and therefore cannot hide behind his badge. I don't believe he was the only agent at Ruby Ridge that acted out of malice, but we'll take what we can get. ~ Dan

I was not there either,but Huriachi was interviewed and I remember seing him say on camera that he was able to hit a half dollar size target all day at 200 yds. If he was that good of a shot, then I do not see how he could have mistaken a woman with a baby in her arms for an armed agressor. Even during a war, if you can be charged with murder if you commit an illeagle killing. Now granted this was not war, but he screwed the pooch and he needs to take responsibilty for his actions. Just my humble opinion.<BR>Keeb

IIFID, I think this is a little diferent from your examples. When a government deliberately goes after its own citizens and kills them when they present no threat to that government, then it needs to be held accountable. Then, maybe the sniper disobeyed or misunderstood the orders. I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know.<BR> I do know this. No matter how much the government pays Randy Weaver, it won't bring back his dead wife and kid. It never should have happened.

Anybody Nurimburg (that isn't spelled right). Nazi solders and guards were on trail and the I was just following orders defence was shoot down. Just MHO....

<BR> I say put his whole chain of command in the Penitentiary. Americans had BETTER! be worried about FBI arrogance and what happened at Ruby Ridge. It if would have been a regular cop, State or down, he'd be hanging from his teste's in the shower room at the Federal Pen.<P> Cause if the State didnt hang him the Waffen S.....er, I mean , The FBI would hang him, mistake or not.<P> What happened at Ruby Ridge wasnt so much that a innocent woman got killed holding her baby, as terrible as that was, what happened was the Arrogant Justice Dept./FBI gave their field officers "special enagament rules" that authorized the use of deadly force against ANY! non-LEO individual in the incident who was holding a firearm.<P> And can you imagine it is only the guy who pulled the trigger who might be held to answer for Ruby Ridge. The Big Shots covered their own ass's with the taxpayer's dollars, about 3.1 million right?<P> In over 20 years of Law Enforcment I have never heard of such arrogance and contempt for the Law. Go ahead and read any state or federal statute that governs the use of deadly force, they will all say different variations of the same theme, DEADLY FORCE CAN ONLY BE USED IN THE DEFENSE OF LIFE, YOUR'S OR ANOTHERS. The Policy's of a Police Dept. are usually even more restrctive because we have to first attempt the use of non-deadly force , or , to be able to show that the attempted use of non-deadly force was impractical.<P> Randy Weaver is a white supremist, a Nazi sympathizer, and , in my opinion, a complete *******. He is the kind of American that is going to sink the right's of lawful gunowner's in this country. I want nothing to do with someone like that and God help us if we "gunowner's" allow people like him to become a hero.<P> But the guy was setup by the "G", "from what I hear the whole sawed off shotgun thing was a entrapment", and the whole initial "SWAT operation" against his mountain was soemthing so ridiculous that only some deskbound,Klinton appointed, affirmitive action clown could have dreamt up in the first place. DID I SAY JANET?<P> It was a lousy "gun warrant", big deal! But the arroagnt Justice Dept., and the head Dyke Janet, decided they werent going to allow another standoff, one way or another.<P> The end product of the decision of these Political *******'s was a dead Kid , a severely wonded citizen, and a dead LEO. And for what?, a lousy sawed off shotgun warrant?<P> Then Janet and the rest of our "involved" Political Master's decided they were going to save even more "Poltical Face" and send in the A-team, complete in black pajama's, 5.56 mm, sniper rifles, and all the other toy's "despite the fact they knew kids& a woman were up there". By God they werent about to be made to look like fools again as they were in TX. with the Kiddy lover.<P> I guess it never occurred to them to send someone up to that shack , un-armed, and say something like "look were sorry all this happened, it was only a warrant. Lets help each other bury our dead and then we'll sit down and work out the warrant thing. Theres no reason anyone else should die".<P> The Govt. would never do this with a white supremist or a Nazi sympathizer. Billy Klinton, Hillary in Drag, and the dyke would be to afraid their Political correctness Pole numbers would go down. I hate Nazi's too but theres no doubt in my mind that they have Freedom of speech as much as I.<P> But the people in power unleashed this SWAT team on a bunch of scared citizen's in a cheap Cabin. They gave unlawful order's to the Agents involved ; They told them they are authorized to shoot ANYONE CARRYING A GUN ; They told them that ANYONE CARRYING A GUN IS TO BE PRESUMED HOSTILE AND A DEADLY THREAT.<P> Did all Lawful gun-owner's just hear what I said?<P> So then an inncocent woman, who never harmed anyone, got shot out from under her baby. Way to go FBI!<P> The Political operatives who were the ones who REALLY pulled that trigger and, REALLY put that bullet thru her, covered their own ass's, with the taxpayer's money. and the FBI proves , yet again, that they are above the Law.<P> Why is only the sniper being prosecuted? , or, "may be prosecuted"? Why arent the major decision makers, who gave that un-lawful and un-constitutional, order NOT being prosecuted? Why has this bunch been allowed to run around free for all this time" and not have been made to answer for all this?<P> Just imagnie if this happened now, with Georgie in office, and if a Black racist was in that Ruby Ridge cabin. what do you think would happen now?<P> Why is this wretched,unlawful, out of control FBI still allowed to operate in this country "Indeed the whole world" without having to be answerable to the citizens they are supposed to protect?<P> The kind of person Weaver is has nothing to do with what is happening in this country, and, what happened on that mountaintop of Ruby Ridge. You see how close to the brink we came when Al Gore was tottering on the edge of becoming the next President. If the forces of common sense,reason, and conservatism dont triumph in this country then God help us. We will end up with more Klintons, more Gore's, more Reno's, more Jackson's, and more Federal agent's who think they dont have to answer to the same Law's the common "Serf's" do.<P> And you had better be worried about this FBI. Whether you are a Lawful gunowner or not you had better be afraid of the damage these people can do to you and the country you love.<P> I know they scare me ; I wouldnt trust 'em as far as I could throw them.........................10

