Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What powder does Weatherby use??

Just a note of interest.

The 280 Ross MKIII rifle carried by the canadins in WW1
suffered from bolt blowback. If the bolt was disassembled and then reassemebled incorrectly the bolt would appear to close but the bolt head would not go into the keyways.
When fired the bolt would blow back into the face of the
shooter.

Mike--The bolt handle is the puzzle. and I know that is why
you asked the question.Being it is a forging along with bolt it could have been defective.Like motor crankshafts that are forgings, I have seen two break for no good reason.If the
handles are close to abutments on Wea as poster says then
they could get beat up as all the lugs set back from many firings and if there was fault in the forging of the handle base
it is possible that it could have been be stress cracked
wher there was a weak spot, and let loose when the others failed and it had to take the whole
load.I checked the handles on my Ruger and Enfields,
that I used in load testing my wildcats, before I put extra
bearing surface on them, with a
hard rap from a hammer and they didn't move.Just to
be safe.Sure is a puzzle...Ed.

Ed,

If the bolt penetrated under the shooter's eye and went to his lower neck then I can't see how the bolt handle was still there. But I still can't see how the rifle would have been functioning with the bolt handle damaged enough for it not to hold. Would you be able to open the bolt after a shot?

Which brings me back to either

1) The rifle had some fault.

2) The story is only partly true.

However, I remain to be convinced that it was a combination of Wby ammo, 9 lugs and a "normal" Wby rifle.

Something else to consider. The shooter was shooting prone so it is highly unlikely that it was a 378, 416 or 460 Wby. It was many years ago so is also unlikley to be a 30/378 so that of course leaves us with the H&H case head.

Also, the fact that he was sighting the rifle in prone instead of from a bench would suggest he was not a gun nut who would be firing lots and lots of shots.

Anyway, as long as my new 378s that should be here in May don't let the bolt out to wander around the place on their own <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Mr. Howell,

Noone has questioned your motives or used perjorative
name-calling as you are doing. Ad hominem attacks
and snide twisting of your interlocutor's points do you no
service as a professional in the trade. Your expertise ought
to be evident in presentation of facts.

The first question remains open. Are Weatherby factory rounds
safe? Of course, the topic now has been expanded to include
Weatherby rifles.

Your comments 'suggest' -- not prove -- that they are not,
based on hypthoses -- maybe valid -- growing out of your
technical knowledge and observations and two reported accidents
with no direct evidence on their root causes. While interesting
and worth pursuing, these are still opinions that do not prove
anything.

We still need statistically significant data on failures
or compelling direct test results. An explanation of the large
numbers of those products in regular use w/o evident dire
results also would also be useful.

Unsafe is unsafe. Unsafe rifles using unsafe ammo on the
scale suggested here should be failing all the time. Why
aren't they?

What about you Weatherby owners out there? How many of you
have had direct -- not second-hand -- experience of a
structurally failed rifle caused by unsafe factory rounds?

I am willing to be convinced by facts. I am too old and
experienced in sorting out wheat and chaff to be buffaloed
by theories and bombast.

1B

Mike-I think to get bolt out if lugs fail, the handle has to come
off also if it is in the groove, and I think that may be possible if it had a fault.Or the abutment had a fault.If bolt handle was only .003 away from abutment it would be easy for lugs to set back that much, and handle start acting like lug, getting beat on with firings.And still cycle right.And if faulty may have stress cracked.I know it it was not faulty you couldn't crack
it from my own experience using bolt handle as an extra thrust surface, unless all other lugs had cracked.That is what Ken is thinking. Those small case hardened lug are not going to deform and allow others too pick up thrust as bolt moves back, I think they will crack if only a few bear at a time.
And maybe due to all these things it was no longer a
normal Weatherby rifle.That term is the crux of what went wrong in these incidents.
The fact that he was shooting prone perhaps got a slug of dirt
in for obstruction.Out in sun case got hot.Or operator error as alluded to above with bolt partly out of battery, when it went
off..Weird things can happen..
You have great fun with your
new rifles, and I don't think you as a knowledgeable shooter/ reloader will have problems...Ed.

Everyone who knows me can tell you that I'm worlds easier to get along with than the average or typical old coot my age. But alleging that I'm BSing, stupid, biased, gullible, or lying when I present serious facts and carefully formed analysis is not the surest way to attract my sweetest smile or warmest welcome. Au contraire, IMO, such allegations or suggestions invite firm resistance, strong words, and little or no civility.

Hindsight indicates that my chief error here was posting what amounts to unforgivable heresy in the eyes of those who worship Weatherby, then trying to reason calmly and sanely with one of that cult's dedicated high priests. I don't give a fancy flip one way or another whether Weatherby's stuff is the best or the worst that ever came along.

