Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Gosh how bad does a .458 Win mag hurt?

I wanted to do one for the 50th anniversary this year but did not get the opportunity to publish it. I have never seen an article written on the .460 Weatherby that contained comprehensive loading data or any real hands on experience.

The accuracy is beyond what most will experience regardless of chambering, and trajectory is near identical to the .30/06 with power levels that slam the biggest of game to the ground. It is the king of big game cartridge.

JW

Getting back to the original topic;

I see the .458 differently to most hunters. For me, I see it as a wonderful big game cartridge in a manouverable rifle for timber or brush hunting, or tight situations where speed and reaction is paramount.

For me, this means the .458 is best in a Model 70 Winchester with 22" barrel. I have used .458's in 22", 24" and 25" barrels but find my interst is catered to with the shorter versions, especially in the model 70 action.

If I want a 10 pound plus rifle with a longer barrel, I have the .460. My .458 is a hand picked rifle topped off with 2-7 Leupold that shoots better than most .243's. As a pair, I am ready for any game in any terrain, at any range I would shoot such game. They make a great pair and can cover each other in a pinch with an ammo change.

The .458 is also a great deer cartridge in heavy timber which covers both elk and sambar.

JW

AGW,
Exactly my thoughts! The 458WinMag can be built like a sporter which makes it a very handy rifle. The likes of the CZ550's are just too heavy to be portable. My Zastava 458WinMag weighed right on 4kg loaded and scoped ... it was fantastic with a 350gr Hornady RN at 2460fps and a 480gr Woodleigh at 2060fps was also quite manageable. Truth be told, a Marlin 1895SS in 45/70 loaded to the hilt was an intolerable beast of a rifle compared to the 458WM and the CZ550 458Lott. When built as a sporter, the 458WinMag is surprisingly versatile. That's something I've also felt true regarding the 375H&H ... CZ's make for damn heavy 375's, whilst the Rem Safari Classic was a beautiful sporter that never punished you when being carried or shooting it.
Cheers..
Con

Although I've never fired a .458 I can only imagine. Here is a link to a good page about recoil. http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

If you look at the table from the link you can get an idea about the .458 from other calibers you have fired. I have a Rem 7mm mag and a Browning 300 Ultra Mag (not a short mag). According to the table, the 7mm has 19.2 lbs of recoil energy which is easily manageable. The 300UM has 32.8 lbs of recoil energy whereas the .458 has 62.3. My shoulder can tell you from personal experience that the 300UM kills at both ends so I can only cringe at the thought of a .458


It's just my opinion but the .458 falls into the category of "Holy Crap That Hurt". It's one of those guns where you wonder how close you can get it by just bore sighting

Bore sighting usually does not work with a .458.

When you sight one in at 100 yards and then bore sight, the bore is usually low and left of the aim poimt.

Only shooting sights a rifle. Bore sighting is only a starting point.

JW

I�ve fired my friends 458 and it�s a good woman�s gun. Shoots like a rainbow. It�s probably the cheapest big gun on the market.

That's trash talk! Are you trying to be nasty or something? A 350 gr TSX at 2750 fps from my (not cheap) CZ550 in 458 Win shoots as flat as a 30-06 to 400 yds, is nearly twice as heavy as a 180gr, has about twice the striking energy with more than twice its cross-sectional area!

It's impossible to take you seriously bud... You need a 458 Win 101 seminar!

Try buying a 460 bee or a 416. Please post that data because my charts don�t show the 350. I find that very hard to believe. What is your powder charge in grains and was it verified by chrono or is it just spec. The Factory 458win was the one I was refering too. I wasn�t speaking of custom jobs.

378,
I never tried the 350's or 400's in the CZ550 but when I first reviewed this rifle I got the following results;

300gn Barnes X = 2805fps
500gn Win Fac = 2025fps
550gn Woodleigh = 2111fps
600gn Barnes RN = 1978gps

These results were up to 100-150fps faster than my 22" barrelled Model 70, using the same loads.