Amen 10pt! <BR>Welcome back!

I agree with you 10pt, the whole chain of command are the guilty parties. And should be put in jail, but I doubt that is going to happen. Horiuchi is the fall guy, and I doubt that the is going to go down either. We'll see, be interesting to read a court transcript when it is over, if he ever comes to trial.

"Every day in this country, federal agents place their lives on the line to secure liberties that we all hold dear," Judge Hawkins wrote. <P>should read. Take notice of the slight modification that changes the whole meaning.<P>"Every day in this country, federal agents place their lives on the line to take away liberties that we all hold dear," Judge Hawkins wrote. <BR>

"Every day in this country, federal agents place their lives on the line to secure liberties that we all hold dear," Judge Hawkins wrote. <P>should read...<BR> <BR>"Every day in this country, federal agents place their lives on the line to take away liberties that we all hold dear," Judge Hawkins wrote. <P>Take notice of the slight modification that changes the whole meaning.<P>Sorry for the double post, I meant to hit edit, not reply with quote. Whoops!<p>[This message has been edited by big hunter (edited June 11, 2001).]

I have been a member of the NYC Police Department for 20 years. I am presently a Captain. There is no such thing as special rules of engagement. I was not in the Army so I do not know what a free fire zone means. I do know that a police officer can only use deadly physical force to protect himself or another person. I am sorry that this agent must stand trial but I believe it is nessary to get to the facts. Who made up these rules, who knew about it, who told the agent, was it written or verbal? We must ensure that it never happens again.

10point<P>A little refresher.<P>The shootings took place in August of 1992. George H. W. Bush was president and Janet Reno was working in Florida. klinton was governor of Arkansas. He got elected in November of 1992, long after Sammy and Vicki and Striker were dead. He appointed Reno as AG sometime after he was sworn in in 1993.<P>This one they inherited. Waco was on their watch.<P>And, as far as opinions go, everyone has them.<P>Did it ever occur to you that the Weaver's might just have been separatists, not supremasists? Have you done any research on this?<P>I've noticed, since the time of the assault, a lot of the press now generally refers to them as "white separatists" and not as "supremasists". <P>I've never personally heard nor read any convincing evidence that they were nazi loving anythings.<P>While your opinions and points show your concern for the heart of the matter you might want to check out some of the facts a little more closely.<P>Have a good one.<P>2d<P>

