Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 5.56/223 LACKS PUNCH/knockdown??????

seems like every time I look up info on the AR15/M4/M16 you eventually find referances to the lack of knockdown and guys wishing they had a 308 win,6.5 grendal ETC.
when the first AR15s were used in viet nam they were very effective WHILE they were still functional, and the main complaint was due to jams and functioning issues, once those were resolved thru chrome lined barrels and more frequent cleaning.
now Im well able to beleive that there isolated incedences where guys hit center mass with a 223 and mil. spec. ammo can shrug it off for a few seconds or even minutes but without body armor I can,t see decent hits not proving to be fatal in a few minutes, Ive seen DEER shrug off a hit from a 30/06 for a few seconds before it even looked like there was any damage done.
but what happends to those combatants after a few minutes?, it the 223 rem
5.56 ammo really that pathetic that hits don,t prove fatal?

anyone with experiance here!
do the well hit combatants not only shrug it off but continue to function and keep fighting minutes or hours later.

Depends In Viet Nam Charlie would wrap the body with strips of truck innertube tie off main arteries and smoke a lot of opium. Before an assault, so you would see some five foot nothing slope take several hits center mass and keep on coming at you, my nephew was in Somolia and he told me about the same thing from the skinnies. Don't know abou the Arabs we are fighting now since I have no relations in country yet, my SIL is schedualed to go with in a year, and my Grandson is talking about enlisting in the Corps after High School (Family tradition)
As far as the 5.56/223 lacking knock down, yea, that is why many States do not allow it for deer. If it is problimatic for a 150 lbs white tail then it is not going to be any more deadly on a human. Add to that, the fact that humans can think and have emotions. Where an animal will lay down and bleed out a Human may coninueto fight depending on the degree of fanatisim. Intoxication or just plain hatred.

I purchased an AR about 6 weeks ago, so I have only limited experience. I have an A3 with a 16" barrel. However, in the last 10 days I have had opportunity to shoot and kill 4 feral hogs. The first was a 270-300# boar at 75yds, shot in the neck with 55gr jacketed HP, died instantly. The other 3 were smaller shoats at about 40 yds. The first died with one 62gr FMJ, the second on the run with one shot to the shoulder. However, the 3rd pig was still running after firing 3 shots at him. Finally, dropped with the 4th. I was initially disgusted at missing 3 in a row until I looked closer and saw 3 neat little holes in the shoulder. One shot broke a front leg. My guess is that between the non-expanding FMJs and the grit of a feral hog, he was just tough enough to keep going. The beauty part is that with the AR and Eotech sight, I was able to put 4 rounds in a running hog at 40yds in the time that it took him to run about 10feet. Personally, I am going to stick with the 55gr PSP for most all application to get more expansion. Possibly keep a 1000 rds of jacketed HP for other applications. But am not impressed with the killing potential of the FMJ. I know the military uses them.
That said, I have a buddy here in S. Tx that kills hundreds of hogs out of a helicopter. He uses exclusively Wolf FMJ (I think 62 gr). But they only try to gut shoot them and let them die in the brush. His reasoning is that shooting out of a moving vehicle at a running target, and he can't catch his brass to reload.
I am waiting for the chance to try some of that fun.
All in all, I am very satisfied with the AR-15 (223) and feel pretty well armed in any emergency and pretty comfortable in most hunting situations.
But remember, I am only a newby to the AR's

I've got two comments. First,if you're serious about hunting hogs with a .223 I'd suggest you try the Barnes 62gr TSX, not that FMJ crap. Secondly, your pard who's gut shooting hogs from a chopper by using the wrong ammo and poor shot placement should hang his head in shame. Intentionally wounding any animal is deplorable, pest or not.

+1, what 222Rem says. Intentionally wounding an animal is plain cruelty and your pardner is dead wrong at what he is doing. Additionally if you have done any hunting at all you should know better than to use a FMJ bullet for hunting. The USA has to use them in war due to Geneva convention, you do not. This is the "wrongest" post I have seen here in a while.

There are a lot of people that use .22 centerfires on this forum with proper bullets to take deer size animals, they seem to have about the same success as people using larger bore rifles. In some cases they have better success as they are able to shoot the rifles better with their lower recoil.