JW

I didn't take pics of my CHRONY's readings, as I often do because I publish a manual on the 458 Win. Last time out with the 350 TSX was June 18/08 at 12 noon and temp +15 Celsius (+60F). MVs were: 2713; 2702 and 2701. Avg corrected to muzzle=2715fps. That was with Win brass, 81grs RL-7, WLRM primers and the 350 TSX at 3.44"COL. I've recently switched to Win brass (which has more capacity that Rem)because it was difficult to find ANY 458 brass in Canada. I finally found some in Saskatchewan and they were Winchester. Previously, I'd been using Remington and they were getting close to the end--if you know what I mean. They hold a couple of grs less than Win. With Rem brass I was using 80 grs of RL-7 and getting MOA, or better, and about 2746 fps (avg).

My rifle is a stock CZ 550 with a long action (as long as the Lott)and the loads I use are similar to the Lott (a few grains less). It's barrel is 25". The above is NOT a max load, but pleasant to shoot and consistently accurate. I crimp in the bottom groove of the TSX bullet.

Yesterday, I fired some 500gr Hornadys over 80grs of H4895 at an avg corr. MV of 2282 fps. THAT get's your undivided attention!

Also, just in case someone might be interested... My CZ 550 is the "standard" grade... not the most expensive. But! It has, nonetheless, beautiful wood, the British style stock... not the Bavarian or the American, which is to my liking. It carries a fixed 4X Burris Short Mag in Warne QD mounts. It also has a lite dark green nylon sling attached. Total package weighs 10.2 lbs sans ammo. It's deep drop-box magazine will easily swallow-up 6 rounds! I carry with 4 in Ontario hunting. Does it go hunting? Absolutely! Though I've yet to take a critter with it as I've owned it less than a year. I expect it will first be bloodied by a black bear and those 350 TSXs come September. The "set" trigger has been adjusted so there is no more "set". It now has a clean break at 2.7lbs. I'd add a pic but don't yet know how that works on this forum.

CZ550,

Isn't it awfully hard to get 80 grains of H4895 in the case with a 500 grain bullet? It must be pretty compressed. Also, it's over maximum.

You might be surprised.

My .458 is no more unpleasant to shoot than my .300 Weatherby. Although it has more recoil energy, this is spread over about 50% more time. You don't want to shoot the .458 a lot off the bench, though, and always use a heavy pad off the bench. It's not a bench rest rifle.

458 is a powerful gun- no doubt. Next time your in the forest, find yourself a tree about 15 inch diameter. Take your 458 and shoot that tree. I quarantee your bullet won�t go through and a 300 grain over 116 grains of 7828 IMR will in the 378 weatherby . I know this because I�ve tryed it. I won a bottle of whiskey over that bet. I still have a hard time believing a fat bullet like that will follow the ballistic curve of a 30-06 to 400 yards. I don�t have tables here but I�m almost sure that�s not possible. I�d have a hard time doing that with my 378 and it�s lobing 300 grain bullets at 3000 ft/sec at muzzle with bullets having better BC than the 458.

I've posted details elsewhere ("pooped out Lott" thread), but mine is a CZ550 which has the same action and magazine as the Lott version in the same rifle. That means I can seat longer bullets, like the 500 Hornady and TSXs to a COL that about matches the Lott. BUT! The advantage goes to my rifle as the long bullets are close to the lands with minimal freebore. That means internally my barrel is actually longer than the Lott in the CZ550, and quite a bit longer than the Lott in the Ruger model. The "short" freebore in my rifle assures better accuracy and higher velocities--equal to the Lott with a 25" barrel with about 5 grs less powder! And MORE than the Lott in 24" factory tubes. So! Think of my rifle (handloaded) as the most efficient 458 Lott going!

There's a "lot" (pun intended)of prejudice on these treads re: the 458 Win, and ignorance of it's potential too. Some just repeating old worn-out, decrepit stories from the past and misguided. Even from a 24" tube in a "standard" M70, with todays powders, 2200 to 2300 fps from a 500-grain Hornady is possible. I've never yet explored the full potential of mine, but I know that better than 2300 fps from the 500 Hornady is well within its grasp! 80grs of H4895 isn't maximum in MY rifle, nor is 80 grs of H335. I've not yet tried AA2230--but I will. So far, it's not been available in my area (Ontario).