<BR> No I havnt checked, it may very well be that you are right. I remember that either Ruby Ridge or Waco happened shortly before Klinton got in ,and the other one after, both prosecuation's happened dureing Klinton's reign.<P> It doesnt matter, my condemation's of Klinton, and his little A--action Mutt Reno, are the same. George SR. was no prize either, tho I cant at least respect a war veteran and a war leader.<P> I dont take back what else I said. Weaver got railroaded ; One of the biggest reason's he ended up beating the rap was cause BATF agents lied in order to get the intital warrant to go after him. They then setup a elaborate military type seige of his land and cabin when they guy told them to "stuff it", he wasnt going to cooperate to help the Fed nail his friends.<P> This was alledged by his attorney, "The US Marshall's called in Military ariel reconnaissance and had photo's studies by the Defense Mapping agency. They had psychological profiles drawn up and $130,000.00 of solar powered spy cameras installed. They intercepted Weaver's mail; They even knew the menstrual cycles of Weaver's daughter and planned an arrest scenario around it."<P> They then did their little "BATF surveliance thing" and ran into the guy's dog. Like a good G-man they shot the dog. Then they got in a firefight with two kids, killed one by shooting him in the back "Weaver's Son", and then got one of their own killed in return.<P> I serve warrants all the time, this sure seem's like overkill to serve a warrant. In fact , it seem's moronic, these type's of warrants are very common. Can you imagin how much of our money these "Rambo's" spent on this silly crap?<P> Then Weaver got shot in the back by this same sniper as he was walking to the shed where his dead son lay. As he staggered back to the cabin he got to watch his wife get shot out from under their baby as the FBI "super sniper" mixed up his target's.<P> Old Louie Freeh then really got tough on these agents, a total of 400 were involved in this incident, by promoting the guy who ran the thing, after suspending him initialy.<P> The Head Agent Larry Pott's has been suspended, along with other's, following a probe into the destruction of documents concerning the incident.<P> Our good ole Goverment, you can always count on "documents being destroyed", or , "E-mails being lost".<P> It was "Larry Pott's" that approved the changed "rules of engagement" Horiuchi has about as much defense over that as the Nazi's had at Nuremburg. Just becuase a superior say's you can shoot illegally, and unconstitutionaly, doesnt mean you can. Or so the law would go for us "Local serf cop's".<P> All this might have happened under Busch's watch but the coverup, and decision NOT! to prosecute federaly, happened on Klinton's watch, with the dyke at the helm.<P> A SWAT team from the Denver Police, at the scene, quitely agreed that they would not follow these revised "un-constitutional" rules of engagement, but, would follow their traditional ones. Most independent observer's agree that this "Helicopter" the shooter said he was protecting was no where around at the time the woman got murdered.<P> Yes Capt. the FBI really gave out "License to Kill" order's. A "License to kill order" is what legaly cover's soldier's in war when they kill an enemy even when the enemy isnt directly threatening them. The adjusted rule's of engagement were that they could kill any "armed Male". <P> The bottom line? The FBI declared war on Americans on American soil. They ceased to become a Law Enforcement agency and instead became an "Army of Occupation". Not only have those involved not been prosecuted but they are still active agents and are drawing paycheck's.<P> It doesnt matter if Weaver is a supremist or a sepratist. He stills has a right to believe what he wants without being railroaded, and having his family murdered, dureing an "act of War" by the US Govt.<P> Meanwhile Klinton's *****'s in the media protrayed the whole thing as "another battle in the War on Gun's". Weaver was portrayed as a "Gun Nut", they dangled 3.1M at him, and procedded to cover up the incident. My whole point in refering to him as a "Nazi sympathiser" is that is what the Klinton administration tried to label him as when they were trying to coverup the incident.<P> Maybe "JackBooted Thug's" isnt such a bad description after all. The more I learn about that incident the more I believe that...............10<BR> <BR> <BR>

10point.<P>That about sums it up.<P>I just wanted to point out that some of this **** was happening before the klintonista's got in and the press bias drives a lot of opinion that some accept as fact.<P>From what I know about the family, because of her fundamentalist beliefs, Vicki was the one who convinced them to move from Iowa to Idaho. More to separate from society in general than any purely racial thing.<P>Randy just doesn't particularly like a lot of things. That too, includes much more than the press and government would want us to believe. When they get us to accept and perpetuate their labels they're winning.<P>Gun-nuts, rednecks, Bubba's, miltia, racists and on and on. They all sort of get tied together to help paint the lie.<P>2D<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by twodogs (edited June 12, 2001).]

<BR> Something about this whole incident really disturb's me. Since when did a lousy gun warrant become this important, not only in the cost of lives, but in the cost of recources too.<P> I have to tell you guy's that, from the viewpoint of someone who is on both sides of the fence, these people just simply have to be prosecuted. This is just blatant and totally unreasonable. Its "ego's gone wild", that damn FBI SWAT team was created with the understanding that it would operate strictly oversea's and here they are killing Americans, in America, under rules of Wartime.<P> Im so glad that I am in the "Service,Protection, and maintaining the peace" business business and NOT! running arpound with these character's. I know these "Little boy's with their Big Toy's" kind of cop, its no problem as long as they remember they are there to "Protect & to Serve".<P> There's no question these "special order's of engagement" were given. Right now there seem's to be a problem as to the Who, he Where, the How, and the exact When.<P> Gee does that surprise you ? I want to add that AT NO TIME! has the Goverment taken responsability for what happened. All they did was give Weaver 3.1 mil of your money, under the agreement that they were taking no responsability and admiting no guilt.<P> Thats how these settlements are made. And all for a lousy Gun warrant..........10

Weaver's real crime was one we all commit every day: He was an arrogant citizen.You may be charged with anything from littering to attempted adultery,but the one thing the feds cant stand is the arrogant citizen.