Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Internets Rifle Accuracy

OK, answer this for me. My most accurate rifle is my Tikka 30-06. I don't measure every group I fire, usually the small ones, but I can't recall it ever shooting a group larger than 1 3/4". This with some military surplus ammo. With generic factory ammo such as Remington core-lokts it "USUALLY" groups right at 1" or slightly less. I say usually because I do get maybe 1 out of 10 groups that is 1 1/2" because of obvious shooter error. With premium factory ammo or reloads it "USUALLY" comes in at under 1", quite often approaching 1/2". Once again, because of obvious shooter error I will get a group of 1 1/2" on rare occasions. I get the 1/2" groups far more often than 1 1/2" and my best ever group is 3/8". When asked, I tell people it is a sub 1" gun. Is this not a fair statement.

What evidence do you have that the large groups are indeed "shooter error"? In almost any population of groups, a few will be very large and a few will be very small. It is a statistical reality, and can be caused by ammunition inconsistencies just as easily as by "shooter error".

But why discount the "shooter error" groups at all? Is not the shooter's skill instrumental in obtaining any group size? In competition or hunting, actual results count, not what we want to think happens. If you do not measure all groups and consider them, then you do not really know the expected accuracy of your rifle. If you fire twenty groups, varying in size from 1/4" to 2" but with an average of 1 moa, then most shooters would consider that to be a 1" rifle.

If you choose to only include those groups fired on windless days, then all you can say is that your rifle, with you firing it, can group 1" on windless days. You have no idea how you'd group on windy days, or days with mirrage, or on days that you didn't feel good. How many competitions or varmint hunts are done only on windless days? Do you cancel your hunt because you felt a little "off" that day? Consider the accuracy of your rifle under all conditions that you will encounter when shooting it, or you are just fooling yourself.


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It's the BIGGEST group a rifle shoots that matters. That's all you can depend on.

Take a stock 308 heavy barrle like varmints mentioned, run Federal GMM in it and it'll be sub moa all day long generally speaking... IE at least most of the rifles will be, have to make room for lemons...

As to fliers, I dont' know what that has to do with the rifles accuracy, the shooter doesn't reflect the accuracy of the rifle. I have called fliers where they are called off, no one is perfect, but a NON called flier is part of an actual group.

When shooting competitively I shot 10 shot groups at 300 yards for testing ammo as we shot in no less than 10 shot strings. AR15 service rifle. It was common in load work to find groups of 10 larger than 3 inches. It was also very easy to get every barrel I've ever had to 2 inches or less at 300 for 10 shots. Not with factory ammo of course.

If you don't know how wind and mirage affect your groups, then you really don't know but the tip of the iceberg about shooting. Not that you can beat them all the time, but you sure better understand that a group thats over average size in bad conditions only means conditions are bad, not the rifle.

BTW my comments are directed at no one specifically here. Just general comments.

Jeff

Bob,

I have had a couple of bolt rifles (including Rems) that just didn't want to shoot better than 1.5" groups, even when I used benchrest loading methods. While it may have been possible to keep trying new and different stuff and evntually find a load that would stay onder MOA, it just wasn't worth the effort to me.

If I can't get a rifle to shoot for me MY way in a couple hundred rounds, I'll get rid of it and move on. At this point, I am more interested in finding a rifle that fits my loading methods than finding a load that fits the rifle...........

As all of us that hunt much know , sometimes (Usually) field conditions are less than perfect. Being able to make a quick shot when your huffing and puffing after climbing up/down, or scrambling into a better position cus the animal moved, our shots are rarely MOA per real life conditions. But the obsession to find a gun that will shoot MOA under the best of conditions means, that you have taken most of the mechanical error out of the gun! The mistakes you make are human mistakes. In contrast a gun that shoots 2" groups at 100 and 4" groups at 200 , and at 300 yards..well you get the picture. The margin for error is greatly reduced when you know what the gun is truly capable of. I obsess and shoot enough that I remove the gun/ammo from the equation, at least mentally. The rest lies on my shoulders to do my part. Once a gun has met my criteria for accuracy with said loads, thats when I head to the range with a backpack, some clays or water bottles and place them at the differing ranges from 100-330 yards and practise real life shots from real life positions. That in itself builds far more confidence than teh target shooting. Just the other day I found the laod that I want to use for my 06 and once the groups were very good at 100 I moved the target to 200 (220 actually). Once the groups were good there I moved the target to 300. I shot with crosshairs on center target, confirmed my drop at that range and then played with my own perceptions that would compensate for the drop. After 3-4 shots of what I would call precision acccuracy at that range, notes were taken and my work is done. The rest of my range time with that gun will be spent having fun, and challenging myself. Nowhere in that equation does a MOA rifle not make things easier!