It's clear, OTOH, that I've been facing-off with at least one who obviously can't bear to think that anything Weatherby is less than the ultimate in perfection. The total absence of bias that enabled me to reason as I did, compared with the absolute rule of worshipful bias against it, should tell you something about both the probable validity of my conjecture and the denunciation heaped upon it here.

Sorry, but I can't see how criticism of my tone of voice is any substitute for solid, fact-based, logical rebuttal. But I can see how someone, given the inability to provide the latter, has only the former to fall back onto if he feels compelled to rebuke me.

I do see your point to this extent -- I will say no more here about any of this. Sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs bite! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ken,

Those that know me are very well aware that I am not biased to Wby actions. An opinion whichI have voiced many times both in person and on forums is that I think the Wby action suffers design problems which are a product of the marketing requirement. Poor primary extraction due to the 54 degree bolt lift, rear scope mount holes that are bit shallow and caused by the desire to use a Rem 700 rear receiver dimension but then use up a substantial proportion of the metal to accomodate the large diamter bolt. The front action screw up into a deep recoil lug which leaves little stock material between the clamping of the floor plate and bottom of the recoil lug which makes it quite awkward to put some sort of pillar in there if wood is crushing. The very short bedding platform behind the recoil lug caused by the long magazine requirement in what is a Rem 700 length receiver deprived Wby of being able to place the front screw through the bedding platform, which is a superior system as used in both Rem 700 and M70. Biased to Wby, I don't think so.

You appear to have forgotten that I said let's machine the locking lugs off the action. I through Wby advertising in the bin.

You brought to the table something which on your own admission was heresay. You discussed locking lugs but failed to even raise the issue of the integral bolt handle, a lock up which Silver_Bullet calculated as being 56% of the area of the 9 small locking lugs.

If you read the thread you will see the premise for my doubt was mainly based on the integral bolt handle, something common to several actions.

In short, if your example had been based on a Sako or Howa my response would have been the same as in either case the integral bolt is there.

Mike

Hi, Mike!

Hope all's well with you and yours, now and ever! And that Anno Domini 2004 turns out to be the best year of your life!

Ken,

Same wishes to you and yours as well.

It is 8.30pm Saturday night out here and I am going to watch a movie. I hope I don't dream about bolt handles tonight. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mike

A couple of points are in order. Weatherby tried several sources for his actions, always switching
to improve "quality control". Perhaps some locking lugs will experience brittle fracture before they
yeild. Very few Weatherby rifle have been fired a lot. This is due to recoil, noise, and cost ($4 a pop).
Maybe they arent all that safe after all.
Good luck!

IRV,
You have made some interesting points.

"Weatherby tried several sources for his actions, always switching to improve "quality control".

I think you will find that the reasons Weatherby changed places to manufacture its rifles is more to do with the cost of manufacture .Not concerns of any safety issues of the product.


The improvement of quality control is a by product of current manufacturing techniques,computerised machinery etc.
"Very few Weatherby rifle have been fired a lot. "

I guess I have been lucky in having been able to shoot 1000's of rounds thru different Weatherby rifles and have shooting friends that have done the same.
MIKE 375 for example would be a good guy to chat to about shooting lots of rounds thru Weatherby rifles and other brands of rifles chambered in 375 H&H.
So far the only problems I have seen photo's of or heard about other than plugged barrel damage from a foreign object is a broken extractor due to an overload.
This is why the example by Mr Howell is of great interest to me .It is the first example I have heard about where a Weatherby rifle has come apart ,reported by a reputable firearms person.

One of the benefits of living down under is that we have the opportunity to participate in feral animal control,some people shooting hundreds and some times thousands of rounds a year,not quite like the hunting in your country where I understand only very few animals maybe taken a year .

"This is due to recoil, noise, and cost ($4 a pop)."

If you are keen enough the price of admission is never a problem.You should try a 257WBY ,very little recoil,no more noise than say a 270 WIN,very effective at all sane hunting ranges on suitable sized critters.
If you only need one or 2 shots even at $4 each its still a bargain.

"Perhaps some locking lugs will experience brittle fracture before they yeild."
Anything is possible,but this is also true of any action.


"Maybe they arent all that safe after all."

If you have any more documented examples of Weatherby rifles that have been defective or injured the shooter due to any manufacturing or factory ammunition problems please feel free to let us know.

Enjoy your day,
Regards,
Charlie

irv,



I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. However, I think there are also some factors that may mean a higher percentage of Wbys get hammered than is the case with other actions.