My COL with the 500 Hornady is 3.53" and the 450-gr Barnes X is 3.59" and the 350 TSX is 3.44". 80 grs of H4895 is only slightly compressed and NO sign of excess pressure in any way. 80 grs of H335 (the powder I actually use in my "hunting" load for the 500 Hornady is 78grs at 2202 fps--well below max)at 3.53" COL is actually a bit "loose" being a ball powder. 83 grs is "max". I also use a LEE crimp die and powder slightly compressed so there's no bullet movement in the magazine due to the heavy recoil. The 350 TSX is crimped in the bottom groove. Hope this explains things a bit--though it is long-winded. Understand, I write on these matters and publish what I write, so I can't be caviler.

Right or wrong I went with Terry Wieland's concept in DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES of having a Lott built with the idea of getting about 2250 fps with a 500-gr bullet out of a 22" barrel for an anticipated buff hunt. This at least equals most all the old British Nitro cartridges and exceeds the 458 Win. at a lower pressure.

I've achieved this velocity with ease and good accuracy with the 450-gr Barnes TSX and H4895 in my 9.75 lb rifle. I've not tried other premiums to this point.

To answer your question with some kind of equivalent experience, I'd say (and very subjectively) it's about like a 3.5" 12 ga. in a 7.5 or 8 lb shotgun all else being equal-like stock design, etc.-which of course it isn't. It's certainly very healthy but I must say about fifteen years of shooting a 340 Wby which seems to recoil much faster prepared me quite well.

Gdv

CZ550,

That explains it. I shoot a Winchester M70 and load all my rounds to 3.44" COL. It's easy to get 2200 fps with a Barnes 500 grain solid without any noticeable signs of pressure. I prefer the North Fork 450 grain solids but have to hoard them since North Fork went out of business. I load them to 2250 fps. For expanding bullets I use the 450 grain TSX. Basically I don't see any reason to shoot a Lott. Of course, it's easy to be an expert when I've never shot any dangerous game (yet).

AA2230 is hard to get anywhere. With the same weight of powder and bullet I get about 25 fps more than with H4895 and with a little less compression. I don't think compression is necessarily bad. I used to load 61 grains of surplus 4831 in a 30-06 for long range targets at Camp Perry. That's a really compressed load.

What do you publish on the .458 and where is it available?

It depends entirely on what bullets we're talking about in the 378, the 30-06 and the 458. As well as the velocities. I've shot a 405gr Remington from my Marlin 45-70 at 2085 fps thru a 16-inch tree "in the forest" and it plowed a 6 foot furrow at 15 yds the other side of the tree and was lost somewhere in the turf! So, it depends also on what tree we're talking about!

If it's rock maple, I'd like to see if your 300 from your 378 would go thru 15 inches of that! That's why it's called "rock" maple!

If were talking solids from both, yours at 3000 fps into a spruce, fir or aspen; hey! There's no doubt it would penetrate 2 feet or more! So would the 458 at 2200 to 2300. Then, it would also depend on what time of year... whether the saps running or frozen!

Re: the trajectory of the 30-06 versus the 458, 350 TSX , both at 2750 fps: a 180 Partition from the 30-06, zeored at 200 would be -8" at 300yds and -23" at 400 yds. The 350 TSX would be -9.3" at 300yds and -28" at 400 yds. Technically, you are correct. But, as I was intending, shooting moose at those ranges under field conditions, the one is as good as the other. My post was in response to the false notion that the 458 Win has a "rainbow trajectory". If that accusation were correct then so does the 30-06! That was my point.

Also, re: penetration-- a .458" solid bullet has to displace 50% more "wood" (material)than the .375" solid does if penetration is the same. Do the math! The .458" has a cross-sectional area of .165 sq-in and the .375" has a cross-sectional area of .110 sq-in. That too is a fact and has to be calculated into any evaluation.
In terms of Kinetic Energy, they are close with a slight edge going to the 378 Wby. But in terms of momentum, it shifts substantially to the 458 (in handloads)by 28% (2300 fps for the 500gr versus 3000 fps for the 300gr--do the math)!

I found with old factory loads (about 1930fps) and at about 10.25 lbs it was fun to shoot and painless while standing.
Bench-rest, still no pain, but a fair shock to my head and upper body. Not so funny.