On the hogs, I'm with ya totally, to SPECIFICALLY gut shoot them, someone needs a lesson out behind the barn...

and for brass, you can use a brass catcher...

As to shoot and let lay, I totally understand that and the fact that control shooting from a chopper you can't always hit, much less hit perfect but its gotta be done...

You guys are right. I am not advocating intentionally wounding any animal. I've always tried to make every shot kill immediately. You have also reminded me to be careful of what I say on a public platform. My point was mainly that the FMJ (IMHO)is not a good killing round. Thanks for the reminder.

This is my understanding of this, but I am by no means an expert:

It all comes down to wound characteristics. In Nam we were firing a lightly constructed 55gr bullet from a 20 inch barrel with a 1:12 twist at 3200 fps. It would enter Charlie and in about an inch and a half it would become unstable yaw and try to travel base first because this is most stable for a bullet in anything denser than air. The lightly constructed bullet would then fragment violently at its crimp point because it could not withstand the force applied to it as it �flipped�. These small high velocity fragments would cause a large �permanent� wound cavity.

When the Soviets adopted body armor, we switched to the steel core penetrator core 62 gr bullet. The 62 gr needed a faster twist to stabilize it. Some where there after, we started switching to the M4 with a shorter barrel and even faster rate of twist. This did two things. The faster twist made the bullets more stable. This means that they need to travel deeper in soft tissue before they upset and yaw. The shorter barrel means that they start out at a lower velocity and thus impact at a lower velocity. This all equates to less force applied to the bullet to cause fragmenting and less time to do it. Also, the fragments will be moving at a slower speed, which means that they not travel as far in the body. Instead of the violent fragmentation seen with the Nam era 55gr�s, you now see two of three large fragments.

The response to this was to go to heavier bullets, not because of the additional weight, but because the heavier bullets are longer and a longer bullet acts like a longer lever allowing the same force to brake the bullet and thus causes better fragmentation.

try blackhills 60 grain hornady V-max at 3100FPS, I bet it works for most any varment.

This post reminded me of a goat culling clip on youtube.com.....

Goat killer

What a job!!!

Use of FMJ ammunition has nothing to do with the Geneva convention. It was the Hague Accords that covered the ammunition that was to be acceptable.

It's not on par with most other calibers, in terms of stopping power. I can't say I know with any real amount of certainty how long it takes the average person shot in the gut with a 5.56mm bullet to die. However, I DO know that I'd rather be certain my weapon would kill/incapacitate the enemy IMMEDIATELY, rather then the next day.
Just saying.

OK whatever.

Plus the US uses bthp bullets in combat all the time....

Subject: Amigo's Post.

In the U.S. about 10% of the population hunts and about 10% are adamantly opposed to hunting. The remaining 80% can go either way. The practice of intentionally wounding any animal does nothing but increase the numbers and "ammunition" of the anti-hunting crowd. It is a sickening practice and does not warrant bragging.

Better read it again. New gun and don't use the FMJ like he did is advise, not bragging.

Another Latrine Lawyer.

Any Army Dog,Marine,Sailor or Airmen would know that the Hague Convention(of 1899 and the USA never signed as it outlawed submarines too,but use it as a guideline only)is the proper convention and the Geneva Convention deals only with treatment of combatants!

US SOCOM issues a 77grain HPBT Match bullet which was ok'd by JAG after the Lawyers found out that the reason of the HP was not for expansion.
Example:
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1
5.56x45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.

Cartridge, Caliber 7.62 mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118LR: 175-grain 7.62x51mm NATO Hollow Point Boat Tail round specifically designed for long-range sniping.

Cartridge, Caliber 7.62 mm, NATO, Match, M852: 168-grain 7.62x51mm NATO Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge, specifically designed for use in National Match competitions, later approved by US Army JAG for combat use by snipers.

Mike

FWIW:

I agree that the "knockdown" power issue is seen a lot in print.

I cannot comment on that, not having shot anyone.

However, I can relay a statement by a Vietnam combat vet from the M-14 Era. "the 308 knocks them down--NOW"

He had no use for the M-16, because it was not a fight stopper in his experience.

BMT

+1