Firstly are the chamberings. People with 257 Wbys etc are far more likley to chase the top velocity than is the case for other calibres. People chasing both velocity and accuracy will fire more shots than someone just chasing accuracy.



Secondly, the Wby action has been used so much for big wildcats, most notably the 30/378 and 338/378 before they were factory rounds. A Wby rifle in say 257 or 300 is very easy to have converted to a 30/378 or 338/378. The Wby action also has a longer magazine than the M70 or Rem 700 and so is a natural for people doing 7mm STWs, 300 Jarrets etc where they want bullets seated out. I think you would agree that shooters with these type of calibre will do far more testing than the average owner of a Ruger 30/06.



Lastly, there is one other thing that might be worthy of consideration.



I think that just about everyone would agree that advertising and promotion has its share of BS. However, in general the product will tend towards what is advertised rather than away from what is advertised. So Remington might promote their Sendero as man's answer to any and all accuracy problems which of course will be BS. But on average the Sendero is going to be more accurate than most other light barreled factory rifles. Given how strong Wby's promotion is of the action being very strong and safe I think it is unlikley as some of the posters on this thread have suggested that it is in fact a poor action for safety as compared to other actions.



While some of Wby's claims for action strength are undoubtedly BS, it is reasonable to say that the Wby action will be up at the top of list for "safe actions to use" with over loaded ammo and all evidence would indicate that it has been well tried in this regard. I know I have made my own personal contribution field testing its strength and safety <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



Mike

Mike-Neighbor and his brother have shot thousands of rounds rthrough their 460s.They reload.They say that most of their lugs bear even because they checked them/When they were new.Both are knowledgeable gunnuts.They still have about .003 clearance
from bolt handle to abutment.So it is a case I think of most Weatherbys bearing on most of the lugs ok, and some that don't which may give a problem if too few are holding to start with.The term you use "normal' is the crux.And i am sure that there are a few of any brand of different designs,that may not have good fit and bearing of the lugs.And we really hope nothing goes wrong.Their is dozens of two lug types. some 3 lugs, 4 lugs, 5 lugs, 6 lugs,other 9 lugs, and all these types with rear locking also, so I am sure it isn't all perfect with Weatherby's competition.And again we hope nothing goes
wrong..Ed.

Charlie, thanks for the response...........I stewed over that one myself.

Ed,

It is a pity we don't have the dollars to line several of each action up and then get stuck into them.

A gunsmith out here whose father was probably Australia's version of PO Ackley always use to say the M17 was the best if you had a ridiculous overload.

This bloke, he died a few years ago, use to test different wildcats with the extractor and stock off the M17.

When I was about 20, now 55, this gunsmith and myself did quite a bit of testing. I knew him very well because my father and him were very good friends (Charlie, if you are reading this I am referring to Don Black)

The real suprise package is the 303 SMLE. They won't shoot for [bleep] with high pressure loads but don't believe for one moment that a big load willl take one apart.

By the way, what is your feeling of the strength of the Wby receiver as a result of the very small locking lug recesses?

Mike

For another input on this point.., see page 6 of Rifle's
Handloader magazine, no. 24 of August 2003.

"I have yet to receive a communication from anyone claiming
a factory load blew up a gun of any kind." Dave Scovill,
editor in chief. (He goes on to cover some handloading/user
errors that have had this result.)

1B

Of course, if Weatherby ammo cost less than it does now, and brass wasnt so expensive, plus maybe the rifles were somewhat more competitive with current factory offerings, I suspect there would be a whole bunch more fans and shooters from a hunting perspective of Weatherby rifles, and cartridges. It is amusing that most are trying to push the envelope to gain maximum velocity out of their standard cartridge, when all one needs to do in many cases, not all, is take advantage of the weatherby cartridges.

Mike-yes the SMLE is stronger than people think.Perfect for
40-45,000 psi loaded 45-70 or 45-90. The small lug recesses
don't weaken the Wea reciever any more than the wide recesses on my Ruger or Enfield.Overall ouside diameter is about the same as Ruger.So the only troubling thing,
that bothers me, is if too few lugs are bearing, at the start of the rifles life.And it is like you say, be nice to have piles of extra actions to run blowup and overload tests on..Ed.

I can remember blowing the primer out of it's pocket with factory ammo on my then new 240 Weatherby Magnum, Mk. V. When I took the ammo back to the dealer, he took it and complained to the Weatherby rep. The rep told him, "if you don't like or ammo, don't shoot it." I was not given a refund or any more ammo. The rep wasn't interested in passing the bad ammo on to the factory.
I will not buy any ammo with the Weatherby headstamp to this day. E

Rumur I am hearing is Weatherby is in serious financial straits as we speak.