At about 9 lbs and near max reloads, there was some "shock" to my brain pan, and my middle finger keeps getting wacked by the rear trigger guard. I've probably got a lighter hold of the stock now I'm more used to it. I don't benchrest it anymore, as I can do well enough with sticks and an elbow support.

Although I have fired .378 & .460 Wby. 30 years ago, the .458 is now my limit thanks.

I'm trying to remember who A.GunWriter is, I must have read him, but probably before I got interested in big-bores. I'll go thru some old issues looking for JW.

Here is my review of the CZ 550 when first released. Enjoy.


Reviewing the CZ 550 in .458 - by John Woods

Rifle reviews are always interesting because some rifles turn in surprising results and make the review both easy and pleasurable. The new BRNO model 550 is one of the better rifles I have reviewed because it shows many positive improvements over previous models, demonstrating the company�s commitment to providing a quality product that is functional, accurate and that represents value for money.

The obvious difference on opening the box was the high-quality figured walnut stock of full-sized proportions, which is apt for a rifle chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum. The length of pull measured 36cm, which is longer than standard and better suited to rifles with high levels of recoil, as the scope positioning offers greater eye relief.

Stock design was European in styling with cheekpiece, ventilated black rubber recoil pad and sling studs with QD swivels fitted as standard. The Schnabel fore-end design is in keeping with the European design and is quite popular in this country. Only one steel cross bolt is visibly positioned at the rear of the action under the tang.

The action is magnum length and still qualifies as a square bridge Mauser design with a noticeably improved finishing procedure over earlier 660 models so chambered in .458 Magnum. This model is exceptionally well finished and has a nicely polished blued action.

Brno has again stayed with the dovetail bases integral with the action design and is quite a sturdy system, as long as the mounts that are mass produced by some other manufacturer are kept to a reasonable tolerance, allowing for good positioning and fit with the bridge.

Because the same action is used for rifles chambered for the longer .375 H&H round, these rifles are very popular with riflemen who like to re-chamber their .458s to accommodate a longer cartridge case such as the Ackley version or .458 Lott. This action will also satisfy that market, although our main concern here is to evaluate the standard .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge for which this sample was chambered.

The trigger will please many users, as it is fully adjustable and is also of the European �Set� configuration, which means simply that you can use it with standard weight of pull as I did during my tests or, after cocking the rifle and pushing the trigger forward, the trigger is �set� so that it breaks very lightly in a �hair trigger� format. This is very handy when range shooting or attempting to take longer range or accurate shot placement in the field because the trigger breaks and the rifle fires before the shooter gets a chance to flinch, thereby contributing to accuracy.

The bolt is pure Mauser design, with a partially recessed bolt face, claw extractor and controlled round feeding. A single gas port is positioned centrally behind and under the locking lugs to redirect any escaping gases into the magazine box, down away from the shooter�s face. The bolt handle has been slimmed down and partially hollowed out to further trim weight.

The safety catch is located on the right side of the action, positioned for easy access by the right thumb. The European tradition has at last been broken with this model, which has the safety activated by thumbing the safety rearward so that it is in what we call the �normal� forward pushed position to release. The safety also locks the bolt. This means that multiple rounds cannot be cycled through the action without dismantling the bolt unless you look at the next unique feature on this bolt, which I have not seen before. It is a small, flat button on the left side of the bolt shroud that can be depressed when the rifle is cocked.

Because the firing pin partially protrudes the rear of the bolt shroud when acting as a cocking indicator, you can depress this button and then squeeze the trigger, resulting in the firing pin moving forward, but not enough to un-cock the bolt. In addition to this, the trigger becomes locked and prevents an accidental discharge. What it actually achieves is to allow the bolt to open with the rifle remaining cocked. Raising the bolt handle reactivates the trigger and allows the rifle to be used as normal. For removing or cycling a magazine full of cartridges through the action, this procedure would have to be done once per round to ensure safety.

While some models have a removable box magazine, the model 550 features a standard hinged floor plate with release catch positioned in front of the trigger guard. Everything is good old-fashioned steel, which will please many.

Another feature exclusive to Brno rifles for magnum calibres is the magazine capacity. This rifle very comfortably digested five rounds in the magazine box with the possibility of a sixth round being chambered and the rifle carried in an un-cocked position, necessitating a simple bolt lift to cock the action. In a life and death situation, or for a dangerous game rifle, this is a real bonus.