I believe that the accuracy potential of the rifle and the accuracy potential of the shooter are 2 different things and should be viewed separately. If I can shoot a 1" or smaller group 9 out of 10 times with my rifle and the average group size is less than 1" I think it is safe to say it is a sub 1" gun. My wife has never fired a centerfire rifle and she may not be able to get a group of under 3" with the same rifle. A better shot than I, after developing better loads may be able to shoot groups consistently less than 1/2". What is the accuracy potential of the rifle?

Sorry it has taken me so long to answer. For some reason, I don't get notification of responses to threads on this forum.

DuPont IMR 4350, and others, was originally made in the US. The physical tube size of what they extruded was larger than the Canadian variety DuPont also offered in the 1980s and later.

A year or so ago, I weighed a full case of powder in R-P 6mm, using different powders from different vintages.

H4831SC 53.5 gr
1974 DuPont IMR 4831 48.4 gr
2003 IMR IMR 4831 52.3 gr
1973 DuPont IMR 3031 47.2 gr
2003 IMR IMR 3031 49.7 gr.

The reason I noticed this was during a loading session of duplicating 7mm Mag loads we had been using since about 1965. My dad pretty well insisted on a case full of powder and what I loaded with IMR IMR 4350 didn't come up in the shoulder very far. That was very uncharacteristic, so I checked further. The newer IMR 4350 shoots within 10 fps of the old powder (in limited testing), but uses less case capacity for the same weight of powder.

A cap full of powder from each of the old metal cans clearly shows a difference in tube size.

My obsevation in regards to internet and accuracy, is that everyone that has access to the internet doesn't have anyone looking over their shoulder when their tiny groups are being shot.

Some of these internet wizards also show up at gunshows with the same claims of groups the size of their little fingernail. I know of one gunwriter that has offered $20.00 for every group they shoot that makes their claim. He then asks them to pay him $1.00 for every group they shoot that doesn't measure up. To date, he has had no takers.

I don't have very many sub 1 inch guns. If you talk to these same guys, you will find that they have 4 wheel drive pickups that get 22 miles/gallon and their progressive reloaders never foul up. Me, well I continue to be cursed with inaccurate guns, reloaders that screw up on occaision and a pickup that gets 14 miles/gallon.

If you spend a lot of time on here(24CF),you see that a lot of guys are getting very fine accuracy from a lot of different kinds of rifles, both factory and custom.I think the big reasons are better understanding by manufacturers of what it takes to make rifles shoot well,better scopes, and better components.

Ruger is a classic example.For years they used barrels from an outside source that produced spotty accuracy. Friends and shooters I knew stayed away from Rugers in droves.These days, they make their barrels with the same hammer forging machines used by Remington and Winchester(before it closed),and Rugers seem to shoot with everything else today.

I used to see old-timers at the range who performed all kinds of tricks to get pre64 M70's to shoot, even bedding barrel channels with caulking compound to "dampen barrel vibrations", etc.I have owned slews of pre 64's and they have generally all shot very well with the modern components I have fed them.So, I never understood the problems the oldtimers complained about.

I have been handloading for over 35 years now,so my experience with factory ammo is a bit thin; but I can pretty much count on picking up a box of Fusions or Federal Premiums and generally get really fine accuracy in most of my rifles today.And the velocity is more in line with what you'd expect from the cartridge. This was not always true.

There are still problems; you can take the best rifle components in the world,improperly assemble them,and have an inaccurate rifle.A buddy has a 280 built on a pre 64 M70 action, Kreiger barrel,and Brown Precision stock that was built in the 80's; would not shoot for crap. I told him I suspected it was not assembled well.He took it to our gunsmith, who is a match shooter and understands accuracy.He tore it apart, recrowned the barrel,trued up the lugs, rechambered, and faced off the barrel and receiver. Then he rebbeded it. The thing is now a drill with 140 TSX bullets.

We can see from looking at the experiences here that shooters know more,and demand more today.Some manufacturers "get it", and some don't,and if they don't they'll hear about it.Look at Kimbers as an example;some shoot great,and others shoot lousy, feed lousy,etc. This tells me it's either the barrels, or assembly.I suspect they'll get it right eventually....

Thanks for the explanation. It was mostly an academic interest since these days I mostly use Hodgdon 4350 in place of the IMR4350. With regard to my bigger cased rifles 4350 of either brand has not been my preference for a long time so I probably haven't been paying much attention to the structure of the powder.
Jim

I used to shoot inch and a half groups pretty regularly out of a lot of my rifles. Then I got connected to the internet, and my groups shrunk almost immediately.

But there is a lot of good information on sites like this one to help a person with accuracy issues, whether it is load development or taming the nut loose behind the wheel.

Most of my rifles will shoot minute or just sub-minute on a good day with the right load. Some of them shoot better, consistently. And all of my rifles are box stock. No maney for expensive customs or smith trips.

3 shots test the rifle, 5 shots test the shooter as some say.

So, who cares about statistical groups with a "hunting rifle" as the first shot is what really counts, right?

I think I will change my outlook on this and show my
"COLD BORE TARGETS".

I shoot one shot, then wait 5 minutes till the bore goes cold then shoot another shot and then another, and so forth.

This target is a cold bore shot target. I think my hunting rifle will do just fine in the hunting fields.

This target as I've shown below is a cold bore target!



[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_0181.jpg[/img][/img]

yup! That'll do jess fine.

You MUST have been shooting an A-Bolt.

HA!

You never know!

I would be a closet shooter if I owned one.

Steve,
I don't know if the internet has improved shooting or not but it certainly seems so.
From what I can tell most custom hunting rifles in a magnum chambering shoot just about as well as my BR rifles.
Most Savages in varmint chamberings shoot better than the best BR rifle I ever owned!
The average factory hunting rifle will easily match my long range target rifles. In fact, I've begun to wonder if I shouldn't just get rid of those heavy rifles with the Hart and Shilen barrels and pick up a couple A-bolts and maybe a Savage.
It would be easier to carry them up to the firing line and, since they would do just fine with factory ammo, I might be able to eschew the drudgery of reloading.
Often, after reading about the performance capabilities of the internet rifles, I have to hold myself back to keep from going downstairs and taking a hammer to mine.
I consider myself to have been very fortunate over the last few years. I've managed to win my share of tinware and awards at various matches. I've been fortunate in that the internet shooters and rifles have nothing to proove so they don't come to matches. Otherwise, I'd never win a damn thing! GD

Well said greydog, well said.

I do feel sorry for you guys who spend $500.00 on a custom barrel
when all you have to do is JB a $20.00 factory tube 100 x and have it shoot just as good.


That's got to hurt when you see us cheap bastons do that, but then maybe not.

My take on this is pretty simple. Humans are storytellers and it has been made easier by the Internets.

Before we had the ability to instantly communicate with thousands of others around the world, most of us judged rifle accuracy on our own experience or what we read in a magazine. That, and inputs from a few of our friends/acquaintances. Now, we can read about performance from people all around the globe.

We read stories posted by all kinds of people - rich and poor, seasoned and starting shooters, the competent and incompetent. Many using the same rifle or cartridge, but in wildly different areas of the planet against varying types of game. We don't always know who these people are.

Posting comments and impressions is the purpose of Internets forums, but, as we are so often reminded, we have to take what we read with a grain of salt. Some posters don't have the piece of equipment or cartridge in question, but we get their opinion too. Others don't have the expertise; that is, the knowledge of the animal, terrain hunted or cartridge used.

While we all know that technology continues to improve, I wonder how much of it is actually equipment related versus better story telling.

Steve,
Interesting subject.
I worked at Federal Cartridge years ago and the policy was to pull ammo off the production line and shoot it at 200 yds underground.
They would shoot 4 10 shot strings. They fired from a machine rest with a piece of wire to pull the trigger.
Different calibers were held to different standards.

By the end of 40 rounds the barrel would get hot and dirty, I would imagine. I can't remember how they dealt with these variables?

What I care about is where does the first round go out of a cold clean barrel. I never need to shoot a game animal three times since I got my 35 Whelen.
whelennut