The barrel is quite long for a .458, measuring 63cm or just less than 25". This almost magnum-length barrel contributed to the highest velocities I have ever chronographed on any .458 rifle.

It also came fitted with three leaf Express sights shaped with a shallow �V�, with one fixed and sighted for 100 yards and two additional marked 200 and 300 yards. The foresight featured a hooded ramp with front bead silvered to enable easier sighting and visibility in poor light conditions. The rifle was very comfortable to shoulder and point, with the open sights always aligned after shouldering the rifle.

During the range shooting session, I had several people shoulder the rifle and comment on its nice feel and balance as it came out of the box. They also approved of the natural line-up of the open sights. This had an influence on the shooting, as I usually fit a scope to any rifle being assessed to better ascertain the accuracy potential of the test rifle.

This Brno was a little different for two reasons. To begin with, the rifle was supplied with a signed-off test target from the factory that I measured at .599", which, in my experience, is very good but not unusual accuracy from a .458 Magnum.

The second reason was that the mounts supplied with the rifle were a pain to fit, being of the four-screw-per-ring design, which is a plain stupid design and totally unnecessary to hold a scope in place on a heavy recoiling rifle. Equate that with the limited ability to provide equal tension on each of the eight screws involved and you have a recipe for tension and stress, which affects accuracy. After spending half an hour attempting to fit a scope to my satisfaction, I removed the mount and assessed the rifle as it came, with the factory sights.

Because this rifle is primarily thought of as a dangerous game rifle, �minute of buffalo� is more the requirement rather than minute of angle and this particular rifle had already been assessed at the factory as a sub-minute performer with factory ammunition, although the brand of ammunition was not stated on the target provided.

I began tests by setting up my Oehler 35P chronograph to read velocities at 15 feet, which allows for about 20fps additional velocity to be added for muzzle velocity. Using the Winchester 510-grain factory soft points as a starting point, I shot groups of about 3 1/5" to 4", which is the best my tired middle-aged eyes can do at 100 yards (91.4m). This is acceptable accuracy and what most hunters would be happy to achieve over the same range. The rifle also was sighted in line and slightly low, which was acceptable for testing purposes.

The Winchester factory cartridges chronographed at 2025fps, which is close enough to factory specs and delivered 4576ft/lbs of energy. That is enough to have earned the cartridge a reputation throughout 44 years as the premier dangerous game stopper for the professional or seasoned user. Most rifles in this caliber deliver velocities between 1900-1950fps. I attributed the increased velocity of the Brno at first to the longer barrel.This led me to include some other favourite loads for the .458 that have been worked up in my old Super Grade Model 70 with 22" barrel.

My personal favourite load for all-round use locally in the .458 is comprised of the Barnes X 300-grain bullet and 75 grains of AR2207. This load chronographed at 2805fps, 150fps faster than what my rifle produced. Because of this, I chronographed some other rifles with known loads to ascertain whether my Oehler had mis-read the velocities. They had not. The loads and velocities were legitimate. This was the fastest .458 Magnum I had ever tested.

The next load I tested used the 550-grain Woodleigh Weldcore bullet - another favourite because it loads easily into the short case of the .458 and with a charge of 74 grains of AR 2206, yielded velocities averaging 2111fps, which generated a very serious 5445ft/lbs of energy and is enough for all that can be hunted. Recoil with this load is very easy and not too heavy for the experienced shooter.

The last load I chronographed is not ideally suited to the short .458 case, as the bullet is very long at 1.614" or 41mm and encroaches too much on available powder space. A compressed load using 72 grains of AR2206 with the Barnes Traditional 600-grain bullet gave velocities of 1978fps for 5214ft/lbs of energy.

These are all very serious loads for hunting dangerous game at close quarters or our largest deer in timber country. Of the lot, I prefer the 300 or 400 Barnes X bullets for general hunting with a step up to the 550-grain Woodleigh when dangerous game is considered.

Overall, I was very pleased with this rifle. Its finish, performance, cosmetics and handling characteristics were everything most hunters would like in this type of rifle. I am pleased to endorse the Brno 550 as a very worthwhile consideration for any hunter contemplating a larger bore rifle for both local and international hunting


JW